Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:34 am

miamiman wrote:
Matthies wrote:Jesus H Christ

So Mr. Ronisky, a 25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail. Now, just days shy of graduation and with $150,000 of student loans, he plans to move back to his parents' home in San Diego and sell music and movies online.
"I wanted to use my education," he said. "But times change."


Way to be a go getter. Didn't get an summer offer, so you send out 50 WOW unsolicited resumes and when you get no response you give up, move back with your parents and sell music online. WTF. Hi I sent 50 resumes out, no jobs, ist all the economys fault guess that means I should give up now. But if they gave you 3k a week you would all the sudden become the go getter you could be but can't seem to be when you need to do something on your own? :roll:



please. can we stop perpetuating this myth that kids who are getting f*cked have done so on account of their own laziness? I have a close friend, a 2L at CLS, who has spammed maybe 200 law offices after getting no-offered at OCI. She has nothing. It's not like the 101st is that much more effective


Were they all in NYC? Did she try branching to other markets? Different practice areas?

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 11:37 am

All NYC. That definitely hurt her. But it's not like she exclusively sought BigLaw either. The market is just dead to some people, independent of issuing 50 or 500 resumes.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu May 06, 2010 11:39 am

miamiman wrote:All NYC. That definitely hurt her. But it's not like she exclusively sought BigLaw either. The market is just dead to some people, independent of issuing 50 or 500 resumes.

is she bottom third? i can't imagine many cls students with decent grades and good UGs would strike out completely in new york.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 11:40 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:
miamiman wrote:All NYC. That definitely hurt her. But it's not like she exclusively sought BigLaw either. The market is just dead to some people, independent of issuing 50 or 500 resumes.

is she bottom third? i can't imagine many cls students with decent grades and good UGs would strike out completely in new york.


I have no idea what her grades are.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 11:40 am

miamiman wrote:
please. can we stop perpetuating this myth that kids who are getting f*cked have done so on account of their own laziness? I have a close friend, a 2L at CLS, who has spammed maybe 200 law offices after getting no-offered at OCI. She has nothing. It's not like the 101st is that much more effective


Oh, ok then its not her fault at all its the schools, ABA, the economy. Two WORST WAYS to find a legal job: OCI and mass mailing unsolicted resumes.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby jnorsky » Thu May 06, 2010 11:41 am

I don't think reality is blurred outside the top three. People enrolled at schools like Columbia down to say NW sort of expect that if they do alright they will get a decent job. For the most part this is the case, but obviously there are outliers. I doubt many people going to one of these schools thinks they have the golden ticket like they used to, but I think it is still a good investment and if done properly can get you a great career, which I believe most will have coming from these schools even the way things are now.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 11:42 am

Yes, you're right: one of two worst ways to find a legal job at CLS is OCI.


you, sir, are officially retarded.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Always Credited » Thu May 06, 2010 11:44 am

Matthies wrote:
miamiman wrote:
please. can we stop perpetuating this myth that kids who are getting f*cked have done so on account of their own laziness? I have a close friend, a 2L at CLS, who has spammed maybe 200 law offices after getting no-offered at OCI. She has nothing. It's not like the 101st is that much more effective


Oh, ok then its not her fault at all its the schools, ABA, the economy. Two WORST WAYS to find a legal job: OCI and mass mailing unsolicted resumes.


I'm with Matthies on this one. I think if you did some reading into his post history and his reasons for feeling the way he does, you'd be a.) very impressed with the advice he gives, and b.) convinced he's not retarded, but rather just overcame a rather significant disability to find great success through networking.

But I don't know shit.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu May 06, 2010 11:46 am

miamiman wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:
miamiman wrote:All NYC. That definitely hurt her. But it's not like she exclusively sought BigLaw either. The market is just dead to some people, independent of issuing 50 or 500 resumes.

is she bottom third? i can't imagine many cls students with decent grades and good UGs would strike out completely in new york.


I have no idea what her grades are.

I really think that even in this economy a CLS student facing unemployment must really have done something wrong. From students I know there the expectation for the current 2L class is about 70% in biglaw or federal clerkships at graduation... similar to this last year's graduating class (about 65% with clerkships added in). If you add to that maybe 5-10% not interested in biglaw and working in PI, Governenment, or smaller firms then I think at CLS there will only be maybe 20% of the class trying and failing for biglaw. From my perspective that's not so scary.. even in a good economy I don't see why firms would want to hire somebody in the bottom quarter of a class even at a great school. I'm not going to law school with the hope of being rewarded with a top job even if i decide to be lazy, stupid, and passive.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu May 06, 2010 11:49 am

Matthies gives good advice in general, but to say that OCI is the worst way to find a job out of Columbia is obviously incorrect hyperbole.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu May 06, 2010 11:51 am

Stringer Bell wrote:Matthies gives good advice in general, but to say that OCI is the worst way to find a job out of Columbia is obviously incorrect hyperbole.

well he would really have no way of knowing what the oci at a school like columbia is like. oci at most schools outisde of the top20 are relatively useless.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 11:52 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:Matthies gives good advice in general, but to say that OCI is the worst way to find a job out of Columbia is obviously incorrect hyperbole.

well he would really have no way of knowing what the oci at a school like columbia is like. oci at most schools outisde of the top20 are relatively useless.



actually, he would have EVERY way of knowing what OCI was like at a school named Columbia provided the information is readily available -- and has been commented upon extensively -- by this community

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 11:56 am

miamiman wrote:Yes, you're right: one of two worst ways to find a legal job at CLS is OCI.


you, sir, are officially retarded.


Did OCI work for your freind? No. Is OCI better at t14 schools, yes, as good as it used to be, hell no. Do the the magority of law students go to t14 schools, no. Do the magority of law stduents find jobs through OCI, no. Do law fiems generally respond well to unsolicted e-mails for jobs they don't have, no. Is that what most everyone else is trying who struck out at OCI, yes.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:57 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Successful get rich schemes involve either:
1) winning the lottery
2) fraud/theft
3) an MBA or
4) an MD


MBA is fucked almost as badly as JD was, and MD is get rich slowly with tons of hard work.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 11:58 am

Matthies wrote:
miamiman wrote:Yes, you're right: one of two worst ways to find a legal job at CLS is OCI.


you, sir, are officially retarded.


Did OCI work for your freind? No. Is OCI better at t14 schools, yes, as good as it used to be, hell no. Do the the magority of law students go to t14 schools, no. Do the magority of law stduents find jobs through OCI, no. Do law fiems generally respond well to unsolicted e-mails for jobs they don't have, no. Is that what most everyone else is trying who struck out at OCI, yes.


Actually, as it turns out, the majority of law students at Columbia do find jobs through OCI. A meaty majority, as it turns out.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu May 06, 2010 11:59 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:even in a good economy I don't see why firms would want to hire somebody in the bottom quarter of a class even at a great school.


Would you rather have a player that is in the bottom 20% of the English Premiereship Soccer league or in the top 10% of Major League Soccer? This is what's tough to compare. Is bottom quarter at CLS better than top 1/3 at Fordham or top 10% at BLS? I mean, few if any Fordham students would have been accepted to CLS and students from BLS probably couldn't have even come close. I'm not arguing for or against any group, I'm just saying it's not insane for someone to hire a person that is near the bottom of the cream of the crop.



of Benito Cereno wrote:I'm not going to law school with the hope of being rewarded with a top job even if i decide to be lazy, stupid, and passive.


I doubt there are hardly any students at top law schools ITE that are lazy, stupid and passive. I really doubt that working hard guarantees you will be median or better.
Last edited by Stringer Bell on Thu May 06, 2010 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 12:00 pm

I often wonder when you read these articles if the individuals mentioned are applying for non-legal jobs in business or government or if they're "aiming too high." Obviously, you undertake a JD with the assumption that you will find a legal job given that it's a professional degree, however, it's still a widely respected advanced qualification. With things like IBR and PSLF, surely being open to pursuing a little bit more of an nontraditional career path is possible and ITE, could be advisable depending on the circumstances. Also, there are programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps which people could look into post-LS to defer loan payments and buy more time for the economy to recover. ITE you have to do what it takes to get by even if it isn't the ideal. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there's one thing this economy has been good for, it's been a definite reality check on many people's expectations.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 12:03 pm

miamiman wrote:
Matthies wrote:
miamiman wrote:Yes, you're right: one of two worst ways to find a legal job at CLS is OCI.


you, sir, are officially retarded.


Did OCI work for your freind? No. Is OCI better at t14 schools, yes, as good as it used to be, hell no. Do the the magority of law students go to t14 schools, no. Do the magority of law stduents find jobs through OCI, no. Do law fiems generally respond well to unsolicted e-mails for jobs they don't have, no. Is that what most everyone else is trying who struck out at OCI, yes.


Actually, as it turns out, the majority of law students at Columbia do find jobs through OCI. A meaty majority, as it turns out.


Note, nowhere did I say CLS, see what i underlined, and what i said, there are 200 law schools, 14 of which are in the top 14, which, even thought the LS choice was premsied in no small part becuase I SUCK at the math, still doe snot seem to = the magority of law students.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 06, 2010 12:08 pm

Umm....let's recap

1. I post an anecdote about a friend at CLS who struck out/has been otherwise unsuccessful in landing a job despite considerable effort on her part (rebutting your claim that NU 3L's sending out 50 resumes was grossly inadequate).

2. You counterclaim with, as I understood it, your friend is an idiot to rely upon OCI/mass resume spamming since they are the two worst ways of getting a job.

3. I reply with empirical data suggestive that CLS places a clear majority of its kids into jobs via OCI.

4. You deflect by generalizing the discussion again away from my friend and claim you were never referring specifically to my friend.
:roll: :roll:

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby T14_Scholly » Thu May 06, 2010 12:12 pm

Matthies wrote:Jesus H Christ

So Mr. Ronisky, a 25-year-old student at Chicago's Northwestern University School of Law, spent the fall sending 50 resumes to law firms and government agencies, to no avail. Now, just days shy of graduation and with $150,000 of student loans, he plans to move back to his parents' home in San Diego and sell music and movies online.
"I wanted to use my education," he said. "But times change."


Way to be a go getter. Didn't get an summer offer, so you send out 50 WOW unsolicited resumes and when you get no response you give up, move back with your parents and sell music online. WTF. Hi I sent 50 resumes out, no jobs, ist all the economys fault guess that means I should give up now. But if they gave you 3k a week you would all the sudden become the go getter you could be but can't seem to be when you need to do something on your own? :roll:


I'm sure he'll count as employed at graduation in the "business" category.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 06, 2010 12:18 pm

I'm at a top school and have seen many of my classmates struggle to find post-grad work. I can assure you that most of them are not aiming too high. That is, unless you consider applying for clerkships at low-level state courts, small law firms, and all types of legal, quasi-legal, and non-legal jobs aiming too high. For non-legal jobs, the JD can actually hurt more than it can help...the idea that it's some kind of all-purpose ticket to a decent job is largely a myth.

As an example, one of my classmates has applied for a bunch of entry level, $30-40K type jobs at universities, non-profits, and government that typically take people that only have a BA. Guess what? Rejected from all of them. Most non-legal employers do not want JDs because they think they are a flight risk once the economy improves or a legal job for them happens to pop up.

Peace Corps/AmeriCorps isn't the answer either. A lot of people here (at top schools) did these programs or something similar BEFORE law school. They are widely viewed as something you do BEFORE a professional degree by the vast majority of employers in most industries so you are not going to fit the hiring profile if you do it AFTER the professional degree.

Further, many law grads might not be eligible to do these programs at this point (used up their eligibility before), and even if they were, it probably isn't a good idea if they want to eventually practice law. The way the legal field works is that if you are out of the legal field for any length of time (say, about a year or more) right after graduation and passing the bar, odds are you face long odds trying to get into it later. Employers will see you, rightly or wrongly, as a "benched player" or someone who doesn't really want to practice law. Well, you can just get a non-legal job after that right? Maybe, but again you face long odds. See paragraph 2.



webbylu87 wrote:I often wonder when you read these articles if the individuals mentioned are applying for non-legal jobs in business or government or if they're "aiming too high." Obviously, you undertake a JD with the assumption that you will find a legal job given that it's a professional degree, however, it's still a widely respected advanced qualification. With things like IBR and PSLF, surely being open to pursuing a little bit more of an nontraditional career path is possible and ITE, could be advisable depending on the circumstances. Also, there are programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps which people could look into post-LS to defer loan payments and buy more time for the economy to recover. ITE you have to do what it takes to get by even if it isn't the ideal. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there's one thing this economy has been good for, it's been a definite reality check on many people's expectations.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu May 06, 2010 12:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at a top school and have seen many of my classmates struggle to find post-grad work. I can assure you that most of them are not aiming too high. That is, unless you consider applying for clerkships at low-level state courts, small law firms, and all types of legal, quasi-legal, and non-legal jobs aiming too high. For non-legal jobs, the JD can actually hurt more than it can help...the idea that it's some kind of all-purpose ticket to a decent job is largely a myth.

As an example, one of my classmates has applied for a bunch of entry level, $30-40K type jobs at universities, non-profits, and government that typically take people that only have a BA. Guess what? Rejected from all of them. Most non-legal employers do not want JDs because they think they are a flight risk once the economy improves or a legal job for them happens to pop up.

Peace Corps/AmeriCorps isn't the answer either. A lot of people here (at top schools) did these programs or something similar BEFORE law school. They are widely viewed as something you do BEFORE a professional degree by the vast majority of employers in most industries so you are not going to fit the hiring profile if you do it AFTER the professional degree.

Further, many law grads might not be eligible to do these programs at this point (used up their eligibility before), and even if they were, it probably isn't a good idea if they want to eventually practice law. The way the legal field works is that if you are out of the legal field for any length of time (say, about a year or more) right after graduation and passing the bar, odds are you face long odds trying to get into it later. Employers will see you, rightly or wrongly, as a "benched player" or someone who doesn't really want to practice law. Well, you can just get a non-legal job after that right? Maybe, but again you face long odds. See paragraph 2.



webbylu87 wrote:I often wonder when you read these articles if the individuals mentioned are applying for non-legal jobs in business or government or if they're "aiming too high." Obviously, you undertake a JD with the assumption that you will find a legal job given that it's a professional degree, however, it's still a widely respected advanced qualification. With things like IBR and PSLF, surely being open to pursuing a little bit more of an nontraditional career path is possible and ITE, could be advisable depending on the circumstances. Also, there are programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps which people could look into post-LS to defer loan payments and buy more time for the economy to recover. ITE you have to do what it takes to get by even if it isn't the ideal. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there's one thing this economy has been good for, it's been a definite reality check on many people's expectations.


"top school" is really often misapplied. if its not top10 its just a law school. if its below 50 its not a law school its just a retard tax. a school filled with 3.4/165 students is in now way a "top" school. i'm guessing you've misapplied the label.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 12:30 pm

I am not in any way saying the economy is not shitty, or that the legal world is not tighter than it has ever been. That of course is a major issue, but so is a lack of understanding of that by law students themselves who are not reacting to the changing legal market (as well as schools OCS offices who did not have to in the past work as hard to find their graduates jobs or graduates themselves who did not have to hustle as hard to find jobs).

It's not 2007 anymore, yet law students and even law graduates, conduct their legal job search as if it still was. The fundamental ways graduates find jobs have changed, yet law students understanding of that has not. people still look back at the most recent numbers 2009, 2008, 2007 and think that same game plan will work in 2010. It won't, and in part due to their lack of understanding of how the legal market has changed and the natural slowness of schools OCS to react, they don't know or it seems more often than not, can't understand why what worked for legions of graduates before them no longer works now.

Take a look at these OCI/Summer offer rates. there is a clear, and huge drop for 2009, and 2009 was much better than this year will be. its clear to everyone, except law students it seems, where the trend is heading. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/nalp-201 ... eneration/

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 06, 2010 12:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at a top school and have seen many of my classmates struggle to find post-grad work. I can assure you that most of them are not aiming too high. That is, unless you consider applying for clerkships at low-level state courts, small law firms, and all types of legal, quasi-legal, and non-legal jobs aiming too high. For non-legal jobs, the JD can actually hurt more than it can help...the idea that it's some kind of all-purpose ticket to a decent job is largely a myth.


Fair enough. I wasn't trying to imply that they are in fact aiming too high. It was more of a curiosity as to what the whole story/background of the quoted individual is.

Anonymous User wrote:Peace Corps/AmeriCorps isn't the answer either. A lot of people here (at top schools) did these programs or something similar BEFORE law school. They are widely viewed as something you do BEFORE a professional degree by the vast majority of employers in most industries so you are not going to fit the hiring profile if you do it AFTER the professional degree.

Further, many law grads might not be eligible to do these programs at this point (used up their eligibility before), and even if they were, it probably isn't a good idea if they want to eventually practice law. The way the legal field works is that if you are out of the legal field for any length of time (say, about a year or more) right after graduation and passing the bar, odds are you face long odds trying to get into it later. Employers will see you, rightly or wrongly, as a "benched player" or someone who doesn't really want to practice law. Well, you can just get a non-legal job after that right? Maybe, but again you face long odds. See paragraph 2.


This is all credited and I definitely agree. I will say though that there are AmeriCorps positions out there which are with legal organizations. They can be found and may not be a bad option. A lot of times these positions lead to full-time employment and have distinct benefits. Obviously, I wouldn't suggest AmeriCorps as a blanket recommendation to anyone who can't find a job but in certain situations they could be a good alternative to being totally SOL.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby BruinsFan » Thu May 06, 2010 12:34 pm

webbylu87 wrote:This article doesn't say anything we haven't heard already. That said, it still terrifies me all over again.


+1

but if you really want to be a lawyer then you go to law school.




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