Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

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09042014
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:31 pm

romothesavior wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also keep in mind that most of us biglaw c/o 2013 hopefuls aren't going to be waiting 3 years for an economic rebound. We're going to be doing OCI in less than a year and a half. Our OCI is in the fall of 2011.


Very true. But I certainly won't be going into OCI expecting to find a job through it. Although that'd be nice. I'd like to think at least most people will wisen up to the idea that OCI isn't the way to find a job anymore (for the most part).


Good mindset. I'm just trying to stamp out some of this unwarranted optimism about what things will be like for the c/o 2013. I do think things will be better, but it ain't gonna be like it used to.


It will be soon though. Whether it's '13, '14, or '15 it'll return to early 2000's numbers.

Mid to late 200X's were a bubble.

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webbylu87
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:33 pm

romothesavior wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also keep in mind that most of us biglaw c/o 2013 hopefuls aren't going to be waiting 3 years for an economic rebound. We're going to be doing OCI in less than a year and a half. Our OCI is in the fall of 2011.


Very true. But I certainly won't be going into OCI expecting to find a job through it. Although that'd be nice. I'd like to think at least most people will wisen up to the idea that OCI isn't the way to find a job anymore (for the most part).


Good mindset. I'm just trying to stamp out some of this unwarranted optimism about what things will be like for the c/o 2013. I do think things will be better, but it ain't gonna be like it used to.


I can appreciate that. I think writing the economy off as "it'll be better in 3 years" is very easy to do. And while I think there will be some truth to that and that in general the c/o 2013 will be looking at a better job market than the c/o 2009-2012, it's a very dangerous way to think. Relying on OCI isn't going to cut it.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby scionb4 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:37 pm

I'm actually glad that there are so many articles about how it's difficult for lawyers to find work right now. Considering it's difficult for EVERYBODY to get work, the more people being persuaded to not go into law the better. Then they can go into another career field that's even harder to get a job in since the whole job market is fucked, not just the legal market, and they'll wonder why the Hell they didn't go to law school.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby d34d9823 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:39 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I can appreciate that. I think writing the economy off as "it'll be better in 3 years" is very easy to do. And while I think there will be some truth to that and that in general the c/o 2013 will be looking at a better job market than the c/o 2009-2012, it's a very dangerous way to think. Relying on OCI isn't going to cut it.


In the interest of a balanced, accurate portrayal, I think we could do with a little less doom and gloom (not your post specifically but in general). The economy sucks right now, yes. But it seems like everyone is saying that the sky is falling when America has historically recovered very well from recessions. (and let's not jinx it, but from where I'm sitting, it looks like things are starting to turn around)

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby webbylu87 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:44 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:I can appreciate that. I think writing the economy off as "it'll be better in 3 years" is very easy to do. And while I think there will be some truth to that and that in general the c/o 2013 will be looking at a better job market than the c/o 2009-2012, it's a very dangerous way to think. Relying on OCI isn't going to cut it.


In the interest of a balanced, accurate portrayal, I think we could do with a little less doom and gloom (not your post specifically but in general). The economy sucks right now, yes. But it seems like everyone is saying that the sky is falling when America has historically recovered very well from recessions. (and let's not jinx it, but from where I'm sitting, it looks like things are starting to turn around)


Like I said, I hope you're right. Watch that optimism though. TLS doesn't like your kind very much.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 13, 2010 4:46 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also keep in mind that most of us biglaw c/o 2013 hopefuls aren't going to be waiting 3 years for an economic rebound. We're going to be doing OCI in less than a year and a half. Our OCI is in the fall of 2011.


Very true. But I certainly won't be going into OCI expecting to find a job through it. Although that'd be nice. I'd like to think at least most people will wisen up to the idea that OCI isn't the way to find a job anymore (for the most part).


Good mindset. I'm just trying to stamp out some of this unwarranted optimism about what things will be like for the c/o 2013. I do think things will be better, but it ain't gonna be like it used to.


It will be soon though. Whether it's '13, '14, or '15 it'll return to early 2000's numbers.

Mid to late 200X's were a bubble.


I really hope you're right, but I don't see a whole lot of evidence to support your position. Everything I have read on here and on ATL has suggested that hiring will continue to be low for the foreseeable future. Will it be better? Yes, probably. Substantially better? Doesn't sound like it.

09042014
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 4:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:
Very true. But I certainly won't be going into OCI expecting to find a job through it. Although that'd be nice. I'd like to think at least most people will wisen up to the idea that OCI isn't the way to find a job anymore (for the most part).


Good mindset. I'm just trying to stamp out some of this unwarranted optimism about what things will be like for the c/o 2013. I do think things will be better, but it ain't gonna be like it used to.


It will be soon though. Whether it's '13, '14, or '15 it'll return to early 2000's numbers.

Mid to late 200X's were a bubble.


I really hope you're right, but I don't see a whole lot of evidence to support your position. Everything I have read on here and on ATL has suggested that hiring will continue to be low for the foreseeable future. Will it be better? Yes, probably. Substantially better? Doesn't sound like it.


ATL is a scandal sheet. Unless something fundamentally changes in the legal market, hiring has to pick up eventually. Firms hired about half as many SA's for 2011 as they did for 2009. The market for legal work done hasn't been halved.

Investment banks (who got slammed worse than law firms) are already being to ramp up hiring.

Thought people should remember, outside the T14, even during the boom, there weren't big law jobs for anyone who wanted one. Median at WUSTL wasn't getting big law even in 2007.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 13, 2010 5:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Good mindset. I'm just trying to stamp out some of this unwarranted optimism about what things will be like for the c/o 2013. I do think things will be better, but it ain't gonna be like it used to.


It will be soon though. Whether it's '13, '14, or '15 it'll return to early 2000's numbers.

Mid to late 200X's were a bubble.


I really hope you're right, but I don't see a whole lot of evidence to support your position. Everything I have read on here and on ATL has suggested that hiring will continue to be low for the foreseeable future. Will it be better? Yes, probably. Substantially better? Doesn't sound like it.


ATL is a scandal sheet. Unless something fundamentally changes in the legal market, hiring has to pick up eventually. Firms hired about half as many SA's for 2011 as they did for 2009. The market for legal work done hasn't been halved.

Investment banks (who got slammed worse than law firms) are already being to ramp up hiring.

Thought people should remember, outside the T14, even during the boom, there weren't big law jobs for anyone who wanted one. Median at WUSTL wasn't getting big law even in 2007.


Not so subtle anti-romothesavior trolling? :D

But you are right.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 270910 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:ATL is a scandal sheet. Unless something fundamentally changes in the legal market, hiring has to pick up eventually. Firms hired about half as many SA's for 2011 as they did for 2009. The market for legal work done hasn't been halved.

Investment banks (who got slammed worse than law firms) are already being to ramp up hiring.

Thought people should remember, outside the T14, even during the boom, there weren't big law jobs for anyone who wanted one. Median at WUSTL wasn't getting big law even in 2007.


Quoted for truth.

There is actually a lot of evidence that there will be an increase in hiring. Firms have requested deferred associates back, firms have published strong profit numbers, deals are picking up, litigation is picking up, regulation is picking up, lobbying is picking up, deferral programs are ending so there's not a double-glut, offer rates were high, firms report being understaved, lateral hiring is picking up, more firms have registered for fall OCI than last year, firms that canceled 2010 summer programs are recruiting for summer 2011.

Now - none of that evidence is conclusive and the overall economy has issues. But really there isn't anything that suggests the legal market will get worse or fail to improve. I - like hopefully all others - are being extremely cautious and assuming that it won't recover (quickly). But the evidence is all pointing towards recovery, we just don't know how strong that evidence is yet.

I challenge somebody to provide one piece of evidence suggesting fall OCI will be as bad or worse than last year. The best people have to go on is "ITE AHHHHH DEAD BIGLAW AJHHHHH" and look, I'm screaming too and nobody should go to law school and debt and doom. But there isn't much concrete suggesting that things failed to turn the corner.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 13, 2010 5:07 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:ATL is a scandal sheet. Unless something fundamentally changes in the legal market, hiring has to pick up eventually. Firms hired about half as many SA's for 2011 as they did for 2009. The market for legal work done hasn't been halved.

Investment banks (who got slammed worse than law firms) are already being to ramp up hiring.

Thought people should remember, outside the T14, even during the boom, there weren't big law jobs for anyone who wanted one. Median at WUSTL wasn't getting big law even in 2007.


Quoted for truth.

There is actually a lot of evidence that there will be an increase in hiring. Firms have requested deferred associates back, firms have published strong profit numbers, deals are picking up, litigation is picking up, regulation is picking up, lobbying is picking up, deferral programs are ending so there's not a double-glut, offer rates were high, firms report being understaved, lateral hiring is picking up, more firms have registered for fall OCI than last year, firms that canceled 2010 summer programs are recruiting for summer 2011.

Now - none of that evidence is conclusive and the overall economy has issues. But really there isn't anything that suggests the legal market will get worse or fail to improve. I - like hopefully all others - are being extremely cautious and assuming that it won't recover (quickly). But the evidence is all pointing towards recovery, we just don't know how strong that evidence is yet.

I challenge somebody to provide one piece of evidence suggesting fall OCI will be as bad or worse than last year. The best people have to go on is "ITE AHHHHH DEAD BIGLAW AJHHHHH" and look, I'm screaming too and nobody should go to law school and debt and doom. But there isn't much concrete suggesting that things failed to turn the corner.


It isn't a question of it turning the corner or not getting better. I think it would be almost impossible for this year's OCI to be worse than the last one. Nobody is arguing that. The question is whether it will be substantially better, and I don't think there is a whole lot of evidence of that either.

But fwiw... I obviously hope you two are right!

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 270910 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:I don't think there is a whole lot of evidence of that either.


Yeah, that's really what it comes down to. Nobody has enough evidence right now... but a couple of firms jacking up their summer class will do a lot to ease the log jam, that's for sure. I just don't see any way Cravath only takes 2 dozen summers again this summer. Of course.... we'll find out.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:27 pm

A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 13, 2010 5:29 pm

Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, law student, fortune teller

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 13, 2010 5:29 pm

disco_barred wrote:There is actually a lot of evidence that there will be an increase in hiring. Firms have requested deferred associates back, firms have published strong profit numbers, deals are picking up, litigation is picking up, regulation is picking up, lobbying is picking up, deferral programs are ending so there's not a double-glut, offer rates were high, firms report being understaved, lateral hiring is picking up, more firms have registered for fall OCI than last year, firms that canceled 2010 summer programs are recruiting for summer 2011.

I'm a 1L at a T14 and have heard from career services that registration for OCI this August is already up 15% over last year and they're expecting even more firms to be registered by the end of June when they start bidding. I'm pessimistic, but hoping this is a good sign.

09042014
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:31 pm

miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, future law student, fortune teller, amateur doctor

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 13, 2010 5:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


DF, your arguments make a lot of sense, my friend. I hope you're right.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby miamiman » Thu May 13, 2010 5:35 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, future law student, fortune teller, amateur doctor , friend to all?????

09042014
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:38 pm

miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, future law student, fortune teller, amateur doctor , friend to all?????


Add in future human supreme, and I'll put it on my resume.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 270910 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
disco_barred wrote:There is actually a lot of evidence that there will be an increase in hiring. Firms have requested deferred associates back, firms have published strong profit numbers, deals are picking up, litigation is picking up, regulation is picking up, lobbying is picking up, deferral programs are ending so there's not a double-glut, offer rates were high, firms report being understaved, lateral hiring is picking up, more firms have registered for fall OCI than last year, firms that canceled 2010 summer programs are recruiting for summer 2011.

I'm a 1L at a T14 and have heard from career services that registration for OCI this August is already up 15% over last year and they're expecting even more firms to be registered by the end of June when they start bidding. I'm pessimistic, but hoping this is a good sign.


NY TO 190

Seriously... if you forced me to put my money down, I'd say the worst is over, and '12 will see much better hiring than '11, and probably better overall numbers than '10. I am prepared to eat my words, and I am certainly not predicting a return to boom-time.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu May 13, 2010 5:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, future law student, fortune teller, amateur doctor, part-time pimp

09042014
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:50 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
miamiman wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:A big reason for the massacre for class of 2011, is because Class of 2010 became 2011 through deferrals. 2008 because 2009, 2009 became 2010, 2010 became 2011. So when hiring for 2011, these firms already had incoming 2011 associates. That explains why they were so harsh.

If I were a firm, I'd hire fairly liberally for 2012. But firms may be scared.

Remember while class of 13 OCI's next august, they don't start full time until 2013. So firms will consider what they think their need are in 2013 when hiring.


Desert Fox: electrical engineer, future law student, fortune teller, amateur doctor, part-time pimp


I prefer love financier.

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electricfeel
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby electricfeel » Thu May 13, 2010 6:01 pm

Can somebody please tell me what "ITE" stands for? Sorry for the blatant ignorance.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu May 13, 2010 6:04 pm

in this economy

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby Action Jackson » Fri May 14, 2010 10:01 am

disco_barred wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
disco_barred wrote:There is actually a lot of evidence that there will be an increase in hiring. Firms have requested deferred associates back, firms have published strong profit numbers, deals are picking up, litigation is picking up, regulation is picking up, lobbying is picking up, deferral programs are ending so there's not a double-glut, offer rates were high, firms report being understaved, lateral hiring is picking up, more firms have registered for fall OCI than last year, firms that canceled 2010 summer programs are recruiting for summer 2011.

I'm a 1L at a T14 and have heard from career services that registration for OCI this August is already up 15% over last year and they're expecting even more firms to be registered by the end of June when they start bidding. I'm pessimistic, but hoping this is a good sign.


NY TO 190

Seriously... if you forced me to put my money down, I'd say the worst is over, and '12 will see much better hiring than '11, and probably better overall numbers than '10. I am prepared to eat my words, and I am certainly not predicting a return to boom-time.

The major concern I have is that the people I talk to at firms say there's not enough work to go around. That's the key. Those deferred associates aren't a welcome addition to the offices they're going to. The real question is how firms will be gambling on future business picking up. No one knows. But a large reason it FEELS as bleak as it does for us is that it feels bleak at the big firms. They're not optimistic. It feels like the energy is going bottom up right now, rather than top down. That is, law schools are trying to push graduates into firms, rather than firms wanting to pull graduates in.

These are scary times we live in.

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Re: Law Graduates Face a Tough Job Market - WSJ.com

Postby digitalcntrl » Fri May 14, 2010 10:46 am

Desert Fox wrote:
ATL is a scandal sheet. Unless something fundamentally changes in the legal market, hiring has to pick up eventually. Firms hired about half as many SA's for 2011 as they did for 2009. The market for legal work done hasn't been halved.

Investment banks (who got slammed worse than law firms) are already being to ramp up hiring.

Thought people should remember, outside the T14, even during the boom, there weren't big law jobs for anyone who wanted one. Median at WUSTL wasn't getting big law even in 2007.


Maybe, but increasingly law firms are viewing their associates as expendable (there are plenty of young turks to take your spot), so get ready for lower salaries/fewer bounses. Also Firms have just come out of a recession so everyone is very Conservative hiring wise (esp. since SAs and 1st years don't really contribute that much). Another problems for job seekers is that there is a glut of law students for the class of 2012 and 2013 esp. outside of the T-14.




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