Not listing jobs on your resume

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Anonymous User
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Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 05, 2010 10:19 am

Not sure if this is the right board, but I wanted this ? to be anonymous, so here we go:

I am applying to law schools this fall. I am worried about Character & Fitness already (due to my debt/collection agencies), but I also want to clarify something: is not putting an employer on my resume on law school applications, but later completely disclosing EVERYWHERE I have worked on my Character & Fitness still grounds for poor Character & Fitness? I am worried that showing that I have been fired from 3 jobs since I was 17 would affect my applications.

job 1 - fired when I was 17, in a restaurant...high school job.
job 2 - fired when I was 21 and did not show up for work anymore, in a restaurant...college job.
job 3 - fired when I did not "fit in with the company's expectations" - part-time administrative job, post-college.

Then, I have some lousy part-time jobs I left (on good terms) after only a month or two.

I just want to make sure I do not seem like I am lying/trying to hide anything, but I know that usually people only put jobs on their resumes that are applicable to their purposes (e.g. I am not going to put "Wendy's from 2004-2005" on a resume for an upper-management position in 2010).

Hopefully that made sense. Thanks!

Anonymous User
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Anonymous User » Wed May 05, 2010 10:29 am

The first answer is: Check with your state bar

Beyond that is just my conjecture:

A) Some law schools will ask for employment history (in chronological order)...you can't avoid these things there and it sounds like you'll have a lot of writing/explaining to do.

B) Speaking from a professional standpoint. Its fine to exclude jobs. I've done it. You put on jobs on your resume that are focused on catching the employer's attention (or in this case, LS). Obviously, your last job should be there, but beyond that, no one's interested in your table waiting gig, when the summer before you interned at the state house. Stuff like that is pretty obvious.

C) Bottom line is, you have a shitty employment history and its a deterrent. Disclosure is appropriate and you made need to explain it. But a resume doesn't say: tell me your last three jobs, it says, here's my relevant experience and knowledge

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Bert
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Bert » Wed May 05, 2010 10:36 am

I don't think that omitting past jobs will hurt you in the C&F sense at all (unless you are specifically asked to identify your complete employment history and you do not do so); however, if not listing these jobs creates gaps in your employment history then it may raise other questions. As you mentioned, people don't necessarily list all jobs which they have held on their resume, but if you have only been out of school for a short time and "Job 3" or the "lousy part-time jobs" constitute a significant part of your work history, you may want to list them.

Renzo
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Renzo » Wed May 05, 2010 11:01 am

You don't have any obligation to list jobs on your resume, and you shouldn't list jobs that make you less attractive as an applicant. But you do have to answer questions honestly, so if the question says to list every employer during a time period, it would be lying not to do so. Getting fired from dumb jobs won't effect you very much, but lying will.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Wed May 05, 2010 12:33 pm

You run a serious risk of being denied if you lie to C&F. They explicitly ask about terminations & discipline, as well as employment history. It's also obvious as to why you would be lying, so they'll come down on you quite hard for it. Horrible idea, all the way around. And since they will check your law school application, it's probably not the best idea to omit employment history if that's been requested.

Selective exclusions on your resume in the hiring process are an entirely different matter. The exception is any federal government job that requires a security clearance. That's usually the same deal as the bar and they'll pull your tax records to see if you're telling the truth about your employment history.

fwaam
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby fwaam » Wed May 05, 2010 11:03 pm

Do people normally list reasons for leaving a job on their resume? I've always just listed dates worked. It seems to me that you decide whether or not to list the jobs based on whether or not you think they help your case, and you explain why you left only if specifically asked to do so.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby TCScrutinizer » Wed May 05, 2010 11:07 pm

I think someone has said it already, but for a resume you can pick and choose. If you've been asked for a complete list of all employers in a given time, then omission is far dicier.

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A'nold
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby A'nold » Wed May 05, 2010 11:10 pm

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Last edited by A'nold on Sat May 08, 2010 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Always Credited » Wed May 05, 2010 11:13 pm

If I'm a prostitute, does each client count as a separate job or would they just be duties performed while working the job? No pimps involved, I work for myself...TYIA.

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BigA
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby BigA » Wed May 05, 2010 11:19 pm

A'nold wrote:Uh, I (and I promise you I am not joking you here) have probably had 30-50 jobs since I was 16. I left and no-showed at like 15 of those. I mean, I've had jobs where I worked a day and just never came back. So, um, if you're screwed, I'm majorly screwed.


and did you tell any schools about this?

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A'nold
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby A'nold » Wed May 05, 2010 11:22 pm

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Last edited by A'nold on Sat May 08, 2010 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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flying_squirrel
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby flying_squirrel » Wed May 05, 2010 11:33 pm

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Last edited by flying_squirrel on Sat May 08, 2010 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A'nold
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby A'nold » Wed May 05, 2010 11:39 pm

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Last edited by A'nold on Sat May 08, 2010 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Wed May 05, 2010 11:53 pm

Some bars want 5 years, some bars want 10, some want back to 18, etc. Most also want intern & volunteer work. Law schools also differ but generally want less. Law schools have much less ability & interest in verifying what you are saying is true but a material discrepancy/omission is going to be a major issue if C&F notices it. And they will look at your law school application; read some court decisions on C&F appeals if you don't believe they do do that.

I don't really think most bars would pull W-2's unless the presented history gave them a reason to suspect that something was really wrong. These aren't the most lavishly staffed organizations in the world. It's still stupid as hell to lie to them because in most states, that's a "the board SHALL decline to certify..." circumstance. It's also the only one other than felony convictions in certain states; everything else can be waived through.

So erring on the side of completeness & candor is unquestionably the best approach.

-

The one that's absolutely the most invasive (and certain to catch you) is the aforementioned "who are you, really" investigation that comes with a security clearance position. Silly FBI. They obviously don't disclose exactly what they do, but it takes 6-9 months for a reason and they also ask for personal references that span your entire adult life for a reason. It's also safe to assume that they'll get ahold of and compare all prior lists and resumes you've provided to anyone because of the specific things (false identity, undisclosed source of income, etc.) we know they're looking for.

Anonymous User
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 06, 2010 9:30 am

They don't have to pull your w2s---Social security has a full and complete history. You can pull your own as well--this is the best way to fill out bar applications usually, as well as law school apps that require complete job histories. I can tell you my state had my ss history in my file before my CF interview (standard for everyone in my state). It also had criminal record reports from any county I ever lived in. In my state at least, the members of the state bar are assigned 5-10 students a piece and are required to obtain certain types of records on them and interview them. My interview estimated it takes approximately 2-5 hours per student if there is nothing much to find in the record, longer if there is.

Don't think they won't find things. If you left something off your law school app, amend now.

blue5385
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby blue5385 » Thu May 06, 2010 3:28 pm

My law school app didn't ask for every job I've ever worked. It said "list up to four." I left off irrelevant jobs that I plan on listing on my Bar app. If some information isn't requested or relevant in the context of a LS app, why would someone get in trouble for not putting it on there as long as they were forthcoming with the Bar?

edit: Just spoke with someone on the NY Bar C&F committee, because I was legitimately curious about this issue. He said they won't care that you didn't bother putting a job on your LS app as long as you list it on the Bar app. Other states might be different, and if you were fired or involuntarily terminated from a job, that might also make a difference ... I don't know about that part.

Anonymous User
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 07, 2010 1:46 pm

blue5385 wrote:My law school app didn't ask for every job I've ever worked. It said "list up to four." I left off irrelevant jobs that I plan on listing on my Bar app. If some information isn't requested or relevant in the context of a LS app, why would someone get in trouble for not putting it on there as long as they were forthcoming with the Bar?

edit: Just spoke with someone on the NY Bar C&F committee, because I was legitimately curious about this issue. He said they won't care that you didn't bother putting a job on your LS app as long as you list it on the Bar app. Other states might be different, and if you were fired or involuntarily terminated from a job, that might also make a difference ... I don't know about that part.


The app of the school I will be attending (offered, haven't deposited yet, pending financial aid decision) said "List your last three positions of full-time employment and summer employment."

I put my '06 summer employment and my two jobs since graduating in '08. I omitted my '07 summer job because I (1) didn't think it was relevant to my law school/career future and (2) was/am embarassed that I worked there.

It was a non-profit that gives simple manual labor jobs to mentally handicapped people so that they have something to do, and I was one of the few "normal" people they hired to complete the more complex projects that the organization was contracted for, specifically putting together hundreds of greeting card sample binders. Basically I only took this job because the job market in my home town was horrible that summer and that was all I could find.

Based on the wording from the app and what blue5385 said about the NY Bar's stance on it, should this be something I should tell my law school before I attend? If I should, how do I go about that, just email and say oh sniz I forgot to tell you about this job? Should I give the reason for why it was omitted or what?

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cranberry
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby cranberry » Fri May 07, 2010 6:48 pm

the NY state bar application requests every employment you have had since age 21. the word "every" is underlined.

it says "Include self-employment, clerkships, temporary or part-time employment, military service, employment by members of family or other relatives, employment with or without monetary compensation, law-related work-study employment, and law-related employment for academic credit only."

for all of the law-related positions you have to get an affidavit.

i had no idea about this... i quit two jobs, whoops.

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cranberry
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby cranberry » Fri May 07, 2010 6:53 pm

in college i helped out with lots of friends' student films, and listed their self-run production companies on my resume when i applied to law school... do you think i have to list all of those? i mean they weren't real businesses...hence not real employment, right?

blue5385
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby blue5385 » Fri May 07, 2010 6:55 pm

cranberry wrote:the NY state bar application requests every employment you have had since age 21. the word "every" is underlined.

it says "Include self-employment, clerkships, temporary or part-time employment, military service, employment by members of family or other relatives, employment with or without monetary compensation, law-related work-study employment, and law-related employment for academic credit only."

for all of the law-related positions you have to get an affidavit.

i had no idea about this... i quit two jobs, whoops.


I also quit a job after working there for only a couple months, but I had a good reason. I don't think it will reflect negatively on my character since I didn't get fired and don't make quitting jobs a habit.

cranberry, are the jobs you quit law-related employment? If so, it might make getting affidavits a pain, but I don't think quitting two jobs constitutes a pattern of unprofessional behavior or would give the Bar a reason to ding you.

I was kind of starting to freak out about C&F due to all the warnings and paranoia on TLS, but when I actually spoke to a guy on the NY C&F committee, he sounded so laid-back it calmed me down (and the NY Bar is supposedly very tough with C&F issues). I think as long as people list whatever they need to list and don't have any egregious crimes or violations on their record, they'll be fine.

edit: Also @cranberry - in regard to your employment with your friends' production companies, if you have this info at your disposal and listed it on your resume, why not list it for the Bar? They might notice it on your LS app and ask why you didn't add it to the Bar app.
Last edited by blue5385 on Fri May 07, 2010 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cranberry
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Re: Not listing jobs on your resume

Postby cranberry » Fri May 07, 2010 7:04 pm

no i've never worked in a law related position, aside from temping at a firm one time doing data entry, but i don't think i'd actually list the firm in that instance but the temp agency?

i had one freelance job at a newspaper like five years ago that was awful and i just stopped responding to their emails. the other one i quit was because i disliked the place i was working and got a better job, but i actually quit that one formally and we parted on good terms. i'm going to have like twenty or thirty little jobs listed... do they really call and investigate all these things? or just check them against your background check?

about the films... i just kept a running list of all those projects as i was in school; i don't even know what students were running them or their contact info. one of my friends was a film major and she'd say, can you work on this project with me this weekend? and i'd go with her... :\ should i really disclose all that? stupid me for putting them on my resume.




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