Job prospects after school

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270910
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 3:31 pm

JCougar wrote:Most of the associates from this school that work at these firms, according to the firm website, seem to have Order of the Coif anyway, but I'm sure there's a few outside the top 20% that can still get jobs.


The point is you can't really back-track from crappy published cutoff + firm websites to figure out hiring with any degree of confidence

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Aeroplane
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Aeroplane » Tue May 04, 2010 3:41 pm

observationalist wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If firm recruiting doesn't seriously improve soon, all I can say is good luck finding any LRAP job after law school. All the people who wanted firm jobs but could not get them will be competing against you for the same jobs. Not to mention that when the economy is down, hiring at LRAP eligible employers is down or nonexistent because their funding is down.

gochrisgo wrote:You're right about working my ass off to move up, but why work to death to end up making 35k as an overqualified, underpaid admin? I'd rather work my ass off to make 60k+ eventually.

And yeah, I got UMich to look forward to (and their LRAP and IBR in general).


Valid point... I've been working with a lot of nonprofits and just about all of them has seen a major decrease in funding that either led to salary reductions or job cuts. Most of the smaller nonprofits aren't in the position to hire a graduate straight from law school unless the grad has worked with them throughout school and already proven themselves. The historical route used to be 2 years in biglaw and then you're considered employable by nonprofits, but with that route narrowing you need to be proactive.

Any 1Ls out there who are shifting career goals to pursue an LRAP-qualifying job need to make sure they get as much work experience as they can during school. If your school caps externship credits, I strongly recommend you get a group of students together and pitch the administration on the idea of raising the cap. We're doing it here and I'm sure other administrations are willing to talk. In the end, you getting jobs pairs up nicely with them wanting to see you succeed (and count you as employed for purposes of US News).
FYI: at UMich "LRAP-qualifying" just means "full time job w/JD required* and doesn't pay too much money". There is no "nonprofit," "public service" or any other do-gooding requirement for it. Most of the people qualifying for LRAP will probably be doing gov't/do-gooder work, but that's not a requirement. If all you can find is a $12/hr job at a personal injury firm on craigslist, congrats: you qualify for the UMich LRAP.

*Exceptions: judicial clerks and recipients of UM fellowships not eligible.

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holydonkey
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby holydonkey » Tue May 04, 2010 3:46 pm

Aeroplane wrote:FYI: at UMich "LRAP-qualifying" just means "full time job w/JD required* and doesn't pay too much money". There is no "nonprofit," "public service" or any other do-gooding requirement for it. Most of the people qualifying for LRAP will probably be doing gov't/do-gooder work, but that's not a requirement. If all you can find is a $12/hr job at a personal injury firm on craigslist, congrats: you qualify for the UMich LRAP.

*Exceptions: judicial clerks and recipients of UM fellowships not eligible.
I heart the Michigan LRAP.

It's seriously the only reason I can sleep at night knowing how much debt I will be taking out.

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JCougar
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Tue May 04, 2010 5:47 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:Most of the associates from this school that work at these firms, according to the firm website, seem to have Order of the Coif anyway, but I'm sure there's a few outside the top 20% that can still get jobs.


The point is you can't really back-track from crappy published cutoff + firm websites to figure out hiring with any degree of confidence


The top 25% at Wisconsin c/o 2009 ended up doing alright, though. There was a pretty steep dropoff after that. Wisconsin sent me a 200-line spreadsheet with scores and scores of employment data, including % reporting salary for each job category. They also openly cautioned me that people with big firm jobs report salary at much higher rates, which could be seen on their spreadsheet. Their median starting salary was $120,000, but only 51% or so reported. They had a 76% salary response rate among those with firm jobs, and under a 30% response rate among those with PI/government/business jobs. Which translates into approximately $120,000 being the 25th percentile of their class, instead of median. And $120K is what NLJ250 firms pay in Milwaukee. So it seems that 25% of the class is getting biglaw somewhere, which is what the GPA cutoffs would suggest. It's also what the NALP placement data suggests.

Also, all this information is for c/o 2009, so it's likely to be worse for 2010 and 2011.

Anyway, even if the cutoffs are bunk, it's still rare for a school to make available a list of specific firms that actually came to OCI. Mostly, you see lists of "firms that have recruited our students in the past," which is a bunch of bullshit for any number of reasons.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 5:59 pm

JCougar wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:Most of the associates from this school that work at these firms, according to the firm website, seem to have Order of the Coif anyway, but I'm sure there's a few outside the top 20% that can still get jobs.


The point is you can't really back-track from crappy published cutoff + firm websites to figure out hiring with any degree of confidence


The top 25% at Wisconsin c/o 2009 ended up doing alright, though. There was a pretty steep dropoff after that. Wisconsin sent me a 200-line spreadsheet with scores and scores of employment data, including % reporting salary for each job category. They also openly cautioned me that people with big firm jobs report salary at much higher rates, which could be seen on their spreadsheet. Their median starting salary was $120,000, but only 51% or so reported. They had a 76% salary response rate among those with firm jobs, and under a 30% response rate among those with PI/government/business jobs. Which translates into approximately $120,000 being the 25th percentile of their class, instead of median. And $120K is what NLJ250 firms pay in Milwaukee. So it seems that 25% of the class is getting biglaw somewhere, which is what the GPA cutoffs would suggest. It's also what the NALP placement data suggests.

Also, all this information is for c/o 2009, so it's likely to be worse for 2010 and 2011.

Anyway, even if the cutoffs are bunk, it's still rare for a school to make available a list of specific firms that actually came to OCI. Mostly, you see lists of "firms that have recruited our students in the past," which is a bunch of bullshit for any number of reasons.


All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby DerrickRose » Tue May 04, 2010 6:18 pm

disco_barred wrote:All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...


link?

270910
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 6:20 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
disco_barred wrote:All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...


link?


http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

Know it. Love it.

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JCougar
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Tue May 04, 2010 6:25 pm

disco_barred wrote:All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...


Well, that I didn't know about...I will try checking that out. Still, it would be nice to know what their interview criteria were, even if they were unrealistically lenient. It would at least give you a tool to compare between schools how deep firms want to recruit into a class. Like it would be nice to know what Foley & Lardner's cutoffs are for Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, WUSTL, and, as a comparison, Northwestern. It might not give you an exact idea of what you need for each school, but I think it would give you useful information nonetheless if used as a comparison between schools.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 6:28 pm

JCougar wrote:
disco_barred wrote:All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...


Well, that I didn't know about...I will try checking that out. Still, it would be nice to know what their interview criteria were, even if they were unrealistically lenient. It would at least give you a tool to compare between schools how deep firms want to recruit into a class. Like it would be nice to know what Foley & Lardner's cutoffs are for Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, WUSTL, and, as a comparison, Northwestern. It might not give you an exact idea of what you need for each school, but I think it would give you useful information nonetheless if used as a comparison between schools.


It would be nice to have :-/

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby miamiman » Tue May 04, 2010 6:31 pm

JCougar wrote:
disco_barred wrote:All big firms post publicly on NALP where they do OCI.

Just sayin'...


Well, that I didn't know about...I will try checking that out. Still, it would be nice to know what their interview criteria were, even if they were unrealistically lenient. It would at least give you a tool to compare between schools how deep firms want to recruit into a class. Like it would be nice to know what Foley & Lardner's cutoffs are for Minnesota, Illinois, Wisconsin, WUSTL, and, as a comparison, Northwestern. It might not give you an exact idea of what you need for each school, but I think it would give you useful information nonetheless if used as a comparison between schools.


This would be known as legal employment transparency. Shame on you for thinking such things.

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observationalist
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Wed May 05, 2010 9:49 am

JCougar wrote:
observationalist wrote:The way to really solve for the problem you're raising with Columbia is to publish full OCI lists (for the schools that actually still have OCI), and break it down by number of interviews, callbacks, and offers granted by each employer.


University of Wisconsin already publishes their OCI list with GPA cutoffs, etc.

http://www.law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

I'm not aware of any other school that does this, but I was very impressed when I found this on their website. I can't even get WUSTL to reveal the percentage of people responding w/ salary on their salary survey. That information was "not available" when I e-mailed their career services office. They gave me CO 2009 placement stats that said their median salary was $145,000, yet they only place ~27% into NJL 250 jobs according to NALP. So somehow they want me to believe ~23% of the class is getting market-paying firm jobs that aren't NLJ 250 jobs (or more likely, they are just hoping I'm not paying attention).


This is a great start, but it still doesn't show what the outcomes are. If 20 people in the top 15% of the class and law review all get interviews with Jones Day, but only two get callbacks and only one gets an offer, that's far more outcome-related than the requirements for screening interviews. However, it's possible they supplement this information by providing current students with the 'actual' OCI data (i.e. what firms they should apply to with a certain gpa if they want to stand a chance at getting some options next year). The most difficult thing to accept for a lot of people is that their career services office doesn't have nearly as much foresight these days as they used to when the market was more stable. Even once we get OCI placement info (interviews, callbacks, offers) for last year, we'd still be dealing with a significant time lag.

That said if you end up there I encourage you to contact career services early on if you think it would be helpful for you as a 1L to know what gpas you actually need to get hired in the current market. WUSTL should be on their game with this one... they've got a great dean of career services and I know he would make this information available to you if the administration would let him.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Wed May 05, 2010 10:30 am

Aeroplane wrote:
observationalist wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If firm recruiting doesn't seriously improve soon, all I can say is good luck finding any LRAP job after law school. All the people who wanted firm jobs but could not get them will be competing against you for the same jobs. Not to mention that when the economy is down, hiring at LRAP eligible employers is down or nonexistent because their funding is down.

gochrisgo wrote:You're right about working my ass off to move up, but why work to death to end up making 35k as an overqualified, underpaid admin? I'd rather work my ass off to make 60k+ eventually.

And yeah, I got UMich to look forward to (and their LRAP and IBR in general).


Valid point... I've been working with a lot of nonprofits and just about all of them has seen a major decrease in funding that either led to salary reductions or job cuts. Most of the smaller nonprofits aren't in the position to hire a graduate straight from law school unless the grad has worked with them throughout school and already proven themselves. The historical route used to be 2 years in biglaw and then you're considered employable by nonprofits, but with that route narrowing you need to be proactive.

Any 1Ls out there who are shifting career goals to pursue an LRAP-qualifying job need to make sure they get as much work experience as they can during school. If your school caps externship credits, I strongly recommend you get a group of students together and pitch the administration on the idea of raising the cap. We're doing it here and I'm sure other administrations are willing to talk. In the end, you getting jobs pairs up nicely with them wanting to see you succeed (and count you as employed for purposes of US News).
FYI: at UMich "LRAP-qualifying" just means "full time job w/JD required* and doesn't pay too much money". There is no "nonprofit," "public service" or any other do-gooding requirement for it. Most of the people qualifying for LRAP will probably be doing gov't/do-gooder work, but that's not a requirement. If all you can find is a $12/hr job at a personal injury firm on craigslist, congrats: you qualify for the UMich LRAP.

*Exceptions: judicial clerks and recipients of UM fellowships not eligible.


Sorry, I said LRAP-qualifying but I meant federal loan-forgiveness-qualifying. As things stand right now, IBR + 10-year-forgiveness is making public interest jobs (defined right now as 501(c)(3)s, AmeriCorps and Peace Corps) far more appealing. I was speaking last night with one of our recent alumni who works for a firm, and in his mind the enormous amount of debt people will take to finance their law degrees isn't a concern because IBR makes sure they'll never have to pay it all back.

But IBR, like Mich's LRAP, doesn't dictate what you actually do for work... so either way you can have Michigan paying back your IBR payments if you have six figures of debt and end up making less than that annually. Which does make it a lot more manageable.

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observationalist
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Wed May 05, 2010 11:30 am

JCougar wrote:Actually, I just had an idea for your organization, observationalist. What if you or others were to come up with a salary/placement honesty ranking for every law school? It could be modeled after the US News Rankings, in that there would be a few criteria that would add into a total honesty score.

For example, "percentage of students reporting salary" could be one of those criteria, and it could be standardized so that 50% of students reporting salary would net you close to zero points (as opposed to half the total number). Because, as we all know, one of the easiest ways to fudge placement numbers is to get only the people with top firm jobs to report salaries. Another category could be percentage of total people responding to the salary survey in the first place. Other bonuses/points could be handed out for making certain other information/statistics available, such as firms that did OCI in the most recent year, GPA cutoffs for interviews, etc.

Since admissions offices are already themselves preoccupied about rankings, maybe the best way to get their attention is to rank them. Such a list would be simple and easy for prospective students to understand and follow, and it would be easily disseminated to prospectives through forums such as this.

Perhaps a proposed rankings formula could consist of:

% responding to placement survey (20%, based on z-score)
+
% respondents reporting salary (40%, based on z-score)
+
information availability (40% -- 10 percentage points each for the following: accurately reporting firms that did OCI in the most recent year; reporting GPA cutoffs for OCI; reporting median salaries for each job type from said school; and whatever else you would want to add).
=
Total score -- schools are ranked from top to bottom based on the total score this formula comes up with.


Great idea... it fits in with the goal of putting a market premium on transparency. You can already see the stats on % responding to placement and % reporting salary if you look on the USNews datasheet we provide on the website. The last columns way over to the right are our determination of what percentage of the class is reflected by the salary information. I recently commented over on a thread about Howard to point out that of the 200 ABA-approved law schools, they have one of the lowest reporting rates. We let prospectives draw their own inferences about what a low reporting rate means, but I think the general conclusion that's drawn is that a lower reporting rate translates into worse job prospects than advertised by the school. Once schools get their reporting rates up to 100% (or close to... only Northwestern and Columbia hit even 80% this past year, which is telling), prospectives will have a much better idea of what the actual job prospects are.

And while we aren't ranking schools based on how well they report the OCI stats, we are trying to distinguish the schools that are fully compliant with our information request by designing a certification mark. As it stands now, all we're going after are the actual job outcomes that are achieved by every graduate, every year. Once that's in place we can start parsing out which schools are more transparent about reporting other metrics (like the # of students receiving at least one offer from an OCI firm, which I think would be far more helpful than simply knowing how many firms showed up).

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 12:50 pm

In that light, perhaps a certification would work better, as it would be a little difficult to develop a great rankings formula given all the different factors involved, and weighting each "honesty" factor is bound to be somewhat arbitrary. I'm definitely going to explore your site more.

The deeper and deeper I get in this process, the more cynical I get, and the more surprised I am at how some schools blatantly misinform applicants, while others actually do make some attempts to be honest.

I did read that Illinois c/o 2009 response rate was around 95% this year, though. So maybe they have figured out how to make strides in this area as well.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Wed May 05, 2010 7:53 pm

JCougar wrote:In that light, perhaps a certification would work better, as it would be a little difficult to develop a great rankings formula given all the different factors involved, and weighting each "honesty" factor is bound to be somewhat arbitrary. I'm definitely going to explore your site more.

The deeper and deeper I get in this process, the more cynical I get, and the more surprised I am at how some schools blatantly misinform applicants, while others actually do make some attempts to be honest.

I did read that Illinois c/o 2009 response rate was around 95% this year, though. So maybe they have figured out how to make strides in this area as well.


95% is great... but is that response to the question of whether they had a job? or the % of people reporting their starting salary? A lot of schools report they have X% reporting employment information, but then don't tell you that a smaller (X-1)% also reported their salary information. This leads people to think the median salary stats actually reflect the X% of the class, which is most of the time not true. Even the very best programs still only get 80% of the class to report salaries. Duke reported 100% employed last year but only reported salaries for 77.9% of the class.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 9:04 pm

observationalist wrote:
JCougar wrote:In that light, perhaps a certification would work better, as it would be a little difficult to develop a great rankings formula given all the different factors involved, and weighting each "honesty" factor is bound to be somewhat arbitrary. I'm definitely going to explore your site more.

The deeper and deeper I get in this process, the more cynical I get, and the more surprised I am at how some schools blatantly misinform applicants, while others actually do make some attempts to be honest.

I did read that Illinois c/o 2009 response rate was around 95% this year, though. So maybe they have figured out how to make strides in this area as well.


95% is great... but is that response to the question of whether they had a job? or the % of people reporting their starting salary? A lot of schools report they have X% reporting employment information, but then don't tell you that a smaller (X-1)% also reported their salary information. This leads people to think the median salary stats actually reflect the X% of the class, which is most of the time not true. Even the very best programs still only get 80% of the class to report salaries. Duke reported 100% employed last year but only reported salaries for 77.9% of the class.


viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93618&start=1475

About three posts down at the link. Looks like they sent this out by e-mail to admitted students. It looks like it is more thorough than what they reported to US News (based on the spreadsheet on your site). They have salary data on 95% of the class, and report a total class median salary of ~96,000, which seems very accurate for a school like Illinois.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:13 pm

JCougar wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93618&start=1475

About three posts down at the link. Looks like they sent this out by e-mail to admitted students. It looks like it is more thorough than what they reported to US News (based on the spreadsheet on your site). They have salary data on 95% of the class, and report a total class median salary of ~96,000, which seems very accurate for a school like Illinois.


HAHAHAHAHAHA. The data are a flaming crock of shit.

The most recent NLJ report shows the class of 2009 has 26.7% of their grads in NLJ 250 firms. Whatever else you say about it, the NLJ data is pretty rock solid and dependable. They're an enormous resource.

Source: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

The NLJ 250 is a list of just the biggest firms in the country, nothing else. I believe the smallest firm listed has just under 200 attorneys.

So, we can safely assume that a firm of >= 250 attorneys will be an NLJ 250 firm.

Take Illinois' "data" in the absolute most favorable light:

90% of the class employed at graduation * 66% in private practice * 71% listed in firms of 250 or greater = 42.2% at an NLJ 250 firm = B.S.

A huge, steaming, festering pile of bull fucking shit.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Well...I don't know how to argue with that. Something's amiss. It's still better than WUSTL telling me their c/o 2009 median salary was $145K, I guess. Or Hofstra reporting that their median private practice salary is $160,000. LOL.

Look, I'm not arguing that salary/placement information should be collected by schools. I just wanted to bring up what they've been reporting. 95% reporting seemed better than anything else I've seen from the schools I'm looking at.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:24 pm

JCougar wrote:Well...I don't know how to argue with that. Something's amiss. It's still better than WUSTL telling me their c/o 2009 median salary was $145K, I guess. Or Hofstra reporting that their median private practice salary is $160,000. LOL.

Look, I'm not arguing that salary/placement information should be collected by schools. I just wanted to bring up what they've been reporting. 95% reporting seemed better than anything else I've seen from the schools I'm looking at.


The NLJ charts and yearly updates are rock solid. Everything a school says is a lie.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 9:31 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:Well...I don't know how to argue with that. Something's amiss. It's still better than WUSTL telling me their c/o 2009 median salary was $145K, I guess. Or Hofstra reporting that their median private practice salary is $160,000. LOL.

Look, I'm not arguing that salary/placement information should be collected by schools. I just wanted to bring up what they've been reporting. 95% reporting seemed better than anything else I've seen from the schools I'm looking at.


The NLJ charts and yearly updates are rock solid. Everything a school says is a lie.


That's pretty much what I have concluded. Lately, I've been taking the NLJ 250 placement and adding about 5% for people who place in academia + art III clerkships + the rare prestigious PI/business/botique firm placement, and maybe adding another 5% to compensate for people with better grades but are absolute douches at interviews, and considering that most of the class below that number is fucked.

Translation: bottom 65% of the class at both Illinois and WUSTL is fucked if they paid anything close to sticker. And if you're in between 35th %ile and 20th %ile, you better have written on to law review/won moot court awards/have great WE and be goning into IP/be a great interviewer/be a minority.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:34 pm

JCougar wrote:That's pretty much what I have concluded. Lately, I've been taking the NLJ 250 placement and adding about 5% for people who place in academia + art III clerkships + the rare prestigious PI/business/botique firm placement, and maybe adding another 5% to compensate for people with better grades but are absolute douches at interviews, and considering that most of the class below that number is fucked.

Translation: bottom 65% of the class at both Illinois and WUSTL is fucked if they paid anything close to sticker. And if you're in between 35th %ile and 20th %ile, you better have written on to law review/won moot court awards/have great WE and be goning into IP/be a great interviewer/be a minority.


Perfect analysis. You'll do great at law school.

(Obviously at schools like HYS you add a whole lot more than 5%, and at schools T2 and below you probably don't add any more than 5%)

It's also relevant that 1) the "class of" data is true, but 2 years out of wack since c/o 2009 was hired in 2007 (hit with no-offers, but the actually OCI that happened in 2009 was way, way worse than the c/o 2009 and their 2007 OCI wound up being) and 2) it isn't the top X% who get the jobs. Some people above that line strike out, some below get the gig - but obviously the higher up the class, the more likely you'll land a sweet gig.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:35 pm

JCougar wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:Well...I don't know how to argue with that. Something's amiss. It's still better than WUSTL telling me their c/o 2009 median salary was $145K, I guess. Or Hofstra reporting that their median private practice salary is $160,000. LOL.

Look, I'm not arguing that salary/placement information should be collected by schools. I just wanted to bring up what they've been reporting. 95% reporting seemed better than anything else I've seen from the schools I'm looking at.


The NLJ charts and yearly updates are rock solid. Everything a school says is a lie.


That's pretty much what I have concluded. Lately, I've been taking the NLJ 250 placement and adding about 5% for people who place in academia + art III clerkships + the rare prestigious PI/business/botique firm placement, and maybe adding another 5% to compensate for people with better grades but are absolute douches at interviews, and considering that most of the class below that number is fucked.

Translation: bottom 65% of the class at both Illinois and WUSTL is fucked if they paid anything close to sticker. And if you're in between 35th %ile and 20th %ile, you better have written on to law review/won moot court awards/have great WE and be goning into IP/be a great interviewer/be a minority.


That was during the boom I bet class of 2011 data is more like 10% in NLJ250.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 9:41 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
JCougar wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:Well...I don't know how to argue with that. Something's amiss. It's still better than WUSTL telling me their c/o 2009 median salary was $145K, I guess. Or Hofstra reporting that their median private practice salary is $160,000. LOL.

Look, I'm not arguing that salary/placement information should be collected by schools. I just wanted to bring up what they've been reporting. 95% reporting seemed better than anything else I've seen from the schools I'm looking at.


The NLJ charts and yearly updates are rock solid. Everything a school says is a lie.


That's pretty much what I have concluded. Lately, I've been taking the NLJ 250 placement and adding about 5% for people who place in academia + art III clerkships + the rare prestigious PI/business/botique firm placement, and maybe adding another 5% to compensate for people with better grades but are absolute douches at interviews, and considering that most of the class below that number is fucked.

Translation: bottom 65% of the class at both Illinois and WUSTL is fucked if they paid anything close to sticker. And if you're in between 35th %ile and 20th %ile, you better have written on to law review/won moot court awards/have great WE and be goning into IP/be a great interviewer/be a minority.


That was during the boom I bet class of 2011 data is more like 10% in NLJ250.


And c/o 2012 seems to be worse than that.

I'll have no idea what c/o 2013 looks like until I've paid for a year of law school. That's the scary part. I could just take in-state tuition at Wisconsin ($17k) and withdraw from my waitlists, but their placement is likely to be even worse.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:42 pm

JCougar wrote:And c/o 2012 seems to be worse than that.

I'll have no idea what c/o 2013 looks like until I've paid for a year of law school. That's the scary part. I could just take in-state tuition at Wisconsin ($17k) and withdraw from my waitlists, but their placement is likely to be even worse.


nothing has happened for c/o 2012 yet. Conventional wisdom is they'll do better than 2011, but hardly 'good'.

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JCougar
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Wed May 05, 2010 9:48 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:And c/o 2012 seems to be worse than that.

I'll have no idea what c/o 2013 looks like until I've paid for a year of law school. That's the scary part. I could just take in-state tuition at Wisconsin ($17k) and withdraw from my waitlists, but their placement is likely to be even worse.


nothing has happened for c/o 2012 yet. Conventional wisdom is they'll do better than 2011, but hardly 'good'.


I was basing that on the "expected" hires from the data on the NALP directory that you posted, but on second review, I think I misread that site. "Expected" seems to mean people starting work in 2010 rather than people interviewing in 2010.




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