Job prospects after school

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LateNight
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby LateNight » Mon May 03, 2010 5:33 am

A'nold wrote:Lol at making 35k. Try 15k.


Tell me where I can get one and I will sign up!

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 03, 2010 9:50 am

motiontodismiss wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Now, all of that combined still doesn't mean NY TO 190 LET'S PARTY LIKE IT'S 2006, but it does mean that the carnage of c/o 2011 OCI is unlikely to be repeated. Of course, nobody knows exactly how '10 and '11 did across the board so we don't have a hell of a lot to go on...


If the economy picks up I think NY will go to 175 before the end of the decade. I mean Boies Schiller already pays 174 (fwiw I read this on above the law I think so it may not be accurate)...


Boies Schiller also doesn't follow traditional lock-step, and has such a minuscule equity partner:lawyer ratio that I wouldn't even bother trying.

Anyway, unless you're top half T6, I wouldn't bank on those biglaw dreams.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon May 03, 2010 10:01 am

Comp at most lockstep firms goes to 170 anyways after 4 months so I mean it's almost the same thing....assuming raises are given in january.

Besides, I think short of another economic disaster, we've seen the worst of it. There will be another hiccup as commercial real estate implodes (if it ever does) and as student loans implode, but I think the worst is behind us.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 03, 2010 10:27 am

If firm recruiting doesn't seriously improve soon, all I can say is good luck finding any LRAP job after law school. All the people who wanted firm jobs but could not get them will be competing against you for the same jobs. Not to mention that when the economy is down, hiring at LRAP eligible employers is down or nonexistent because their funding is down.

gochrisgo wrote:You're right about working my ass off to move up, but why work to death to end up making 35k as an overqualified, underpaid admin? I'd rather work my ass off to make 60k+ eventually.

And yeah, I got UMich to look forward to (and their LRAP and IBR in general).

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 03, 2010 10:35 am

OP, is your research technical (i.e. science or engineering)? If so, consider taking the patent bar and pursuing IP law. Put that graduate degree to use.

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observationalist
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Mon May 03, 2010 10:53 am

disco_barred wrote:
rad law wrote:Don't pay sticker outside the top schools (some say T6, others T10, others T12, others T18) and it can still be a decent investment. For comparison, I'm going to Vandy with $72k, which placed 47% of its class into big firm jobs two years ago before the financial apocalypse hit, so I'm confident in my investment.


Fixed that for you. CHECK YOU DATA.


In the interests of correcting a noble attempt at correcting data, we do have stats on how the Class of 2010 did in terms of 2L summer placement (which is ITE/after the financial apocalypse hit). rad law, it's worth noting these statistics (instead of '09, which as disco said is pre-ITE) and then recognizing that the Class of 2011 fared worse. We don't unfortunately have data on Class of 2011 summer placement, but that should be out in the next two months.

I first posted the 2010 data on TLS here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81274

Summer placement (not discounted for no-offers)*
V100 placement: 34%
NLJ250: 49%
Private firms: 74%

As I mentioned in that link, these percentages were actually a little higher once you remove the people who were 2Ls last year but won't graduate this year because of joint degrees. *The %'s don't include no-offers, which could bring down the NLJ250 stat to as low as 40%. Just about everyone who worked for Paul Hastings last year got no-offered at the end of the summer, and a few others (Winston & Strawn) were very selective as well. Fortunately the students with good grades who got no-offered were able to pick up federal clerkships, so overall I expect Class of 2010 data will put around 50% of us employed in NLJ250 firms or Art III clerkships.

We had a record year for clerkship placement, with 12.3% getting Article III clerkships (15% for the overall cycle, but separating out graduates from previous years gets us to 12%). That's slightly more Art III clerkships than UVA for this year, which is widely considered by most UVA students to be one of the best law schools in the country for clerkships. According to their website UVA placed 44 3Ls in Article III clerkships this year, or 11.8% of the class. Actually, that's inaccurate: they placed 44 clerkship positions, but it's likely that at least a few students actually have two clerkships lined up back to back. Before I discounted the double-counting in my class, we actually had 13.3% in Art III clerkships. Perhaps 10-11% of UVA's Class of 2010 has an Art III clerkship lined up for next year. I'm not knocking the school: UVA grads do very well in the clerkship department once they're out of school... 4 alumni SCOTUS clerkships compared to our 1 is awesome. But restricting data to Class of 2010 shows something I've been saying for awhile: in an increasingly competitive job market, smaller schools with wide geographic diversity are doing better.

All of this still depends on getting schools to show where everyone lands up, and then having people be willing to discuss the differences in ways that are meaningful. UVA advocates, for example, could further break down their clerkship placement by circuits and judges to show that they do better than Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt also has very few 9th and 2nd circuit placements, so I'm assuming UVA offers stronger placements in both of those.

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observationalist
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Mon May 03, 2010 10:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:If firm recruiting doesn't seriously improve soon, all I can say is good luck finding any LRAP job after law school. All the people who wanted firm jobs but could not get them will be competing against you for the same jobs. Not to mention that when the economy is down, hiring at LRAP eligible employers is down or nonexistent because their funding is down.

gochrisgo wrote:You're right about working my ass off to move up, but why work to death to end up making 35k as an overqualified, underpaid admin? I'd rather work my ass off to make 60k+ eventually.

And yeah, I got UMich to look forward to (and their LRAP and IBR in general).


Valid point... I've been working with a lot of nonprofits and just about all of them has seen a major decrease in funding that either led to salary reductions or job cuts. Most of the smaller nonprofits aren't in the position to hire a graduate straight from law school unless the grad has worked with them throughout school and already proven themselves. The historical route used to be 2 years in biglaw and then you're considered employable by nonprofits, but with that route narrowing you need to be proactive.

Any 1Ls out there who are shifting career goals to pursue an LRAP-qualifying job need to make sure they get as much work experience as they can during school. If your school caps externship credits, I strongly recommend you get a group of students together and pitch the administration on the idea of raising the cap. We're doing it here and I'm sure other administrations are willing to talk. In the end, you getting jobs pairs up nicely with them wanting to see you succeed (and count you as employed for purposes of US News).

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:53 am

observationalist wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rad law wrote:Don't pay sticker outside the top schools (some say T6, others T10, others T12, others T18) and it can still be a decent investment. For comparison, I'm going to Vandy with $72k, which placed 47% of its class into big firm jobs two years ago before the financial apocalypse hit, so I'm confident in my investment.


Fixed that for you. CHECK YOU DATA.


In the interests of correcting a noble attempt at correcting data, we do have stats on how the Class of 2010 did in terms of 2L summer placement (which is ITE/after the financial apocalypse hit). rad law, it's worth noting these statistics (instead of '09, which as disco said is pre-ITE) and then recognizing that the Class of 2011 fared worse. We don't unfortunately have data on Class of 2011 summer placement, but that should be out in the next two months.

I first posted the 2010 data on TLS here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81274

Summer placement (not discounted for no-offers)*
V100 placement: 34%
NLJ250: 49%
Private firms: 74%

As I mentioned in that link, these percentages were actually a little higher once you remove the people who were 2Ls last year but won't graduate this year because of joint degrees. *The %'s don't include no-offers, which could bring down the NLJ250 stat to as low as 40%. Just about everyone who worked for Paul Hastings last year got no-offered at the end of the summer, and a few others (Winston & Strawn) were very selective as well. Fortunately the students with good grades who got no-offered were able to pick up federal clerkships, so overall I expect Class of 2010 data will put around 50% of us employed in NLJ250 firms or Art III clerkships.

We had a record year for clerkship placement, with 12.3% getting Article III clerkships (15% for the overall cycle, but separating out graduates from previous years gets us to 12%). That's slightly more Art III clerkships than UVA for this year, which is widely considered by most UVA students to be one of the best law schools in the country for clerkships. According to their website UVA placed 44 3Ls in Article III clerkships this year, or 11.8% of the class. Actually, that's inaccurate: they placed 44 clerkship positions, but it's likely that at least a few students actually have two clerkships lined up back to back. Before I discounted the double-counting in my class, we actually had 13.3% in Art III clerkships. Perhaps 10-11% of UVA's Class of 2010 has an Art III clerkship lined up for next year. I'm not knocking the school: UVA grads do very well in the clerkship department once they're out of school... 4 alumni SCOTUS clerkships compared to our 1 is awesome. But restricting data to Class of 2010 shows something I've been saying for awhile: in an increasingly competitive job market, smaller schools with wide geographic diversity are doing better.

All of this still depends on getting schools to show where everyone lands up, and then having people be willing to discuss the differences in ways that are meaningful. UVA advocates, for example, could further break down their clerkship placement by circuits and judges to show that they do better than Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt also has very few 9th and 2nd circuit placements, so I'm assuming UVA offers stronger placements in both of those.


Awesome. I love data, and I'll bite. At the outset: I have no dog (school) in this fight, and I absolutely respect 1) the LST work you are doing personally and 2) vandy's recent stats. All the same, I think your analysis doesn't go quite all the way.

First point: Going on the NLJ 250 data, we see that ~47% were employed upon graduation in '09, and ~49% got 2L offers. As you imply, these data points are quite different. We can only speculate on how many people with 2L summer firm gigs get no offered, go on to PI, or (perhaps most significantly) go on to clerkships first instead. This has always been a relevant point, especially when comparing top schools - the recruitment data suggest that literally 95%+ of the student body at, say, Columbia could land NLJ 250 (with large numbers of V10/25/50/100) if they felt like it, but even then only ~70% do so.

Second point: How many vandy alums clerk? You made a big effort to compare 3L clerk placement, but not alumni placement, which colors thing. As the UVA page from which you probably got your data points out, another 37 UVA students were doing federal clerkships as alumni. Irrelevant for counting the 'firm + clerkship' data at the moment of graduation, but very relevant to directly comparing placement capacity between the two schools as you have done. You talk about double counting at Vandy, but the UVA number is literally those who are clerking immediately after graduation, and is 44 discrete individuals, something like 12% of the 3L class and a total of 23% of a single 'class' worth of UVA people clerking at any given time (with many doing their 2nd or even 3rd (scotus) clerkship, I will grant you). Again, from your post it's a little hard to decipher how your counting, but I get the impression you may have been applying a different 'double counting' standard between the two schools.

Effort at clarity: It sounds like you are implying that ~15% of 'a class worth of students' lined up clerkships, but that only 12% of those were 3Ls. If I am correct (and I may have misread) then the relevant comparison to UVA would be ~23% of 'a class worth of students' lined up clerkships, but that only ~12.2% of those were 3Ls.

Third point: I have no third point. I mean, in general you could gripe about various districts, district v. appeals clerks, etc. but it's clear that a) we're not actually arguing about which is better and b) you're not trying to claim that vandy has usurped UVA in any meaningful way. Mostly I just wanted to respond to the actual way you were parsing the numbers :P
Last edited by 270910 on Mon May 03, 2010 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Anonymous User » Mon May 03, 2010 11:54 am

The thing about intern/externing that students at all levels of schools need to realize is that many non-profits and government agencies will take students as intern/externs because they like the free labor and have no intention of hiring them post-grad. Before accepting an intern/extern position, it's worth investigating whether current employees were former interns/externs and whether the organization will be in a position to hire a new grad once you graduate. Also, if the organization has an ultra-competitive application process for new hires where they get hundreds or thousands of apps from highly qualified candidates for a small number of positions, all bets are off. I'm not saying work experience during law school isn't good, just trying to point out why they don't always lead to post-grad jobs.

As for employment statistics, I would take them with a grain of salt. It's not too hard for any school to count/report stats in such a way that gives the rosiest picture possible. It's in their interest to, and there is no independent third party to audit what they are doing. For example, it's impossible to know at this point how many deferred associates will eventually have their offers rescinded. Also, you are going to see top schools in particular do things in order to make employment stats look as good as they can in light of the sagging economy. Think short term post-grad research assistant positions, short term public interest "fellowships" and low level university admin. assistant type jobs which all purport to require a JD and will be counted as non-profit/public interest employment for statistical purposes.

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observationalist
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby observationalist » Mon May 03, 2010 3:02 pm

disco_barred wrote:
observationalist wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rad law wrote:Don't pay sticker outside the top schools (some say T6, others T10, others T12, others T18) and it can still be a decent investment. For comparison, I'm going to Vandy with $72k, which placed 47% of its class into big firm jobs two years ago before the financial apocalypse hit, so I'm confident in my investment.


Fixed that for you. CHECK YOU DATA.


In the interests of correcting a noble attempt at correcting data, we do have stats on how the Class of 2010 did in terms of 2L summer placement (which is ITE/after the financial apocalypse hit). rad law, it's worth noting these statistics (instead of '09, which as disco said is pre-ITE) and then recognizing that the Class of 2011 fared worse. We don't unfortunately have data on Class of 2011 summer placement, but that should be out in the next two months.

I first posted the 2010 data on TLS here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81274

Summer placement (not discounted for no-offers)*
V100 placement: 34%
NLJ250: 49%
Private firms: 74%

As I mentioned in that link, these percentages were actually a little higher once you remove the people who were 2Ls last year but won't graduate this year because of joint degrees. *The %'s don't include no-offers, which could bring down the NLJ250 stat to as low as 40%. Just about everyone who worked for Paul Hastings last year got no-offered at the end of the summer, and a few others (Winston & Strawn) were very selective as well. Fortunately the students with good grades who got no-offered were able to pick up federal clerkships, so overall I expect Class of 2010 data will put around 50% of us employed in NLJ250 firms or Art III clerkships.

We had a record year for clerkship placement, with 12.3% getting Article III clerkships (15% for the overall cycle, but separating out graduates from previous years gets us to 12%). That's slightly more Art III clerkships than UVA for this year, which is widely considered by most UVA students to be one of the best law schools in the country for clerkships. According to their website UVA placed 44 3Ls in Article III clerkships this year, or 11.8% of the class. Actually, that's inaccurate: they placed 44 clerkship positions, but it's likely that at least a few students actually have two clerkships lined up back to back. Before I discounted the double-counting in my class, we actually had 13.3% in Art III clerkships. Perhaps 10-11% of UVA's Class of 2010 has an Art III clerkship lined up for next year. I'm not knocking the school: UVA grads do very well in the clerkship department once they're out of school... 4 alumni SCOTUS clerkships compared to our 1 is awesome. But restricting data to Class of 2010 shows something I've been saying for awhile: in an increasingly competitive job market, smaller schools with wide geographic diversity are doing better.

All of this still depends on getting schools to show where everyone lands up, and then having people be willing to discuss the differences in ways that are meaningful. UVA advocates, for example, could further break down their clerkship placement by circuits and judges to show that they do better than Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt also has very few 9th and 2nd circuit placements, so I'm assuming UVA offers stronger placements in both of those.


Awesome. I love data, and I'll bite. At the outset: I have no dog (school) in this fight, and I absolutely respect 1) the LST work you are doing personally and 2) vandy's recent stats. All the same, I think your analysis doesn't go quite all the way.

First point: Going on the NLJ 250 data, we see that ~47% were employed upon graduation in '09, and ~49% got 2L offers. As you imply, these data points are quite different. We can only speculate on how many people with 2L summer firm gigs get no offered, go on to PI, or (perhaps most significantly) go on to clerkships first instead. This has always been a relevant point, especially when comparing top schools - the recruitment data suggest that literally 95%+ of the student body at, say, Columbia could land NLJ 250 (with large numbers of V10/25/50/100) if they felt like it, but even then only ~70% do so.

Second point: How many vandy alums clerk? You made a big effort to compare 3L clerk placement, but not alumni placement, which colors thing. As the UVA page from which you probably got your data points out, another 37 UVA students were doing federal clerkships as alumni. Irrelevant for counting the 'firm + clerkship' data at the moment of graduation, but very relevant to directly comparing placement capacity between the two schools as you have done. You talk about double counting at Vandy, but the UVA number is literally those who are clerking immediately after graduation, and is 44 discrete individuals, something like 12% of the 3L class and a total of 23% of a single 'class' worth of UVA people clerking at any given time (with many doing their 2nd or even 3rd (scotus) clerkship, I will grant you). Again, from your post it's a little hard to decipher how your counting, but I get the impression you may have been applying a different 'double counting' standard between the two schools.

Effort at clarity: It sounds like you are implying that ~15% of 'a class worth of students' lined up clerkships, but that only 12% of those were 3Ls. If I am correct (and I may have misread) then the relevant comparison to UVA would be ~23% of 'a class worth of students' lined up clerkships, but that only ~12.2% of those were 3Ls.

Third point: I have no third point. I mean, in general you could gripe about various districts, district v. appeals clerks, etc. but it's clear that a) we're not actually arguing about which is better and b) you're not trying to claim that vandy has usurped UVA in any meaningful way. Mostly I just wanted to respond to the actual way you were parsing the numbers :P


Haha, ok well let me respond to your questions and then I'll let the thread fizzle out or derogate into memes.

1) I agree that we would need to speculate if we're trying to figure out the job prospects people could have had but chose not to pursue. And no-offers/attrition are hard to nail down under the standard we're proposing. I do think that NLJ250 + clerkship placement is a fairly strong indicator of a school's placement ability and useful for prospectives looking at top programs, which is probably why a number of TLSers have collected that info for previous years. Now we just need schools to provide that info for the Class of 2010.

I should clarify the mess of an explanation above: in providing what we currently know about Vanderbilt's Class of 2010, I've estimated that we will be somewhere between 40 and 50% NLJ250+clerks this year... we started out with 49% in NLJ250 firms last summer, got hit with no-offers, and then bounced back with 12% getting Art III clerkships (a number of which were individuals who were previously no-offered, which I know because they are my friends). Obviously there are always a few diamonds in the rough who forego firm/clerkships to pursue their passions in public interest/govt, and we've got at least a couple in my class, but the NLJ250+Art III is still a good metric (and certainly better than NLJ250, especially when you get to anomalies like Yale). To that end, you have to separate out the Art III placements for the Class of 2010 from alumni.

The way to really solve for the problem you're raising with Columbia is to publish full OCI lists (for the schools that actually still have OCI), and break it down by number of interviews, callbacks, and offers granted by each employer. The interesting thing for us over at LST is that people are now starting to send us this information from other schools, which means we can try and make at least some headway into showing the potential earning ability at top programs. I encourage people to keep sending us more information as it becomes available to them. But since we're mostly concerned with the issues that are common to all 200 ABA-approved law schools (the lack of information about post-graduation outcomes), and only the top have any meaningful placement ability in NLJ250/Art III gigs, we're not making that our main focus for now.

2) You can see all the information we put together on this year's clerkship cycle here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113124&p=2790245

As I said, I recognize that UVA alumni do extremely well in federal clerkship placement. I was not double-counting for Vanderbilt... I removed anyone who isn't graduating this year and further removed second placements for people in my class who got two Art III (like a district followed by an appellate, for example). UVA's stats do not clarify how many individuals in the Class of 2010 have clerkships, only that they received a combined 44 this year (plus 37 for alumni). Of those 44 I expect at least a few belong to the same individual. Regarding alumni, it's great to see that UVA grads can move between private practice and clerking a few years out. But if all a prospective wants to know is where the graduating class ends up, then it's not necessary to know how many UVA alumni obtain clerkships after first working somewhere else. It is necessary to break down the clerkship according to location, which would show which schools place the best in different circuits.

When you look at the Class of 2010, 12.3% of Vanderbilt 3Ls will be heading off to Art III clerkships while likely somewhat less than 11.8% of UVA 3Ls will be doing the same. I have no doubts that, per usual, UVA will be sending a larger percentage of the class into NLJ250 firms this year and that this at least partially explains why we have more placements this year. I am only saying that Vandy had a great year for clerkship placements and that our NLJ250 placement hasn't dropped off drastically post-ITE. I'm also providing rad law with the information he needs to justify his decision to come enjoy Nashville for a few years.

And you're right that total clerkship placement this cycle (for both '10 grads and alumni) was around 23% for UVA and just 15% for Vanderbilt. Only 4 Vandy alumni obtained Art III placements, with one heading to SCOTUS to clerk for Roberts.

3) I really wish I was part of the team that went to the softball tournament in C-Ville this year. My fellow cofounder, jenesaislaw, was part of the group that took down last year's reigning champions and he said it was a great time had by all.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby legalease9 » Mon May 03, 2010 3:12 pm

disco_barred wrote:
rad law wrote:Don't pay sticker outside the top schools (some say T6, others T10, others T12, others T18) and it can still be a decent investment. For comparison, I'm going to Vandy with $72k, which placed 47% of its class into big firm jobs two years ago before the financial apocalypse hit, so I'm confident in my investment.


Fixed that for you. CHECK YOU DATA.


The 47% stat is after the financial apocalypse. It was the worst year on record and Vanderbilt was the only school to increase its NLJ 250 placement by percentage of its class.

Before: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

After: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Mon May 03, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Observationalist - OK, sounds like we're on the same page and agree on basically everything (especially transparency!).

legalease9 wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
rad law wrote:Don't pay sticker outside the top schools (some say T6, others T10, others T12, others T18) and it can still be a decent investment. For comparison, I'm going to Vandy with $72k, which placed 47% of its class into big firm jobs two years ago before the financial apocalypse hit, so I'm confident in my investment.


Fixed that for you. CHECK YOU DATA.


The 47% stat is after the financial apocalypse. It was the worst year on record and Vanderbilt was the only school to increase its NLJ 250 placement by percentage of its class.

Before: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61206

After: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843


You don't get it.

Firm hiring happens TWO YEARS in advance of start dates.

The class of 2009 data which was released in 2010 came from hiring that was done in August, September and October of 2007. It's complicated and makes it hard to compare things, but suffice it to say that the NLJ numbers massively lag current trends.

Fall 2004: Class of 2009 joins TLS (did it even exist? Maybe not). All is rosey. Let's go to law school guys! Current NLJ placement data is from class of 2003, who did OCI in 2001.

Fall 2005: Class of 2009 sends applications to law school, waits nervously. Current NLJ placement data is from the class of 2004, who did OCI in 2002.

Fall 2006: Class of 2009 begins law school. What could go wrong! Current NLJ data is the class of 2005, the famous pdf: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

Spring 2007: Class of 2009 receives grades, transitions to 1L summer work

Fall 2007: Fims, projecting NY TO 190 and massive growth, to on campus interviews. They hire metric fuck tons of 2Ls. 2Ls by the truck load. NLJ data is class of 2006, who did OCI in 2004.

Fall 2007: Firm job in hands, vandy 2Ls and others sip champagne and caviar, enjoying their good fortune. The class of 2010 begins law school. Disaster looms.

Summer 2008: Woo hoo! The class of 2009 spends a summer earning 2-3 grand/week at their SWEET SUMMER GIGS. NY TO 190.

Fall 2008: Lehman collapses, bottom falls out of U.S. Economy, law firms fire 80% of attorneys and stock up on ammunition and canned goods. Sometime around this point, the offer rate (which used to be 90%+ at firms, 98%+ at the best firms) begins to decline, and associates are deferred. The class of 2009 takes a hit here. The class of 2011, may God forevever have mercy on their souls, begins law school. Class of 2010 gets sucker punched during OCI. Current NLJ data is for the class of 2007, who did OCI in 2005.

Summer 2009: Class of '09 graduates, having felt the impact through deferals and no offers. The remnants of the class of 2010 go to work at their firms for the summer, shaken by the down turn. OCI is canceled for the class of 2011. Nobody gets firm jobs. Graduates resort to prostitution.

Fall 2009: Class of 2012 starts law school. Gunning at an all time high, everyone understands that there are about 17 legal jobs left in the country. Current NLJ data is laughably out of date, for the class of 2008 who did OCI in 2006.

Winter / Spring 2010: Class of 2009 employment data released, from the OCI they did in 2007.

Right now: we have this debate. Very little data exists from which to speculate about OCI 2008 or OCI 2009. Reports from the ground suggest it was brutal, with the worst being OCI '09 / Class of '11. Class of '10 didn't exactly have it easy though.

Summer 2010: Signs of recovery. The 6 members of the entire 50,000+ class of 2011 who got SA gigs will work at their firms.

Fall 2010: The class of 2012 will beg for jobs, assuming OCI will have rebounded at least a little. 1Ls continue death march into the sea.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby T14_Scholly » Mon May 03, 2010 4:12 pm

disco_barred wrote:
miamiman wrote:Have there been any firm signals, good or bad, as to where legal recruiting is tending for fall?


All signals point to up, but no signals point to dramatically.

More firms are coming to OCI, lateral hiring has picked up, there have been scattered anecdotal reports of over-worked associates and a general feeling that firms cut back too much / have too few young associates, with worry that they will abandon ship as soon as they can given the decrease in trust, plus generally solid revenue and profits per partner numbers considering the down turn. Add to that an influx of big projects with things like the goldman sachs litigation and new federal regulations.

Now, all of that combined still doesn't mean NY TO 190 LET'S PARTY LIKE IT'S 2006, but it does mean that the carnage of c/o 2011 OCI is unlikely to be repeated. Of course, nobody knows exactly how '10 and '11 did across the board so we don't have a hell of a lot to go on...


The Goldman Sachs litigation is going to contribute to an uptick in the industry at large?

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Mon May 03, 2010 4:15 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:The Goldman Sachs litigation is going to contribute to an uptick in the industry at large?


A half dozen or so firms are involved by now I think, and big matters like these last quite a while and may spawn more suits.

It won't prop up the legal industry, but it's a shot in the arm - and indicative of the kinds of things that are happening which will cause more jobs to exist here and there. This recession was so bad that the 'counter cyclical' nature of the legal industry hadn't really kicked in, but it looks like we're about ready to cockroach our way through this one.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby miamiman » Mon May 03, 2010 4:17 pm

Disco Barred's reply is TLS pulitzer material
Last edited by miamiman on Tue May 04, 2010 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bwv812
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby bwv812 » Mon May 03, 2010 11:48 pm

.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby DerrickRose » Tue May 04, 2010 1:47 am

disco_barred wrote:
You don't get it.

Firm hiring happens TWO YEARS in advance of start dates.

The class of 2009 data which was released in 2010 came from hiring that was done in August, September and October of 2007. It's complicated and makes it hard to compare things, but suffice it to say that the NLJ numbers massively lag current trends.

Fall 2004: Class of 2009 joins TLS (did it even exist? Maybe not). All is rosey. Let's go to law school guys! Current NLJ placement data is from class of 2003, who did OCI in 2001.

Fall 2005: Class of 2009 sends applications to law school, waits nervously. Current NLJ placement data is from the class of 2004, who did OCI in 2002.

Fall 2006: Class of 2009 begins law school. What could go wrong! Current NLJ data is the class of 2005, the famous pdf: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

Spring 2007: Class of 2009 receives grades, transitions to 1L summer work

Fall 2007: Fims, projecting NY TO 190 and massive growth, to on campus interviews. They hire metric fuck tons of 2Ls. 2Ls by the truck load. NLJ data is class of 2006, who did OCI in 2004.

Fall 2007: Firm job in hands, vandy 2Ls and others sip champagne and caviar, enjoying their good fortune. The class of 2010 begins law school. Disaster looms.

Summer 2008: Woo hoo! The class of 2009 spends a summer earning 2-3 grand/week at their SWEET SUMMER GIGS. NY TO 190.

Fall 2008: Lehman collapses, bottom falls out of U.S. Economy, law firms fire 80% of attorneys and stock up on ammunition and canned goods. Sometime around this point, the offer rate (which used to be 90%+ at firms, 98%+ at the best firms) begins to decline, and associates are deferred. The class of 2009 takes a hit here. The class of 2011, may God forevever have mercy on their souls, begins law school. Class of 2010 gets sucker punched during OCI. Current NLJ data is for the class of 2007, who did OCI in 2005.

Summer 2009: Class of '09 graduates, having felt the impact through deferals and no offers. The remnants of the class of 2010 go to work at their firms for the summer, shaken by the down turn. OCI is canceled for the class of 2011. Nobody gets firm jobs. Graduates resort to prostitution.

Fall 2009: Class of 2012 starts law school. Gunning at an all time high, everyone understands that there are about 17 legal jobs left in the country. Current NLJ data is laughably out of date, for the class of 2008 who did OCI in 2006.

Winter / Spring 2010: Class of 2009 employment data released, from the OCI they did in 2007.

Right now: we have this debate. Very little data exists from which to speculate about OCI 2008 or OCI 2009. Reports from the ground suggest it was brutal, with the worst being OCI '09 / Class of '11. Class of '10 didn't exactly have it easy though.

Summer 2010: Signs of recovery. The 6 members of the entire 50,000+ class of 2011 who got SA gigs will work at their firms.

Fall 2010: The class of 2012 will beg for jobs, assuming OCI will have rebounded at least a little. 1Ls continue death march into the sea.


Epic. Bravo.

Btw: Reading "NY TO 190" is almost like listening to a Backstreet Boys record. You can't even believe how recently that was a relevant part of our discourse.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Tue May 04, 2010 11:16 am

observationalist wrote:The way to really solve for the problem you're raising with Columbia is to publish full OCI lists (for the schools that actually still have OCI), and break it down by number of interviews, callbacks, and offers granted by each employer.


University of Wisconsin already publishes their OCI list with GPA cutoffs, etc.

http://www.law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

I'm not aware of any other school that does this, but I was very impressed when I found this on their website. I can't even get WUSTL to reveal the percentage of people responding w/ salary on their salary survey. That information was "not available" when I e-mailed their career services office. They gave me CO 2009 placement stats that said their median salary was $145,000, yet they only place ~27% into NJL 250 jobs according to NALP. So somehow they want me to believe ~23% of the class is getting market-paying firm jobs that aren't NLJ 250 jobs (or more likely, they are just hoping I'm not paying attention).

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby Kochel » Tue May 04, 2010 11:35 am

disco_barred wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:The Goldman Sachs litigation is going to contribute to an uptick in the industry at large?


A half dozen or so firms are involved by now I think, and big matters like these last quite a while and may spawn more suits.

It won't prop up the legal industry, but it's a shot in the arm - and indicative of the kinds of things that are happening which will cause more jobs to exist here and there. This recession was so bad that the 'counter cyclical' nature of the legal industry hadn't really kicked in, but it looks like we're about ready to cockroach our way through this one.


The Goldman case by itself will have only a small impact--much depends on whether and how quickly GS resolves the primary SEC case and on whether any criminal charges are brought. However, there's lots of reason to believe that the conduct at issue--the process by which CDOs were created and marketed--could launch a thousand lawsuits against all the big players in the CDO space.

What would really impact law firms, though, is the financial reform legislation now being debated. There are several goldmines for law firms in the Dodd bill--derivatives reform, a new federal regulatory agency, proprietary trading restrictions--and some of them would actually lead to restructuring within the investment banking industry. NYC Biglaw is drooling at the prospects.

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JCougar
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Tue May 04, 2010 11:47 am

Actually, I just had an idea for your organization, observationalist. What if you or others were to come up with a salary/placement honesty ranking for every law school? It could be modeled after the US News Rankings, in that there would be a few criteria that would add into a total honesty score.

For example, "percentage of students reporting salary" could be one of those criteria, and it could be standardized so that 50% of students reporting salary would net you close to zero points (as opposed to half the total number). Because, as we all know, one of the easiest ways to fudge placement numbers is to get only the people with top firm jobs to report salaries. Another category could be percentage of total people responding to the salary survey in the first place. Other bonuses/points could be handed out for making certain other information/statistics available, such as firms that did OCI in the most recent year, GPA cutoffs for interviews, etc.

Since admissions offices are already themselves preoccupied about rankings, maybe the best way to get their attention is to rank them. Such a list would be simple and easy for prospective students to understand and follow, and it would be easily disseminated to prospectives through forums such as this.

Perhaps a proposed rankings formula could consist of:

% responding to placement survey (20%, based on z-score)
+
% respondents reporting salary (40%, based on z-score)
+
information availability (40% -- 10 percentage points each for the following: accurately reporting firms that did OCI in the most recent year; reporting GPA cutoffs for OCI; reporting median salaries for each job type from said school; and whatever else you would want to add).
=
Total score -- schools are ranked from top to bottom based on the total score this formula comes up with.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby motiontodismiss » Tue May 04, 2010 12:25 pm

I think the United/Continental merger would have a bigger impact than the Goldman case. Continental retained 3 different law firms (dunno why). Can you imagine those union negotiations going on and on and on and on and on, ad nauseam? They'll never close. That is, assuming DOJ antitrust even approves in the first place.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby DerrickRose » Tue May 04, 2010 1:00 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:I think the United/Continental merger would have a bigger impact than the Goldman case. Continental retained 3 different law firms (dunno why). Can you imagine those union negotiations going on and on and on and on and on, ad nauseam? They'll never close. That is, assuming DOJ antitrust even approves in the first place.


Chicago market ftw.

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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby 270910 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:38 pm

JCougar wrote:University of Wisconsin already publishes their OCI list with GPA cutoffs, etc.

http://www.law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

I'm not aware of any other school that does this, but I was very impressed when I found this on their website. I can't even get WUSTL to reveal the percentage of people responding w/ salary on their salary survey. That information was "not available" when I e-mailed their career services office. They gave me CO 2009 placement stats that said their median salary was $145,000, yet they only place ~27% into NJL 250 jobs according to NALP. So somehow they want me to believe ~23% of the class is getting market-paying firm jobs that aren't NLJ 250 jobs (or more likely, they are just hoping I'm not paying attention).


lmao @ those cutoffs. Those are boilerplate, useless cutoffs - nothing useful to a 1L. Every firm prefers top third, journal, and moot court. Any firm willing to list a cutoff puts it far below their actual cutoff.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby motiontodismiss » Tue May 04, 2010 1:52 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:I think the United/Continental merger would have a bigger impact than the Goldman case. Continental retained 3 different law firms (dunno why). Can you imagine those union negotiations going on and on and on and on and on, ad nauseam? They'll never close. That is, assuming DOJ antitrust even approves in the first place.


Chicago market ftw.


Totally. United ended up going with Cravath this time tho. But Continental is springing for Jones Day, Vinson, and some other firm I've never heard of. :mrgreen:

But rumor is if the two ever close, the merged airline is moving to Chicago (but run by Continental).

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JCougar
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Re: Job prospects after school

Postby JCougar » Tue May 04, 2010 2:28 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JCougar wrote:University of Wisconsin already publishes their OCI list with GPA cutoffs, etc.

http://www.law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

I'm not aware of any other school that does this, but I was very impressed when I found this on their website. I can't even get WUSTL to reveal the percentage of people responding w/ salary on their salary survey. That information was "not available" when I e-mailed their career services office. They gave me CO 2009 placement stats that said their median salary was $145,000, yet they only place ~27% into NJL 250 jobs according to NALP. So somehow they want me to believe ~23% of the class is getting market-paying firm jobs that aren't NLJ 250 jobs (or more likely, they are just hoping I'm not paying attention).


lmao @ those cutoffs. Those are boilerplate, useless cutoffs - nothing useful to a 1L. Every firm prefers top third, journal, and moot court. Any firm willing to list a cutoff puts it far below their actual cutoff.


Isn't that what the cutoffs seem to indicate? Most of the biglaw firms on there state top 25% or so, plus they prefer moot court and law review. If you have grades in the 25th percentile range, you can still write on to law review and win some moot court awards, and have interesting work experience.

Most of the associates from this school that work at these firms, according to the firm website, seem to have Order of the Coif anyway, but I'm sure there's a few outside the top 20% that can still get jobs.




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