Military vs. Legal Education

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03121202698008
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:35 pm

jchoggan wrote:I'm a captain in the Air Force, going to GULC part time. You can do both. I'm taking advantage of the GI bill as of June of this year, which takes care of 100% of tuition and fees with no added commitment. It's a great program, and you can figure out what you want to do with it afterward.

General Tso - before you make the argument that the military is "dangling money" in front of kids and wasting taxpayer dollars in the process, check your facts... the new GI bill is fully funded by previous veterans who paid into the Montgomery GI bill and never used it. Congress is just trying to get soldiers to use their own college savings fund, essentially. I will admit that the military does everything it can (often shamelessly) to entice kids in and keep them in (and much of this incentive is monetary... i mean, where else can you retire at 38?), but otherwise we would have to go back to the draft, and nobody wants that. (done w/ my hijack... sorry)

Back to OP - the 'physicality' you speak of is almost nonexistant in most of the military (especially JAG). I watched a bunch of officers from all branches walk their PT test the other day... it's kinda sad. Unless you go special ops or infantry, you'll only be required to be slightly more active than a slug.


Unless they walk fast, that would be an automatic fail under the new standard that will be in effect when he comes in. Minimum passing for <30 is 13:45.

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GIBilled
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby GIBilled » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:11 pm

I think you are doing a fine job losing this argument on your own. I can only pray that your "uberclass" will answer when your war bell tolls (and that they will be in the physical shape to do so). Oh wait, September 11th....

Good luck.

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DerrickRose
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby DerrickRose » Sat May 01, 2010 12:30 am

A good friend of mine chose to join the Army infantry rather than go to law school because he felt like he had to see combat to feel like a man or some crazy crap like that. He is a URM with a 3.7 who has PT'ed in the high 160's btw. He ships off to Afghanistan this summer.

If I might editorialize: He's a freaking nutcase.

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TonyDigital
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby TonyDigital » Sat May 01, 2010 2:33 am

General Tso wrote:It's not that...regarding "waste," I don't understand why we have so many troops in the first place. They basically take anyone that walks in the door, and with all the hoopla around the government budget deficits I don't really understand why that is. Do we need 1.5m troops to fight today's struggles with small terror cells? I'm not so sure...

I have wide ranging beliefs on what is wrong with American society's treatment of young people. Now there's lots of reasons not to want to emulate Russia, but my g/f is Russian so I will speak a little about their approach to young people. College there is free or cheap, but it's really competitive to get accepted to a good one. But basically it's a merit system, if you are smart you get the education you want. If you aren't smart enough to earn your way into a prime university seat, the system channels you into another route -- vocational/technical school. This way you can still have a "middle class" (by russian standards anyway) lifestyle and a good job. If you don't perform well enough on the exams to enter a technical school, then you are looking at military service. Now granted, that means you end up with the weakest members of society serving in the military, but for me that's not such a big problem because I agree with the founding fathers approach (and the approach of this country up until 1939) that we don't need a huge standing army. Russia by the way, has about 50% fewer active troops than America. If a crisis erupts, the more educated segments of the society will suit up just like in WW2. And it's not like I am talking about closing down West Point--you would still have the educated leadership you need.

I just think this system is more efficient...it channels people into gainful career paths without racking them with student debt. I really think that our current military recruitment system is one reason why the government is uninterested in addressing the exponentially increasing tuition hikes. They learned that during the Vietnam era (my mom was a student at a major SEC school at the time...her tuition was $200 a semester) a cheap university is an attractive escape from military service. The solution? Classic carrot and stick - dangle the GI Bill tuition benefits (carrot) while letting tuition at the universities explode (stick) --> now you get willing military service without needing to resort to the unpopular draft


I see that you’ve put some thought into this matter…then you won’t mind thinking about it a little longer.

Regarding the excessive number of troops we have: If we have too many troops, why are we stretched so thin? Why would it be necessary to deploy troops for 12 months at a time and multiple times within one term?

Regarding the education/social system in Russia: The “channeling” of people into certain career paths is equivalent to the gov’t telling people what they’ll be. You call it a merit system, I call it not giving everyone a fighting chance. You know where else similar things happen? China and the stories I hear about Vietnam a few decades back. I’ll let you find the common factor between those countries.

How about this for a merit system…everybody is guaranteed education thru grade school. Then support a system where there are a lot of different options from which the young citizen can choose from such as trade schools, inexpensive community/junior colleges (most have 4 year university partners where all credits will transfer), public and private 4 year institutions, etc… and leave it up to the person to take on some self-responsibility and decide what they can afford and then maybe even help them pay tuition and COL via grants and a multitude of scholarships? Sounds like a pretty decent system to me.

Regarding the gov’t conspiracy, or their lack of interest in reducing the tuition rates, to make military service more attractive: I will grant you that the GI Bill is a major selling point of the military branches. I don’t see why you’re opposed to an organization offering a benefit to one of their potential employees…emphasis on the word potential, because the person has a choice to join or not. Since you’re fond of comparing the US to other countries, I used to live in Turkey and know they require every male to serve at least two years in the military as conscripts. I believe China does this too. Russia might not make it a requirement but being “channeled” into service is pretty close I think.

Also, there were 18.4 million students enrolled in colleges and universities in 2008. Do you really believe that if ALL 1.5M soldiers/sailors/airmen weren’t in the military and instead chose to attend a college full time that would be enough of an increase in students that the government would be forced to take action to reduce the cost of attending college?

And here’s one more thing to think about…I’ve traveled to a lot of countries and lived overseas for almost 4 years. There were great parts about each place I’ve been and some things in each place were better, or even a lot better, than what we have in the US. But I challenge you to find one that you’d rather live in…and if you do find one, maybe you should try to jump through whatever hoops you have to jump through to go live there. Life is too short to not be happy with where you are living. And if their immigration laws make it too tough for you to emigrate there, maybe they weren’t as cool as you thought...

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GIBilled
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby GIBilled » Sat May 01, 2010 2:38 am

great post Tony D. I hear the General Tso's Chicken in China is to die for! =)

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amputatedbrain
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby amputatedbrain » Sat May 01, 2010 3:02 am

I'm a 0L, but I am also a combat veteran. I would give this as advice. Most people on this forum would discourage someone from going to law school just because they plan to make a lot of money, or because they have nothing better do. Same for the military. If you don't really want to do it, you can end up being miserable. I loved my time in the military, and look back on it as a great formative experience. But it's not for everyone, and I wouldn't take such a balance sheet approach to the decision. If it's the type of lifestyle and structure that you thrive in, it might very well be the best thing that ever happened to you. If you're not the right type of person, you will regret it for 4 years. Someone mentioned lax physical standards, and this is a problem depending on your service. I was in the Marines, and even the JAGs were expected to be highly physically fit. In some services, like the Air Force, the JAGs aren't expected to be combat ready officers like they are in the Marines ("Every Marine a Rifleman"), so you can get away with being out of shape a bit more. Still, if you become obese, you will be an embarrassment to the military, and likely get kicked out, and it's not a good discharge. Anyway, just my two cents.

Edit: Also, the poster who talked about not needing the troop levels we have currently really doesn't know what he's talking about. It takes a tremendous amount of troop level to be able to have global force projection like the US currently enjoys as a centerpiece of its foreign policy. And for every combat ready troop, there are many logistical positions that have to be filled. For example, for every tank, not only do you need tank crewmen, but mechanics, fuel specialists, truck drivers, supply, logistics, command and control, communications, etc etc So if you want a military that has a global reach and can fight major battles and still take on terrorist cells, the numbers add up quickly.

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General Tso
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby General Tso » Sat May 01, 2010 3:14 am

Regarding the excessive number of troops we have: If we have too many troops, why are we stretched so thin? Why would it be necessary to deploy troops for 12 months at a time and multiple times within one term?


Because we shouldn't be invading other countries and forcing democracy from the barrel of a gun. If you want to be one of those that still supports the military action we took in Iraq, by all means that's your prerogative. Just know that the world opinion is against you.

Regarding the education/social system in Russia: The “channeling” of people into certain career paths is equivalent to the gov’t telling people what they’ll be. You call it a merit system, I call it not giving everyone a fighting chance. You know where else similar things happen? China and the stories I hear about Vietnam a few decades back. I’ll let you find the common factor between those countries.


You are probably thinking of your own circumstances and the opportunities that you have pursued. I imagine you went to a typical university somewhere, probably a public one, majored in something sensible, and probably didn't get out with too much debt. But I read accounts all the time of people who unwisely borrow tons of money to attend private schools...even good ones like USC or Pepperdine...and are crushed by their debt. Even worse are the less gifted of us who fall for the DeVry, Le Cordon Bleu, Wyotech, University of Phoenix, etc. commercials and then borrow upwards of 20-25,000 a year tuition. All of this is financed through Pell Grants, Staffords, etc. This isn't just about "opportunity"...this is about an investment in the economy and the future of the country. How does the country benefit by saddling these people with debt that they will struggle with for much of their young lives? When you think about it like an investment, are we really getting a solid return for financing people's foolish choices? I think at the very least, young people should be entitled to some form of career counseling that advises them which markets are growing and explain to them a smart, financially sound education path. Maybe some people get this from their high school counselors...I know that I did not.

Truth be told, if you really wanted a system that would provide maximum opportunity to all you should have some kind of government takeover so that you can control costs. Most EU countries are this way -- Germany for instance has tuition free universities. Under our current system I am pretty sure that student loans are going to become the next "subprime loan" crisis. I am not alone here...there are thousands of articles just like this all over the internet --> http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Co ... ePops.aspx

How about this for a merit system…everybody is guaranteed education thru grade school. Then support a system where there are a lot of different options from which the young citizen can choose from such as trade schools, inexpensive community/junior colleges (most have 4 year university partners where all credits will transfer), public and private 4 year institutions, etc… and leave it up to the person to take on some self-responsibility and decide what they can afford and then maybe even help them pay tuition and COL via grants and a multitude of scholarships? Sounds like a pretty decent system to me.


You are describing the current system... If our recent housing bubble hasn't taught you anything about the dangers of throwing "free money" at Americans' feet, then I dunno what else to say.

Regarding the gov’t conspiracy, or their lack of interest in reducing the tuition rates, to make military service more attractive: I will grant you that the GI Bill is a major selling point of the military branches. I don’t see why you’re opposed to an organization offering a benefit to one of their potential employees…emphasis on the word potential, because the person has a choice to join or not.


It's fine as long as it is a fringe benefit, but I suspect that the vast majority of college-oriented people signing up for the military are doing so primarily for the tuition benefits. How many people really WANT to volunteer for the army?...you get yelled at, cussed at, shipped overseas on a moment's notice, and may die at any time. My problem is that the totality of the circumstances surrounding American youths is causing them to do things they otherwise would not do. And I think that's unfortunate because all of this really boils down to political and social values, and so far nobody has done anything about it.

Also, there were 18.4 million students enrolled in colleges and universities in 2008. Do you really believe that if ALL 1.5M soldiers/sailors/airmen weren’t in the military and instead chose to attend a college full time that would be enough of an increase in students that the government would be forced to take action to reduce the cost of attending college?


I think you are flipping my statement around...it's not that I think the government is actively conspiring to jack up tuition so that people will be forced to join the military just to afford it. I think it's more like the government is passively watching as schools do this and benefiting from their inaction. But even if the situation were as you put it, in your scenario I would argue that government would have more incentive to let tuition rise HIGHER if there were no willing volunteers. So it wouldn't be that a lack of volunteers would incentivize the government to control tuition somehow.

And here’s one more thing to think about…I’ve traveled to a lot of countries and lived overseas for almost 4 years. There were great parts about each place I’ve been and some things in each place were better, or even a lot better, than what we have in the US. But I challenge you to find one that you’d rather live in…and if you do find one, maybe you should try to jump through whatever hoops you have to jump through to go live there. Life is too short to not be happy with where you are living. And if their immigration laws make it too tough for you to emigrate there, maybe they weren’t as cool as you thought...


I never said I was unhappy living in America...there are many great things about it and I'm lucky to have been born here rather than Africa or something. But that doesn't mean we should accept the status quo where we see real problems.

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General Tso
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby General Tso » Sat May 01, 2010 3:18 am

amputatedbrain wrote:Edit: Also, the poster who talked about not needing the troop levels we have currently really doesn't know what he's talking about. It takes a tremendous amount of troop level to be able to have global force projection like the US currently enjoys as a centerpiece of its foreign policy. And for every combat ready troop, there are many logistical positions that have to be filled. For example, for every tank, not only do you need tank crewmen, but mechanics, fuel specialists, truck drivers, supply, logistics, command and control, communications, etc etc So if you want a military that has a global reach and can fight major battles and still take on terrorist cells, the numbers add up quickly.


It shouldn't BE our foreign policy. Take a look at our budget deficits! We cannot afford our empire any longer. There is no reason why the US should be spending as much as the next 15 countries combined on defense, especially when there are no conventional threats anywhere on the horizon!

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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby amputatedbrain » Sat May 01, 2010 3:41 am

General Tso wrote:
amputatedbrain wrote:Edit: Also, the poster who talked about not needing the troop levels we have currently really doesn't know what he's talking about. It takes a tremendous amount of troop level to be able to have global force projection like the US currently enjoys as a centerpiece of its foreign policy. And for every combat ready troop, there are many logistical positions that have to be filled. For example, for every tank, not only do you need tank crewmen, but mechanics, fuel specialists, truck drivers, supply, logistics, command and control, communications, etc etc So if you want a military that has a global reach and can fight major battles and still take on terrorist cells, the numbers add up quickly.


It shouldn't BE our foreign policy. Take a look at our budget deficits! We cannot afford our empire any longer. There is no reason why the US should be spending as much as the next 15 countries combined on defense, especially when there are no conventional threats anywhere on the horizon!


Your logic here is flawed. There are no conventional threats on the horizon BECAUSE we have such a strong global military that cannot be challenged conventionally. And this same global military drives much of the world economy. Do you think Japan, Germany, and South Korea would be nearly as successful if they had been paying for their defense over the last 50 years? You don't think the USSR (when it existed), North Korea, and China wouldn't have acted differently in those areas if there hadn't been a massive US military presence? You're looking at it the wrong way. The local police department has enough bullets to kill the whole town, but it would never come to that, because the potential maintains law and order. The same principal holds true on a global scale.

As for enlistments, it's hard to understand if you're just not that type of person. Relatively few people join expressly for the college benefits; most of those types simply take out the damn loans. The soldier in it just for the education is more of a stock character than anything else. I know it's hard for people to grasp (I'm not being condescending, it truly is), but some people simply are moved to serve their country. Or at the very least, they may realize they don't want to go straight to school and get a worthless history degree, and the military is a great way to travel and see the world. Finally, I was not adverse to going to war. My views have changed over time, but certainly as a teenager I was enthralled by guts and glory. I'm not saying that's a good thing exactly, but certainly a far cry from impoverished kids desperate to go to college and seeing the military as their only route. On the contrary, it's a very sensible plan for most people. If I had gone straight to college from high school, I would have either failed our or drank my way out. Like I said, and I really don't mean to be insulting, but you truly do not know what you're talking about.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sat May 01, 2010 3:52 am

Thanks for all of the responses. It is especially nice to hear a variety of opinions from people who have served.

I am not looking at JAG. And my desire to serve is influenced by many things including:

-America is the greatest country on Earth
-it's not perfect, but I believe that man has the right to be free, and that whatever he does is between him and his God. I'll be damned if we're going the way of Sharia or the Chinese.

-Leadership/Character development
-I know I'm a good person, I'm always trying to help others, and people definitely look to me as a leader, but I still lack discipline sometimes and think I am ill prepared for high level management. I know the military would have a positive effect on my personality in this regard and give me experience leading others.

-Desire to experience combat
-I'm not afraid to die, believe in reincarnation
-I'm always nervous that "shit is going down" and that I need this type of experience and knowledge

With regards to the last one, this is why I am considering the Marines. I am also interested in learning computer programming skills, so part of me wants to join the Air Force instead where I think I can get that training.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sat May 01, 2010 3:54 am

amputatedbrain wrote:
General Tso wrote:It shouldn't BE our foreign policy. Take a look at our budget deficits! We cannot afford our empire any longer. There is no reason why the US should be spending as much as the next 15 countries combined on defense, especially when there are no conventional threats anywhere on the horizon!


Your logic here is flawed. There are no conventional threats on the horizon BECAUSE we have such a strong global military that cannot be challenged conventionally.


I was going to stay out of foreign policy discussions, but THIS.

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Cole S. Law
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby Cole S. Law » Sat May 01, 2010 9:15 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:Thanks for all of the responses. It is especially nice to hear a variety of opinions from people who have served.

I am not looking at JAG. And my desire to serve is influenced by many things including:

-America is the greatest country on Earth
-it's not perfect, but I believe that man has the right to be free, and that whatever he does is between him and his God. I'll be damned if we're going the way of Sharia or the Chinese.

-Leadership/Character development
-I know I'm a good person, I'm always trying to help others, and people definitely look to me as a leader, but I still lack discipline sometimes and think I am ill prepared for high level management. I know the military would have a positive effect on my personality in this regard and give me experience leading others.

-Desire to experience combat
-I'm not afraid to die, believe in reincarnation
-I'm always nervous that "shit is going down" and that I need this type of experience and knowledge

With regards to the last one, this is why I am considering the Marines. I am also interested in learning computer programming skills, so part of me wants to join the Air Force instead where I think I can get that training.



Don't join the military to learn programming. Almost all of that work is done by civilian contractors. A "programmer" in the military is a guy who installs printers on secure networks.

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GIBilled
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby GIBilled » Sat May 01, 2010 1:33 pm

I was unprepared for the real world (or law school!) upon completing my four year degree. I joined the Army, went thru OCS, and commissioned to a light cavalry squadron. 4 years later, I am certain that I can accomplish anything.

I have had the distinct priveledge of serving with some of the greatest Americans; People who unselfishly put the interests of their peers (and country) before their own. Overseas, I worked hand in hand with foreign security forces and government leaders to bring stability to people who had never seen it. I witnessed young girls attend school for the first time. I was part of a reconciliation between government and a female suicide vest cell, thus denouncing violent extremism.

With these amazing experiences, I have also witnessed the very worst in people. Regardless, I now have a better appreciation of the complex world that we live in and the obstacles we face going forward.

Law school will be there in four years. If you have doubts about attending now, then go see the world and gain experience.

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General Tso
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby General Tso » Sat May 01, 2010 2:24 pm

amputatedbrain wrote:
General Tso wrote:It shouldn't BE our foreign policy. Take a look at our budget deficits! We cannot afford our empire any longer. There is no reason why the US should be spending as much as the next 15 countries combined on defense, especially when there are no conventional threats anywhere on the horizon!


Your logic here is flawed. There are no conventional threats on the horizon BECAUSE we have such a strong global military that cannot be challenged conventionally.


Yeah dude...Canada and Mexico are licking their chops for the moment we let our guard down :lol:

Or maybe you think China will mobilize 1b ppl across the Pacific? :lol: Or maybe you have seen one too many of those 80s movies with Russian paratroopers terrorizing high school kids? :lol:

We can't afford to be the world's policemen...it's time to let Europe, Japan, etc. defend themselves for a change. And let's spend our money instead on making Americans secure in their jobs, their homes, and their health.

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Matthies
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby Matthies » Sat May 01, 2010 2:50 pm

General Tso wrote:it's time to let Europe, Japan, etc. defend themselves for a change. And let's spend our money instead on making Americans secure in their jobs, their homes, and their health.


That's not ened well the last 2 times we tried that

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General Tso
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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby General Tso » Sat May 01, 2010 4:02 pm

Matthies wrote:
General Tso wrote:it's time to let Europe, Japan, etc. defend themselves for a change. And let's spend our money instead on making Americans secure in their jobs, their homes, and their health.


That's not ened well the last 2 times we tried that


You are right, Germany is licking its chops to unleash itself on its EU brethren once again...just waiting for those GI Joes to head home :lol: Or I guess those dastardly Russians will finally conquer the world with their 1980s weaponry.

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Re: Military vs. Legal Education

Postby a1csky » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:06 am

I'd have to agree. If you haven't served, you have no idea what you're talking about. Right now, I'm over in South Korea and I can tell you for a FACT that this country would not exist if we weren't here, possibly Japan as well. The security benefits alone are enough for other countries to support an American presence in their region, and that's not even touching economics. Sure, we could withdraw all of our troops from overseas and divert funds back to the US, but you don't even understand the kind of disaster that would bring, worldwide. I live exactly 21 miles away from the demilitarized zone here, and I can tell you that it is a daily thing for us in Korea to expect an artillery barrage or SCUDs landing right outside of our barracks.

Also, I've been in the military for nearly eight years now, and I've met ONE person who joined for education benefits. All of the others have joined to serve their country. What happened to that one guy? Oh, he just re-enlisted to round out his retirement at 22 years.

Please, if you haven't served and don't understand the inner-workings of the military, don't post your erroneous opinions.




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