The Texas Market/Location Changes

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merichard87
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The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby merichard87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:52 am

Hey guys I have a few questions:

1. I am from Texas and I know that I would like to end up back in Texas for the majority of my legal career however I would not mind going to Chicago or NYC directly out of law school. I know that Texas loves UT but would I put myself at a disadvantage in the Texas market by going to lets say a Columbia, NYU, Chicago that are MORE national schools than Texas?

2. I know there are not many firms based of Texas in comparison to NYC or Chicago but how difficult is it to change offices? For example, could I go into the NYC office of a firm and then later move into the Houston/Dallas office?

Edit: I plan on going into IP if that makes a difference in your response.

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Matthies
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:09 am

merichard87 wrote:Hey guys I have a few questions:

1. I am from Texas and I know that I would like to end up back in Texas for the majority of my legal career however I would not mind going to Chicago or NYC directly out of law school. I know that Texas loves UT but would I put myself at a disadvantage in the Texas market by going to lets say a Columbia, NYU, Chicago that are MORE national schools than Texas?

2. I know there are not many firms based of Texas in comparison to NYC or Chicago but how difficult is it to change offices? For example, could I go into the NYC office of a firm and then later move into the Houston/Dallas office?

Edit: I plan on going into IP if that makes a difference in your response.


Go to school where you want to work or take your first job in the state where you plan to stay.

A law degree is not that portable, it's not easy to just say "hey Chicago was cool for the first four years of my legal career think I'll move to Texas now." Don't work like that. You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam. Additionally some states will test on more 'national rules" for example those states that use the MEE and other states will test on states specific rules instead (all but 1 state use the MBE as one part of their bar exam, the second part can be local or national) and different states test on different subjects as well.

Hence it's not like you can study for one states bar only and take the bar in any state, for most states you will need to study for that states specific bar exam, then another state ect. bar exam is only give twice a year as well. Some states allow lawyers from another state to apply for admission after being a lawyer for 5-7 years, but some do not.

Finally allot of law is about knowing people. Knowing the judges, what works in front of them what does not, know the style of the opposing council, knowing your clients, knowing the clocal court rules/customs. You move half way across the country and you lose at that local knowledge. Your not as valuable to a local firm because your basically a newbie again. Additionally after about year 3/4 of working in a firm you will be expected to start to create and bring in your own book of business, unless your clients are willing to follow you half way across the country, you are going to lose them when you relocate. 4-5 year associate w/o any portable business is not very attractive to any firm.

Can you move around with a law degree, sure, but its not that common. For the most part (unless you work for the feds where you can be lic in ANY state) where you take the bar and practice is where you will likely spend the vast majority of your career.

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merichard87
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby merichard87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:14 am

Yea thats definitely what I was thinking, especially about taking the bar. Certainly don't want to do that more than whats absolutely necessary.

But here's my dilemma: I would really like to get out of Texas for the 3 years of law school simply because I know I want to come back, but I am worried about how many Texas firms will really be venturing out of Texas to recruit. I think UT is a great school and its definitely on my list but I don't want to end up there and always have regrets about not going to a different school.

oneforship
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:17 am

If you go to a top school, you're going to be able to find your way back to Texas provided perform well enough to be employable and have the Texas connections. It sounds like you have the Texas connections.

Some schools in the T14 get more Texas firms at OCI than others, but if you make the effort to network and get back to Texas, going to a top school outside of Texas isn't going to preclude you from doing so.

I agree with the other sentiment that taking a job outside of TX right out of LS is not going to help you getting back to TX later in your career.

Check out http://www.nalpdirectory.com to look at where Texas firms OCI.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:22 am

Matthies wrote:
merichard87 wrote:Hey guys I have a few questions:

1. I am from Texas and I know that I would like to end up back in Texas for the majority of my legal career however I would not mind going to Chicago or NYC directly out of law school. I know that Texas loves UT but would I put myself at a disadvantage in the Texas market by going to lets say a Columbia, NYU, Chicago that are MORE national schools than Texas?

2. I know there are not many firms based of Texas in comparison to NYC or Chicago but how difficult is it to change offices? For example, could I go into the NYC office of a firm and then later move into the Houston/Dallas office?

Edit: I plan on going into IP if that makes a difference in your response.


Go to school where you want to work or take your first job in the state where you plan to stay.

A law degree is not that portable, it's not easy to just say "hey Chicago was cool for the first four years of my legal career think I'll move to Texas now." Don't work like that. You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam. Additionally some states will test on more 'national rules" for example those states that use the MEE and other states will test on states specific rules instead (all but 1 state use the MBE as one part of their bar exam, the second part can be local or national) and different states test on different subjects as well.

Hence it's not like you can study for one states bar only and take the bar in any state, for most states you will need to study for that states specific bar exam, then another state ect. bar exam is only give twice a year as well. Some states allow lawyers from another state to apply for admission after being a lawyer for 5-7 years, but some do not.

Finally allot of law is about knowing people. Knowing the judges, what works in front of them what does not, know the style of the opposing council, knowing your clients, knowing the clocal court rules/customs. You move half way across the country and you lose at that local knowledge. Your not as valuable to a local firm because your basically a newbie again. Additionally after about year 3/4 of working in a firm you will be expected to start to create and bring in your own book of business, unless your clients are willing to follow you half way across the country, you are going to lose them when you relocate. 4-5 year associate w/o any portable business is not very attractive to any firm.

Can you move around with a law degree, sure, but its not that common. For the most part (unless you work for the feds where you can be lic in ANY state) where you take the bar and practice is where you will likely spend the vast majority of your career.

this is fairly stupid. sure it may not be that easy to move around between markets (though most major firms do have offices in most major cities so I don't see why you couldn't move between offices. I know someone who just moved from nyc to dc offices of same firm and another who moved from chicago to la office of a firm). Anyways, the idea that you should always go to law school in the state you want to work in is just plain stupid. that may be true when you're looking at tier 2 options or schools below 10 or 15; however T5 degrees are supremely portable. Nobody in their right mind who wants to work in, say, DC would go to GWU or Maryland over Chicago or Columbia. Nobody in their right mind who wants to work in LA would go to USC over Chicago. Nobody who wants to work in Boston would go to BU over CLS. If you want to work at elite biglaw firms in Texas go to Chicago or Columbia. You have strong ties to Texas (you're from there and went to UG there (?)) so you would have no trouble explaining you interest in working there to firms. I'm sure texas firms just love native sons coming back from T5 law firms to work in-state.

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merichard87
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby merichard87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:24 am

Yes I went to UG here in Texas and definitely have the ties. Thanks guys for your help!

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Matthies
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:25 am

merichard87 wrote:Yea thats definitely what I was thinking, especially about taking the bar. Certainly don't want to do that more than whats absolutely necessary.

But here's my dilemma: I would really like to get out of Texas for the 3 years of law school simply because I know I want to come back, but I am worried about how many Texas firms will really be venturing out of Texas to recruit. I think UT is a great school and its definitely on my list but I don't want to end up there and always have regrets about not going to a different school.


That's a dilemma. Here is my advice, with hindsight to guide me, UG was the time for exploring new cities, sowing your oats and traveling to Eroupe and all that crap. Law school should be about landing you the job you want in the place you want to be and little more. Granted, again, this is in hindsight.

Can you go across the country and land a job back in Texas, sure, just know, especially in this economy, that you will likely need to do allot of the leg work yourself. You just can't count on the school finding you a job you like in a city/state really far away. It happens, and the better school you go to the better your odds, but you need to be OK with plan B that you night strike out and that you might have to move back to Texas jobless and pound the pavement till you find something on your own.

If your OK with that, and you know that going in, and you therefore make the choices to better your chances (like summering both years in TX) then go travel and have fun. If you're not willing to put forth the effort it takes if the school can't get you what you want, then go to UT.

oneforship
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:29 am

Matthies wrote:
merichard87 wrote:Yea thats definitely what I was thinking, especially about taking the bar. Certainly don't want to do that more than whats absolutely necessary.

But here's my dilemma: I would really like to get out of Texas for the 3 years of law school simply because I know I want to come back, but I am worried about how many Texas firms will really be venturing out of Texas to recruit. I think UT is a great school and its definitely on my list but I don't want to end up there and always have regrets about not going to a different school.


That's a dilemma. Here is my advice, with hindsight to guide me, UG was the time for exploring new cities, sowing your oats and traveling to Eroupe and all that crap. Law school should be about landing you the job you want in the place you want to be and little more. Granted, again, this is in hindsight.

Can you go across the country and land a job back in Texas, sure, just know, especially in this economy, that you will likely need to do allot of the leg work yourself. You just can't count on the school finding you a job you like in a city/state really far away. It happens, and the better school you go to the better your odds, but you need to be OK with plan B that you night strike out and that you might have to move back to Texas jobless and pound the pavement till you find something on your own.

If your OK with that, and you know that going in, and you therefore make the choices to better your chances (like summering both years in TX) then go travel and have fun. If you're not willing to put forth the effort it takes if the school can't get you what you want, then go to UT.


Going to a T14 school is not going to disadvantage your placement in Texas if you have the grades to get the job. It also gives you other options if you change your mind.

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merichard87
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby merichard87 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:32 am

I feel what you're saying and definitely agree. Although I am very tempted to just get the hell out of Texas and go anywhere for a while the only schools I would truly choose over UT would be Chicago, Columbia, NYU (maybe), Stanford, Harvard, Yale (you get the picture and of course all of this speculation is based on me actually getting into these schools)

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:34 am

merichard87 wrote:I feel what you're saying and definitely agree. Although I am very tempted to just get the hell out of Texas and go anywhere for a while the only schools I would truly choose over UT would be Chicago, Columbia, NYU (maybe), Stanford, Harvard, Yale (you get the picture and of course all of this speculation is based on me actually getting into these schools)

go to UT unless you get into a T5 (HYSCC) or southern t14 that places well in Texas (Duke).

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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:34 am

You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam.

While it's true that there is not a national bar exam, it's not true that once you are licensed to practice law in one state that you will HAVE to take the bar exam in any other state you want to practice in. If you have been practicing for several years, many states have provisions that allow you to waive in to the state bar. Other states have reciprocity agreements with other states that allow members of their respective bars to waive in to their bar if certain conditions are met. The only states I can think of off the top of my head that have NO reciprocity/waivers of any kind are California, Arizona, Nevada, and Florida (there may be others, those are just the ones I know about).

To OP - I think you would be fine going to a school other than UT (provided it's a "national" law school) and then trying to go back to Texas, but that's just my opinion.

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ggocat
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby ggocat » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:
You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam.

While it's true that there is not a national bar exam, it's not true that once you are licensed to practice law in one state that you will HAVE to take the bar exam in any other state you want to practice in. If you have been practicing for several years, many states have provisions that allow you to waive in to the state bar. Other states have reciprocity agreements with other states that allow members of their respective bars to waive in to their bar if certain conditions are met.

Reading comprehension fail.

Matthies wrote:Some states allow lawyers from another state to apply for admission after being a lawyer for 5-7 years, but some do not.

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Matthies
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam.

While it's true that there is not a national bar exam, it's not true that once you are licensed to practice law in one state that you will HAVE to take the bar exam in any other state you want to practice in. If you have been practicing for several years, many states have provisions that allow you to waive in to the state bar. Other states have reciprocity agreements with other states that allow members of their respective bars to waive in to their bar if certain conditions are met. The only states I can think of off the top of my head that have NO reciprocity/waivers of any kind are California, Arizona, Nevada, and Florida (there may be others, those are just the ones I know about).



Yea I mentioned that, maybe you missed it. However, from some personal experience here, its not as cut and dried as you might think. While most states have some kind of reciprocity it's not standardized. What I've found is that the state basically offers you whatever that other state offers its citizens. So if that state requires seven years of practice for a class "A" admission (admission on waiver) then any lawyer form that state coming to your state will need 7 years. If state B only requires 5 years, then its five years for people from their state in your state. If the state your lisc. in offers no reciprocity with the state your trying to move to then that state, even thought is does for other states, won't for you. Its a total clsuterfuck and you have to research each state individually.

Also when taking multiple bars some states will take your MBE score from another state, and some will not. Colorado does not, so even if you scored a perfect 200 (impossible anyway) on say the MBE in Arizona, you have to take the MBE again in Colorado as well as Colorado's essays section.

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Matthies
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:50 am

ggocat wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
You need to take the bar in every state you want to practice in. There is no national bar exam.

While it's true that there is not a national bar exam, it's not true that once you are licensed to practice law in one state that you will HAVE to take the bar exam in any other state you want to practice in. If you have been practicing for several years, many states have provisions that allow you to waive in to the state bar. Other states have reciprocity agreements with other states that allow members of their respective bars to waive in to their bar if certain conditions are met.

Reading comprehension fail.

Matthies wrote:Some states allow lawyers from another state to apply for admission after being a lawyer for 5-7 years, but some do not.



haha, thnaks man :)

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ggocat
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby ggocat » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:51 am

Mattheis's advice is credited as usual, particularly taking your first job where you want to practice.

Although it certainly helps to go to law school in the state that you will practice in, it's not necessary, IMO.

Even if you get in to CCN, though, the cost difference will likely be significant compared to UT (and I'd imagine someone with credentials to get in at CCN could get a scholarship from UT). UT with much less debt could be a much better option than CCN full cost if you know you want to practice in Texas. So I think your CCN v. UT debate is premature. Just apply to all the schools and see where you get in and what each costs.

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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Stephanie13 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:04 pm

I know this isn't exactly the OP's options but can anyone speak to the ability to go back to Texas from WUSTL. I know WUSTL doesn't place a ton into Texas but perhaps that is self-selection?

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Matthies
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Matthies » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:25 pm

Stephanie13 wrote:I know this isn't exactly the OP's options but can anyone speak to the ability to go back to Texas from WUSTL. I know WUSTL doesn't place a ton into Texas but perhaps that is self-selection?


You can go back to any state from any school. The deciding factor is will the school do it for you or will you need to do it on your own. For most folks going to law school the default will be the latter. Knowing that and then making a plan to deal with it needs to be a top priority if that is your primary target market.

oneforship
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby oneforship » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:28 pm

Matthies wrote:
Stephanie13 wrote:I know this isn't exactly the OP's options but can anyone speak to the ability to go back to Texas from WUSTL. I know WUSTL doesn't place a ton into Texas but perhaps that is self-selection?


You can go back to any state from any school. The deciding factor is will the school do it for you or will you need to do it on your own. For most folks going to law school the default will be the latter. Knowing that and then making a plan to deal with it needs to be a top priority if that is your primary target market.


and grades, but that should be obvious

Stephanie13
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Re: The Texas Market/Location Changes

Postby Stephanie13 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:13 pm

oneforship wrote:
Matthies wrote:
Stephanie13 wrote:I know this isn't exactly the OP's options but can anyone speak to the ability to go back to Texas from WUSTL. I know WUSTL doesn't place a ton into Texas but perhaps that is self-selection?


You can go back to any state from any school. The deciding factor is will the school do it for you or will you need to do it on your own. For most folks going to law school the default will be the latter. Knowing that and then making a plan to deal with it needs to be a top priority if that is your primary target market.


and grades, but that should be obvious

Right thanks. That's what I was thinking but it's easy for me to start getting apprehensive about my decision when I think about it. That plus, I can't assume that'll be at the top of my class. I'm sure that it'll probably help that I have connections around here as well.




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