"Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

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jack duluoz
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby jack duluoz » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:10 pm

RonSantoRules wrote:
My desire to transfer into an elite school was never really about job placement and a lot more about personal achievement and a feeling of accomplishment.


You're a good poster on here, and no offense, but if you have family to take care of, you'd better have a better reason to transfer than this.

Also, XXSpyKEx's post is credited.

Lastly, the 0L who posted and said you should have loyalty is retarded. You are nothing but a data point for your school in the USNWR. Loyalty to your old school should be the last thing you consider when transferring.


LOL. Chill out, man. I said "some loyalty." I don't think it's the deciding factor on the issue, but merely a consideration.

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A'nold
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby A'nold » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
A'nold wrote:
RonSantoRules wrote:
My desire to transfer into an elite school was never really about job placement and a lot more about personal achievement and a feeling of accomplishment.


You're a good poster on here, and no offense, but if you have family to take care of, you'd better have a better reason to transfer than this.

Also, XXSpyKEx's post is credited.

Lastly, the 0L who posted and said you should have loyalty is retarded. You are nothing but a data point for your school in the USNWR. Loyalty to your old school should be the last thing you consider when transferring.


Thanks for the post, I appreciate it. Also thanks to 0L dude. However, about the loyalty thing, my LSAT is many points above their 75%, so I really helped them out that way. :)

So.....my wife always tells me that I will be a better husband and father if I am proud of my accomplishments, but I also agree w/ you that this should definitely not be the only reason I should transfer. I do want what's best for them, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate all your guys' advice.


A'nold, you have always had your head on right, lol, and your family is lucky to have you.

To RonSantoRules: I am a 1L who feels incredible loyalty to my own school. There is nothing retarded about that. It is just another way of looking at personal happiness. When assessing goals, career placement has to come first, obviously, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to give back, provided it won't compromise the student's career goals. People struggle with this a great deal, and there is no simple answer, unless you simply don't like your current school at all. That is not the case for most of us.


See, that's the thing. I like a lot of my professors and some of the people here, but the administration and the way they are doing things coupled with a lot of different things make me resentful and not very happy with the school. It would be really nice to have pride in your school and I really want that but it is not happening here. It's hard b/c it could be a great school, but those in charge seem to have the wrong idea as to the direction and emphasis the school needs to focus on. I could be proud of a t4 school and not proud of a t14, but my school encourages TTT'ness (and most know I hate that phrase) and tries to fool its students and puts no effort into the things that matter and try to create false hype. It would be great if the administration would admit its shortcomings and just try to build up its reputation instead of putting all of its money, effort into these ponzi schemes.

Anonymous User
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:17 pm

I wanted to jump in here to share some of my experience w/r/t this topic. I did BigLaw for ~10 years in a major city. Everyday, I was surrounded by people from Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Berkeley, etc. Lots of former federal appellate clerks, even some former SCOTUS clerks. These people were all brilliant and hard workers, but the truth is that the name of the law school on their resume is what opened doors for them - especially clerkships. Law at the upper echelons is a prestige game, and a self-perpetuating one at that. So while I think that where you go to law school certainly matters a great deal, it's far from the end-all, be-all. More on that in a minute.

As for me - I went to a T30 law school. I did not have a clerkship, and I did not graduate in the top 10% of my class. No one ever treated me as a lesser life form because I went to an "inferior" law school, including the Harvard Law School graduate to whom I directly reported for most of my career. This is because it was obvious that regardless of the law school I attended, I was just as capable and intelligent as my peers who went to "better" schools. So how did I end up playing ball with the big kids? I believe it was a combination of two things: 1) knowing my strengths and distinguishing myself in those areas and 2) networking. I CANNOT emphasize enough the importance of networking, not just for people outside of the top 3 or top 5 law schools, but for everyone. The bottom line is that lawyers and judges are people too, and I think you might be surprised how often hiring decisions are made on intangibles. It probably happens less at the entry-level of your career, but once you get past your first job, where you went to school DOES matter a lot less than your personal and professional reputation, and how you have distinguished yourself in your career so far.

If you are a top student at a lower ranked school - even a very low tier school - you can do very well for yourself, particularly in your home market. Every year, lots of top students at regional schools get prestigious clerkships (including federal clerkships) because the judges prefer to hire someone local, they know the Dean and the Dean recommended a particular student, etc. Someone I graduated from law school with went to a reception our 1L year, met a federal appellate judge who sits in her hometown, and hit it off with him. She externed with him that 1L summer, and he offered her a clerkship post-graduation. She was not a top student, but the judge can hire whomever he wants and he chose to hire her. From my experience, this type of thing is very common with clerkships, especially if you went to Yale/Harvard/Stanford, where the differences between the quality of the students is usually negligible to begin with.

So I guess the substance of my advice is this - if I could have gone to Yale, or Harvard, or Stanford, I would have. And I think you should too, simply because the OPPORTUNITIES that will flow from attending one of those schools is greater than at other schools, no matter what type of law you want to practice. But if you don't go to one of those schools, that does not mean that you are doomed to dwell in some lower-prestige (or lower income) career forever. As I tried to convey above, different opportunities will present themselves at different schools, and if you are ambitious and can network with the right people - both before and after graduation - you can distinguish yourself. Down the line, success in law is not entirely (or in my opinion, even substantially) about the school you attended, and the grades you received - it's about your individual skills, both personally and professionally. Even if you get off to a "slow" start (i.e., you don't land your dream job right out of law school), you can continue to succeed by networking. Get someone powerful in your corner who really likes you, and you're set. After your first job, most opportunities come through word-of-mouth, anyway.

I hope that is somewhat helpful. Good luck to everyone going forward.

BetterCallSaul
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby BetterCallSaul » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:38 pm

Anonymous User above just made a really great post...I feel like 50% of my posts on here are about networking, but relationships matter that much.

When it comes down to it, I feel like after the first job, the prestige of your school matters the most if you don't really impress once you start working. It will be a gold star on your resume even if the rest of your experience is sort of middling and no one has anything particularly glowing to say about you. It's a nice thing to be able to fall back on, but I think that most people who are able to transfer way up are going to be very successful regardless of the school on their resume.
So really, it is about that first job. If your dream is high stakes M&A, you need to transfer so you can have a shot at that first job in a giant firm. If you want to do bet the company litigation, you could very well get to that goal from a clerkship to a reputable firm and on up...

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BradyToMoss
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby BradyToMoss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:05 pm

The "t17" has to be the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site.

elmagic
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby elmagic » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:17 pm

I don't have an opinion on the matter but I thought this was an interesting topic so I asked a family member who is a veteran in the legal field.

This is the response he gave:
"...[U]sually if you are in a position to make a positive move in your career, for example a lateral into the Justice Department, or In-house at a corporation, where you went to law school matters only as much as where it got you to begin with. So basically it comes down to this: If you went to Harvard (I won't let you live it down!) and got your first job at a big firm, or clerked for a Court of Appeals Judge, you got that job because of two main reasons, 1.Grades 2.School. So the likelihood of making a positive move in your career is greater coming from a good school than it would be coming from a lesser school.

When I was working at[firm name] we had a young guy from Florida who went to University of Florida. He had the grades and a good clerkship in Florida, so that got him in the door not his school. Same class we had a guy come in from UPenn with similar credentials except he clerked at the federal circuit. Fast forward four years later, and these guys both jump ship, while the majority of their class is still at the firm waiting their turn. Why did they both go? Well first because they worked for us, but they also made a name for themselves there, and the partners were willing to vouch for them. The thing is the Florida guy went In-house at a medium-sized corporation based in Florida, while the UPenn kid is now working at the US Attorneys Office.

Moral of the story is when making a positive move in your career the school you went to isn't as much of a factor as it was coming into the business, however the difference between the US Attorney's Office and In-house at a medium-sized corporation is pretty obvious in terms of career advancement.
..."

articulably suspect
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby articulably suspect » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:18 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.


Kinda like your chosen poster moniker and tar? Pot meet kettle...

09042014
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:23 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:The "t17" has to be the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site.


No it's not. It represents a very real phenomenon in legal hiring. Vandy, UCLA, and UTexas place significantly better than WUSTL, Minn, Illinois. USC is kinda in a middle ground.

Saying T20 makes no sense because Emory and WUSTL are no better than Illinois or UNC. But Vandy and Texas are better.

sdv
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby sdv » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:23 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:The "t17" has to be the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site.


T14 is an historic line. T17 is a practical line. The T14 places nationally, Vandy, UCLA, and UT also place nationally. Their students tend to self select a bit more, but not more than, say, Gtown to DC. The schools below these 3 (18 on down) are outstanding regional schools, whose national reputation is much more limited.

So, t17 = national law schools.

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A'nold
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby A'nold » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:00 pm

Just wanted to say thanks to the great posts above and the anecdotes from different career experiences.

Also, once again, I did not say t17 because I'm shooting for Vandy, lol, I said it because Vandy is the lowest school that I think I would transfer to so I am shooting at t17 and up.

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RVP11
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby RVP11 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:10 pm

elmagic wrote:however the difference between the US Attorney's Office and In-house at a medium-sized corporation is pretty obvious in terms of career advancement.
..."


Huh? What's the obvious difference?

In-house at a medium-sized corporation can easily mean $300k+/year and 40-50 hour weeks. And it's not exactly black mark on a legal resume, either.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby T14_Scholly » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:24 pm

articulably suspect wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.


Kinda like your chosen poster moniker and tar? Pot meet kettle...


Indeed my moniker is douchey, but it's intentionally so, to poke fun at TLS.

EDIT: And somehow I doubt that anyone outside of TLS could tell you the supposed significance of the T17.

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vanwinkle
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:01 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:EDIT: And somehow I doubt that anyone outside of TLS could tell you the supposed significance of the T17.

Somehow I still doubt you understand the significance of "T17" in OP's post.

articulably suspect
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby articulably suspect » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:26 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
articulably suspect wrote:
T14_Scholly wrote:Anyone who is douchey enough to differentiate between the T3, T6, T12, T14, T17, and T19 is just trying to milk as much prestige out of his/her particular situation as possible.


Kinda like your chosen poster moniker and tar? Pot meet kettle...


Indeed my moniker is douchey, but it's intentionally so, to poke fun at TLS.

EDIT: And somehow I doubt that anyone outside of TLS could tell you the supposed significance of the T17.


So you're being facetious, I don't think it's all that blatant or humorous, but to each his own. The purpose of referencing the T17, I believe, is not play up a certain school’s or group of schools' ‘prestige’, rather it is used to highlight the real world differences between schools.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby BradyToMoss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:23 pm

If you're going to bother making ridiculous distinctions, at least draw one with some logic. Spots 15-18 have remained the same 4 schools, often swapping positions with each other. It's been the same 4 schools, all scoring pretty equally on US News and having similar employment statistics. None of them can break the t14, and other schools seem unable to break the "t18". But even then, using the term "t18" would be the one of the douchiest things I've seen.

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vanwinkle
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:31 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:[strike]If you're going to bother making ridiculous distinctions, at least draw one with some logic. Spots 15-18 have remained the same 4 schools, often swapping positions with each other. It's been the same 4 schools, all scoring pretty equally on US News and having similar employment statistics. None of them can break the t14, and other schools seem unable to break the "t18". But even then, using the term "t18" would be the one of the douchiest things I've seen.[/strike]

FTFY.

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A'nold
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby A'nold » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:39 pm

Sigh. I wish I had never even mentioned anything with the number 17 in it. Thanks Vanwinkle for getting the point, at least someone does. :)

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romothesavior
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:52 pm

T14 Scholly and Brady (Patriots blow, btw), take a chill pill about the T17 thing...

As someone attending a T20 in the fall, I have no issue with referring to the T17 for practical reasons. When I turned down Vandy, I knew I was turning down an objectively better school than WUSTL. But for my own subjective reasons, I do believe WUSTL is the better choice for me (because I want to be in the Midwest, and St. Louis in particular). For most people, Vandy>WUSTL and for good reason. Saying "T17" may be a little bizarre and maybe even a bit overboard, but Vandy/Texas/USC/UCLA are objectively better than Emory/WUSTL/UIUC/Minny. The difference isn't enormous, but it is significant enough that one can separate them for discussion purposes. Just my $.02.

And PS. A'nold, I recognize you were't trying to imply this T17/T20 dichotomy, so this post wasn't directed at you.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby T14_Scholly » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:26 am

A'nold wrote:Sigh. I wish I had never even mentioned anything with the number 17 in it. Thanks Vanwinkle for getting the point, at least someone does. :)


We understand that you're not already attending a school in the T17. It can still be prestige-milking if you're implying that you have a clear-cut option to attend one of those schools, even if you don't know which one yet.

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bwv812
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby bwv812 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:37 pm

.

09042014
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:42 pm

bwv812 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Saying "T17" may be a little bizarre and maybe even a bit overboard, but Vandy/Texas/USC/UCLA are objectively better than Emory/WUSTL/UIUC/Minny. The difference isn't enormous, but it is significant enough that one can separate them for discussion purposes.


T14 + 4 = T18, no? So where does your point about T17 being valid come in?


T17 ft USC

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vanwinkle
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:05 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
A'nold wrote:Sigh. I wish I had never even mentioned anything with the number 17 in it. Thanks Vanwinkle for getting the point, at least someone does. :)

We understand that you're not already attending a school in the T17. It can still be prestige-milking if you're implying that you have a clear-cut option to attend one of those schools, even if you don't know which one yet.

WTF? Referring to the group of schools you're applying to is "prestige-milking"? How would you prefer people state they're applying to the top 17 schools in a way that doesn't "milk the prestige" of doing so? The whole point of transferring in a way is trying to "milk the prestige" of attending a higher-ranked school, but then you're criticizing the very idea of transferring up as a concept, which isn't that bright and ignores compelling reasons to do so.

I'd hope that most people on here can understand that someone is saying "I'm applying to the T17" to mean those are the schools they're applying to, nothing more, nothing less. It lets them look at the rankings, see what schools are 1-17, and go, "Oh, he's applying to those schools." For the rest, who try to read something else into it, they appear to just be pretty sad people.


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XxSpyKEx
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby XxSpyKEx » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:07 pm

This is by far one the most retarded arguments I've seen in a while. I think everyone just got a little bit dumber as a result of reading it..

articulably suspect
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Re: "Where you got your degree doesn't matter after 1st job..."

Postby articulably suspect » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 pm



No mention of T17 there.




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