T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

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miamiman
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby miamiman » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:21 am

0L. Did speak to career services deans at two T14s regarding the upcoming OCI. Both suggested that there would be more firms but fewer offices in attendance; in the aggregate, they projected a similar total number of "employers" in attendance.

Neither provided firm opinions as to whether recruiting would see an uptick or not.

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chadwick218
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:54 am

miamiman wrote:0L. Did speak to career services deans at two T14s regarding the upcoming OCI. Both suggested that there would be more firms but fewer offices in attendance; in the aggregate, they projected a similar total number of "employers" in attendance.

Neither provided firm opinions as to whether recruiting would see an uptick or not.


As posted elsewhere, with NALP firms in Chicago, there were ~800 2L SA Jobs for 2008, ~600 for 2009, and 250 for 2010. Even a 20% uptick puts us at half the leve of hiring experienced in the summer of 2009.

In my opinion, the top 1/3 and latin honors is the new "median" at many T14s.

toaster2
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby toaster2 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:03 pm

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Last edited by toaster2 on Tue May 25, 2010 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

miamiman
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby miamiman » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:07 pm

toaster2 wrote:
miamiman wrote:0L. Did speak to career services deans at two T14s regarding the upcoming OCI. Both suggested that there would be more firms but fewer offices in attendance; in the aggregate, they projected a similar total number of "employers" in attendance.

Neither provided firm opinions as to whether recruiting would see an uptick or not.
this makes no sense. think about it.


Thanks for your contribution.

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soullesswonder
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby soullesswonder » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:07 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
miamiman wrote:0L. Did speak to career services deans at two T14s regarding the upcoming OCI. Both suggested that there would be more firms but fewer offices in attendance; in the aggregate, they projected a similar total number of "employers" in attendance.

Neither provided firm opinions as to whether recruiting would see an uptick or not.


As posted elsewhere, with NALP firms in Chicago, there were ~800 2L SA Jobs for 2008, ~600 for 2009, and 250 for 2010. Even a 20% uptick puts us at half the leve of hiring experienced in the summer of 2009.

In my opinion, the top 1/3 and latin honors is the new "median" at many T14s.


Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but weren't firms being very conservative with their estimates of SAs this summer, to the point where some firms went back and "topped" off their classes during the spring? Does anyone know when NALP firms have to give an estimate for the next summer's SA class?

wesleybs
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby wesleybs » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:15 pm

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFallRec09.pdf

Hopefully this will emphasize just how low the hiring for this year was. Although there will hopefully (and I believe there will be some) uptick in hiring next year, there are a few things I would not expect. 1) There will not be any significant 3L hiring in the fall. 2) The class of 2012 is still going to get hit hard at OCIs (nowhere near pre-2008 hiring). 3) Law school applications will continue to go up regardless of hiring prospects upon graduation.

270910
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby 270910 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:01 pm

wesleybs wrote:http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PerspectivesonFallRec09.pdf

Hopefully this will emphasize just how low the hiring for this year was. Although there will hopefully (and I believe there will be some) uptick in hiring next year, there are a few things I would not expect. 1) There will not be any significant 3L hiring in the fall. 2) The class of 2012 is still going to get hit hard at OCIs (nowhere near pre-2008 hiring). 3) Law school applications will continue to go up regardless of hiring prospects upon graduation.


wow that pdf is sad

miamiman
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby miamiman » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:21 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

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ConMan345
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby ConMan345 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:28 pm

The heads of HLS and SLS career services said the following:

95% of HLS 2Ls have summer gigs, the average starting salary for 3Ls at private firms is going to be around 145K (down from a typical 155K)

2 SLS 2Ls still have nothing for the summer. Anecdotally, 5-10% who really wanted a firm job at OCI struck out.

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Redelicious
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby Redelicious » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:32 pm

Lear to use the Head, if you know what I mean.

lawschoollll
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby lawschoollll » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:40 pm

ConMan345 wrote:The heads of HLS and SLS career services said the following:

95% of HLS 2Ls have summer gigs, the average starting salary for 3Ls at private firms is going to be around 145K (down from a typical 155K)

2 SLS 2Ls still have nothing for the summer. Anecdotally, 5-10% who really wanted a firm job at OCI struck out.

Did they give you the sense that this was better or worse than last year?

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ConMan345
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby ConMan345 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:44 pm

lawschoollll wrote:
ConMan345 wrote:The heads of HLS and SLS career services said the following:

95% of HLS 2Ls have summer gigs, the average starting salary for 3Ls at private firms is going to be around 145K (down from a typical 155K)

2 SLS 2Ls still have nothing for the summer. Anecdotally, 5-10% who really wanted a firm job at OCI struck out.

Did they give you the sense that this was better or worse than last year?


Worse, and the data in that pdf above vouches for that. The personal attention given by the SLS career services office has really helped SLS students, though. Harvard is just too big to devise personalized plans for everyone.

miamiman
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby miamiman » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:46 pm

Um....glad to hear that the T3 are weathering the storm.


how about EVERY other T14 that's getting their asses handed to them...

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ConMan345
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby ConMan345 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:48 pm

It should be noted, also, that many people had to go with their 2nd or 3rd choice to get a job. It was very messy as far as expectations, but almost everyone has something.

270910
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby 270910 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:56 pm

ConMan345 wrote:It should be noted, also, that many people had to go with their 2nd or 3rd choice to get a job. It was very messy as far as expectations, but almost everyone has something.


Almost everyone has something through most of the T14 - but as you noted, a lot of people are forced into positions that were somewhere between 'unideal' and 'in prior years would only have considered as a 1L'.

It's not that hard for a top school to get 2Ls summer jobs, the important statistic is 'jobs they were gunning for' - chiefly big firm jobs, but also govt/pi work.

bigben
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby bigben » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:41 pm

miamiman wrote:Um....glad to hear that the T3 are weathering the storm.


how about EVERY other T14 that's getting their asses handed to them...

*sigh*

95% of HLS 2Ls have jobs...but what kind of jobs?

2 SLS 2Ls don't have jobs...but what jobs do the others have?

145k average salary for those going to firms...but how many didn't get to go to firms?

Not trying to say things are bad at the top 3, I just get annoyed when people see statistics with big numbers and declare that everything is great.

wesleybs
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby wesleybs » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:10 am

Hopefully the .pdf I linked re-emphasizes the fact that even t14 schools are really struggling to get jobs for their students/grads. Also, when you read that a t14 still has a high % employed for 2L or upon graduation, read that in light of the .pdf and you should realize that many of that 96% or whatever the number may be are not working BigLaw whereas pre-'08, a much larger portion of that number was composed of students and alum heading to BigLaw and big salaries. Now, I'm willing to guess that a surprisingly large portion of the employment % from even the t14 is made up of students doing public interest, non-law, business, and some small and mid-law work (and not because students just decided those were areas they wanted). I still believe that the t14 investment is the best investment you can make if you are going to lawschool (aside from weighing a free-ride with and low opportunity costs for students straight out of undergrad), but it is a hard time even at the best schools in the country. (This last sentence was more for any 0Ls who happen to be browsing through this forum).

miamiman
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby miamiman » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:24 am

Here's to hoping fall 2011 is better!

Renzo
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby Renzo » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:28 pm

Here's the most telling fact from that report:


Programs Implemented as Result of Economic Downturn
...
Created or provided on-campus post-graduate jobs: 42.0% of schools


Half the schools in the country created fake jobs so they could lie about their employment statistics

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ConMan345
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:37 pm

bigben wrote:
miamiman wrote:Um....glad to hear that the T3 are weathering the storm.


how about EVERY other T14 that's getting their asses handed to them...

*sigh*

95% of HLS 2Ls have jobs...but what kind of jobs?

2 SLS 2Ls don't have jobs...but what jobs do the others have?

145k average salary for those going to firms...but how many didn't get to go to firms?

Not trying to say things are bad at the top 3, I just get annoyed when people see statistics with big numbers and declare that everything is great.


ConMan345 wrote:It should be noted, also, that many people had to go with their 2nd or 3rd choice to get a job. It was very messy as far as expectations, but almost everyone has something.


Right, like I said.

In any case, the figures are more useful for comparative purposes.

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JCougar
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Re: T14 students shut out of OCI and clerkships

Postby JCougar » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:45 pm

Renzo wrote:
JCougar wrote: Any law firm that simply hands out positions to associates who got a 3.3 instead of a 3.1 is a pretty dumb law firm.


I was with you until this. The bare fact of the matter is that many firms do have GPA cutoffs. It's not that they are going to take a 3.41 over a 3.32 every single time, instead it's that both of those candidates will be considered, while someone with a below-the-line GPA won't.


I guess was assuming that both candidates were above that threshhold for said firm. Of course, the 3.3 student would probably be above more firms' threshholds and thus have have more interivews, but being a complete douchenozzle will get him/her rejected at all firms, while the 3.1 student might get the offer from one of the two firms he/she interviews at.




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