Questions to patent lawyers or people who know about it Forum

[wiseowl]

The market is suffering so much that people are scrambling to get patent examiner positions.

this is a bit overstated. the pto was on a hiring freeze until about 6 weeks ago and then they announced they would *maybe* hire a few hundred examiners if the budget came through, with preference given to past examiners.

desparate 2L/3Ls are scrambling for anything.

[zreinhar]

Did you pass the patent bar yet?

No. I've been told by numerous people that it doesn't factor much into hiring. You're generally not allowed to sign off on any work with your USPTO credentials until you have several years of experience. It's quite common to have practicing attorneys prosecute patents w/o their reg number.

I know several 2Ls and 3Ls who have passed the patent bar and are without internships or jobs.

The market is suffering so much that people are scrambling to get patent examiner positions.

This is credited. The only reason Im taking it is because I want to get it out of the way. Most of the stuff you learn on the job anyways, but I figure its another good thing to have, and most people I know got theirs after they worked as a tech spec for a little while.

Lostjake, you never answered my response for the EET bashing

[lostjake]

http://www.asme.org/Communities/Student ... h_Take.cfm

EET=/= engineer

I went to a large engineering university (one of the "tech" schools) and it always bothered me when an ET would represent themselves as an engineer. I've even known a couple to put this on their resumes.

[thwalls]

Just to throw my hat in the ring.

I'm defending my Ph.D. in Organic chemistry next week, I'm taking the patent bar on May 18th down here in Virginia, and I'm lined up to start Law School PT at Temple University in the fall.

In my preparation for IP law and the patent bar (which I'm doing mostly to get the test out of the way since I've got lots of spare time on my hands) I've discovered two things.

1) Most people who know what industries are important are full of crap.

2) Getting a patent agent job is damn near impossible unless you have at least 6 months to a year of claims writing experience.


As for the first thing. Your speciality and its marketability is highly region specific. For example, if you want to work in silicon valley, you're probably looking at CS and EE as being the most marketable specialities. But if you're out in my neck of the woods in the Delaware Valley, you can't throw a rock without hitting a pharmaceutical company and Organic Chemistry (my specialty) is one of the most desired IF you have pharma/med chem experience. So it all depends. And if you decide to go to law school, look for what industries are hot in the region of the school. Don't just go to "the best" law school you can get into if it turns out that your specific industry is dead in that region. There's something to be said for going to law school where you want to stay.

But listen to me, I'm going on and on about what's important for IP law. Remember my first rule...I too am full of crap.

Best of luck to you.

[zreinhar]

http://www.asme.org/Communities/Student ... h_Take.cfm

EET=/= engineer

I went to a large engineering university (one of the "tech" schools) and it always bothered me when an ET would represent themselves as an engineer. I've even known a couple to put this on their resumes.

Thank you for at least being level-headed about it. I wholeheartedly agree that an EET is not an Engineer. (have had some kids who got lower standardized test scores than me, but are eng majors call me an idiot for going into ET, buts thats neither here nor there) But my caveat is that my school used to be part of a big tech school (shouldnt be hard to figure out) so I got alot of shit for choosing the EET degree over the EE degree from the big name school. But I took the same classes as an EE even though I got an EET degree. (Calc I,II,II, Thermo, e-mag, etc.) because I wanted to show myself I could handle that level of "theoretical" coursework. I also passed the FE and am employed as an "engineer," however, I have spelled out word for word on my resume "Bachelor's of Science In Electrical Engineering Technology"

So I'm cool with being second rate

Also, just for reference:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/dcom/olia/oed/grb.pdf

I qualify under category A, B, and C. So, this:

Advice: Do not accept advice from someone with an EET degree in IP matters.

is wholly irrelevant. If it said in engineering matters, I would agree

Out of curiosity what school did you go to?


And lastly Im getting an MSEE from USC, so I will be an Engineer on all fronts

[zreinhar]

Just to throw my hat in the ring.

I'm defending my Ph.D. in Organic chemistry next week, I'm taking the patent bar on May 18th down here in Virginia, and I'm lined up to start Law School PT at Temple University in the fall.

In my preparation for IP law and the patent bar (which I'm doing mostly to get the test out of the way since I've got lots of spare time on my hands) I've discovered two things.

1) Most people who know what industries are important are full of crap.

2) Getting a patent agent job is damn near impossible unless you have at least 6 months to a year of claims writing experience.


As for the first thing. Your speciality and its marketability is highly region specific. For example, if you want to work in silicon valley, you're probably looking at CS and EE as being the most marketable specialities. But if you're out in my neck of the woods in the Delaware Valley, you can't throw a rock without hitting a pharmaceutical company and Organic Chemistry (my specialty) is one of the most desired IF you have pharma/med chem experience. So it all depends. And if you decide to go to law school, look for what industries are hot in the region of the school. Don't just go to "the best" law school you can get into if it turns out that your specific industry is dead in that region. There's something to be said for going to law school where you want to stay.

But listen to me, I'm going on and on about what's important for IP law. Remember my first rule...I too am full of crap.

Best of luck to you.

I agree with this as well, from what Ive found on the other listed forums on here, most likely, ITE your first job will be unpaid unless you get very lucky. (thats how it worked out for me) but because of that internship experience and an odd connection, I have a job in IP right now. The pay isn't amazing, but I'll take it.

Thwalls, what are you using to study for the patent bar? and have you heard of a student associateship? Im sure you would be highly valued with your PhD, especially in your region.

[09042014]

A 1L at Northwestern said the EE's in his class got paid summer work this year. I dunno how much I should trust word of mouth though.

[thwalls]

Just to throw my hat in the ring.

I'm defending my Ph.D. in Organic chemistry next week, I'm taking the patent bar on May 18th down here in Virginia, and I'm lined up to start Law School PT at Temple University in the fall.

In my preparation for IP law and the patent bar (which I'm doing mostly to get the test out of the way since I've got lots of spare time on my hands) I've discovered two things.

1) Most people who know what industries are important are full of crap.

2) Getting a patent agent job is damn near impossible unless you have at least 6 months to a year of claims writing experience.


As for the first thing. Your speciality and its marketability is highly region specific. For example, if you want to work in silicon valley, you're probably looking at CS and EE as being the most marketable specialities. But if you're out in my neck of the woods in the Delaware Valley, you can't throw a rock without hitting a pharmaceutical company and Organic Chemistry (my specialty) is one of the most desired IF you have pharma/med chem experience. So it all depends. And if you decide to go to law school, look for what industries are hot in the region of the school. Don't just go to "the best" law school you can get into if it turns out that your specific industry is dead in that region. There's something to be said for going to law school where you want to stay.

But listen to me, I'm going on and on about what's important for IP law. Remember my first rule...I too am full of crap.

Best of luck to you.

I agree with this as well, from what Ive found on the other listed forums on here, most likely, ITE your first job will be unpaid unless you get very lucky. (thats how it worked out for me) but because of that internship experience and an odd connection, I have a job in IP right now. The pay isn't amazing, but I'll take it.

Thwalls, what are you using to study for the patent bar? and have you heard of a student associateship? Im sure you would be highly valued with your PhD, especially in your region.

I used mostly the free websites online such as http://www.freepatentbar.com and mypatentbar.com. In addition I ponied up the cash and bought the Bullseye patent bar course which was about $30. The major way I studied for the exam is by brute force. I read every outline I could get my hands on, I've made my own outlines of important material including MPEP 700, MPEP 2100, and Appendix R Section 1. I've also been working problems like a mad man. Right now I can get in the 80's. I figure after about four more weeks of grinding 4 hours a day 7 days a week, I'll be good to go. The test really isn't all that bad as long as you put the work into it.

I haven't heard about student associateships. I tried the technical advisor route starting in January and after 3 months of cold calling and sending out CV's I got no where. I was told by a recruiter point blank that no law firm will even look at me without the patent bar under my belt. So right now, before I finish my PhD I'm looking for just about any job and even that is difficult all by itself. I'm hoping for medical writing position since it's in my field and the writing experience will look good on my resume. The Job market is just killer though. I've been in research for 5 years and with the layoffs in big pharma there is just nothing out there.

[jerjon2]

A 1L at Northwestern said the EE's in his class got paid summer work this year. I dunno how much I should trust word of mouth though.

I've heard the same kinds of sentiments from people I've talked to at U of C. They seem to suggest that the people with EE backgrounds were at Chicago were fairing better than most others at OCI.

[notyou]

The market is suffering so much that people are scrambling to get patent examiner positions.

this is a bit overstated. the pto was on a hiring freeze until about 6 weeks ago and then they announced they would *maybe* hire a few hundred examiners if the budget came through, with preference given to past examiners.

desparate 2L/3Ls are scrambling for anything.

I was told that they're currently holding interviews for 250 experienced patent professionals. They had over 4000 resumes submitted.

[zreinhar]

I recently applied for an examiner position, I also went to the extent of emailing the art groups I was interested in and they said that they werent looking for anyone for entry-level examiner positions but had mentioned something along the lines of 'experienced' examiners. However I did hear that advanced degrees and research exp were pretty highly sought after (I asked because of my less than known undergrad) But Ive also heard the new goal for the PTO will be to bring on about 400 new people as mentioned above. They also pay okay for the kids who go to law school at night and actually stay at the PTO after they graduate... They will also pay for law school after youve been there for a few years

[Anonymous User]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

[09042014]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

That tier of schools.

I heard the IP people at NU were doing well, and the EE's were getting 1L jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

That tier of schools.

I heard the IP people at NU were doing well, and the EE's were getting 1L jobs.

I am at a T10 known for IP that isn't Stanford. Gotcha.

[notyou]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

The hiring without stellar grades comes from the fact that a certain portion of IP hiring (patent prosecution) cares more about technical credentials rather than legal credentials.

IP people can get interviews and internships. But a lot of people are falling through the cracks from no offers or layoffs. There's quite a glut of newbies out there. There's not much out there for those people. It's a serious gamble right now.

I've talked to multiple people (in schools from t14 to t2) who are currently shut out, talked to lawyers at small firms where they are hiring interns with incredible credentials (due to the economy) who would otherwise not look at them, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

I agree. That guy who claims he has "been told by numerous people that [passing the patent bar] doesn't factor much into hiring" is not to be trusted. That statement is so far from the truth it makes me doubt if he is even a law student. And you don't have to take my word for it either, but I strongly urge you to go straight to the source for advice on these matters.

[notyou]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

I agree. That guy who claims he has "been told by numerous people that [passing the patent bar] doesn't factor much into hiring" is not to be trusted. That statement is so far from the truth it makes me doubt if he is even a law student. And you don't have to take my word for it either, but I strongly urge you to go straight to the source for advice on these matters.

It can certainly help, but it's not a huge factor. It won't overcome some deficiency in the technical background, for example. Just search intelproplaw: http://www.intelproplaw.com/ip_forum/in ... 882.0.html

The patent bar is procedural rules. Most new associates will not be allowed to use their registration # until several years of practice. It's a much simpler thing to study for when you've been practicing the major sections of it.

[Anonymous User]

Am I living in a parallel universe?

The IP people at my school tended to do quite well in OCI, even without stellar grades. Some 1Ls got firm jobs as well.

I agree. That guy who claims he has "been told by numerous people that [passing the patent bar] doesn't factor much into hiring" is not to be trusted. That statement is so far from the truth it makes me doubt if he is even a law student. And you don't have to take my word for it either, but I strongly urge you to go straight to the source for advice on these matters.

Yeah, I am a patent agent as well (same poster as above). I have heard it can never hurt, esp. for pros. but even for lit.

[zreinhar]

that was me who said pasing the patent bar doesnt help all that much. I was referring to associate employment, not anything over the summer while in school (and was really thinking more about my situation where Im looking for employment before law school) to clarify. for summer assocaite positions (1L, 2L) it can really help. above poster is correct in that my statement was off.

[dajja15]

So is the general consensus right now that even if you go to a T14, it is very hard to find jobs/internships for patent lawyers. I am getting scarred and maybe I will just stick to engineering, but I was so excited to go to school....

[Anonymous User]

So is the general consensus right now that even if you go to a T14, it is very hard to find jobs/internships for patent lawyers. I am getting scarred and maybe I will just stick to engineering, but I was so excited to go to school....

Definitely think it through before you give up on engineering. It's not all candy and rainbows out there for patent folks. I only know of two people with market rate 1L firm gigs at my T14. One went to the number 1 person in the class, the second to an MS EE in the top 15% of the class. I'm sure things will be better for 2L hiring, but I don't have hard data on that yet.

[Anonymous User]

So is the general consensus right now that even if you go to a T14, it is very hard to find jobs/internships for patent lawyers. I am getting scarred and maybe I will just stick to engineering, but I was so excited to go to school....

Definitely think it through before you give up on engineering. It's not all candy and rainbows out there for patent folks. I only know of two people with market rate 1L firm gigs at my T14. One went to the number 1 person in the class, the second to an MS EE in the top 15% of the class. I'm sure things will be better for 2L hiring, but I don't have hard data on that yet.

What about current 2Ls? That is some hard data.

[Leeroy Jenkins]

What about current 2Ls? That is some hard data.

EE's get jobs even at the bottom of their class at t25's, everyone else is SOL

hth

[Anonymous User]

So is the general consensus right now that even if you go to a T14, it is very hard to find jobs/internships for patent lawyers. I am getting scarred and maybe I will just stick to engineering, but I was so excited to go to school....

Definitely think it through before you give up on engineering. It's not all candy and rainbows out there for patent folks. I only know of two people with market rate 1L firm gigs at my T14. One went to the number 1 person in the class, the second to an MS EE in the top 15% of the class. I'm sure things will be better for 2L hiring, but I don't have hard data on that yet.

What about current 2Ls? That is some hard data.

Hasn't been released yet, but I'll bother the Career Services folks for it.

[09042014]

What about current 2Ls? That is some hard data.

EE's get jobs even at the bottom of their class at t25's, everyone else is SOL

hth

How bottom is bottom?