Alternatives to OCI

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nyc1213
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Alternatives to OCI

Postby nyc1213 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:58 am

Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?

Anonymous User
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:20 am

nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.

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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


Not true. OP is looking at a T14. My guess is that it is Berkeley or Stanford. ITE firms that don't traditionally pull huge numbers at T14s (due to self-selection) aren't sending out for OCI. It's not that they don't want students from those schools, but rather that they haven't gotten enough to justify the cost and time to OCI. NYC is not an insular market and no T14 is a hard sell there.

I wouldn't do a mail merge dump, but well crafted letters explaining one's interest in the firm should do the trick (assuming proper rank/grades). If the OP mentions days that he or she will be in NYC, that will facilitate the process as well.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:22 am

Well if nothing else:

Mass mailing in law school>>>>>(x100)>>mass mailing after you have graduated from school.

From my 1L OCI/hiring season, mass mailing is pretty effective. Of course, you need the grades to make it worthwhile to the firm (Otherwise you are wasting your time-at least top 33%, regardless of the school-no one is going to go out of their way to hire someone at median).

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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


(unless it's Stanford, then you'll be fine mass mailing)

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RVP11
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby RVP11 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.

Action Jackson
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Action Jackson » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:37 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.

You're assuming the cost of OCI is prohibitive. That's not what's going on. The firms that aren't visiting schools aren't visiting them because they're really not interested in hiring.

Renzo
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:43 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.

You're assuming the cost of OCI is prohibitive. That's not what's going on. The firms that aren't visiting schools aren't visiting them because they're really not interested in hiring.

Not true. As an example, there are plenty of California firms that would hire CLS/NYU grads, but don't come to OCI because there are not consistently enough CLS/NYU students who want to go to the far coast to make it worth their time. I'm certain the same goes for NYC firms at Stanford/UCB.

Anonymous User
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:44 pm

RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.


Firms are visiting a fewer # of schools because there are hiring less people in general. A lot less people. As a result all the people at schools that they traditionally visited are mass mailing (as are students from schools that these firms don't typically do OCI at). The end result is a ton of application for a small number of positions. E.g. if a firm is taking on 9 SAs for the summer (such as Skadden Chicago), and that office is already visiting the entire t14 schools (which it probably is), and they only have one interviewer for the Chicago office (not true, they had 2-3) then that would be 20 interviews per school * 14 schools = 280 screening interviews already for 9 spots. They really don't need or want to waste their time interviewing even more people through mass mailings because they can very easily pick 9 people out of the 280 they interviewed.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:47 pm

There is some ridiculous conjecture going on here. Mailing a cover letter/resume is still a viable and effective tool, especially for firms that do not conduct OCI at your school.

OP, the firm I hoped to work at most did not do OCI at my school this year. Sending a targeted cover letter and resume got me an interview and a SA job with them this summer. I managed to get interviews with other large firms that did not conduct OCI at our school, and know others who secured SA jobs by the same target letter/resume process.

Action Jackson wrote:You're assuming the cost of OCI is prohibitive. That's not what's going on. The firms that aren't visiting schools aren't visiting them because they're really not interested in hiring.


Not true, especially in the case of t14 schools.

Anonymous User
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.


Firms are visiting a fewer # of schools because there are hiring less people in general. A lot less people. As a result all the people at schools that they traditionally visited are mass mailing (as are students from schools that these firms don't typically do OCI at). The end result is a ton of application for a small number of positions. E.g. if a firm is taking on 9 SAs for the summer (such as Skadden Chicago), and that office is already visiting the entire t14 schools (which it probably is), and they only have one interviewer for the Chicago office (not true, they had 2-3) then that would be 20 interviews per school * 14 schools = 280 screening interviews already for 9 spots. They really don't need or want to waste their time interviewing even more people through mass mailings because they can very easily pick 9 people out of the 280 they interviewed.


TCR. It's unusual, not impossible, but unusual, to score biglaw outside of OCI b/c firms at not hiring period or could care less about screening for just a handful of people out of hundreds of applicants. There's no point when they have plenty of good applicants at the reduced number of top 14s they are doing OCI at.

Mass mailing works for midlaw and small law, but in general it does not work for biglaw. I don't see why people argue with this...biglaw firms have enough applicants as it is out of the OCIs they attend for the few spots they have open.

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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:15 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Well if nothing else:

Mass mailing in law school>>>>>(x100)>>mass mailing after you have graduated from school.

From my 1L OCI/hiring season, mass mailing is pretty effective. Of course, you need the grades to make it worthwhile to the firm (Otherwise you are wasting your time-at least top 33%, regardless of the school-no one is going to go out of their way to hire someone at median).


1L OCI? :?: Do 1L SA positions even lead to long-term offers?

We're talking about BIG LAW FIRMS in primary markets that usually go to 2L OCI, hiring for SA positions that potentially lead to long-term offers. It's unusual to get hired at NLJ 250 via mass mailing ITE (unless you are at HYS maybe). But fwiw, Stanford still gets over 300 offices from around the country for only 180 or so students, so I don't think we're talking about Stanford here.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
TCR. It's unusual, not impossible, but unusual, to score biglaw outside of OCI b/c firms at not hiring period or could care less about screening for just a handful of people out of hundreds of applicants. There's no point when they have plenty of good applicants at the reduced number of top 14s they are doing OCI at.

Mass mailing works for midlaw and small law, but in general it does not work for biglaw. I don't see why people argue with this...biglaw firms have enough applicants as it is out of the OCIs they attend for the few spots they have open.


Because people who have actually gone through the process realize targeted letters to firms that do not do OCI at your school are an excellent way of supplementing the job search? Because I can name myself, both my roommates, and a few other current 2Ls who all landed BigLaw jobs by sending letters?

And why the hell are you posting anonymously?

Anonymous User
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:19 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
TCR. It's unusual, not impossible, but unusual, to score biglaw outside of OCI b/c firms at not hiring period or could care less about screening for just a handful of people out of hundreds of applicants. There's no point when they have plenty of good applicants at the reduced number of top 14s they are doing OCI at.

Mass mailing works for midlaw and small law, but in general it does not work for biglaw. I don't see why people argue with this...biglaw firms have enough applicants as it is out of the OCIs they attend for the few spots they have open.


Because people who have actually gone through the process realize targeted letters to firms that do not do OCI at your school are an excellent way of supplementing the job search? Because I can name myself, both my roommates, and a few other current 2Ls who all landed BigLaw jobs by sending letters?

And why the hell are you posting anonymously?


What were your grades and what school? Were you locked out of your OCI because of grades or just preferred these firms over OCI offers? I go to a t-10 and most people I know with the grades to get biglaw at OCI landed it in the market they wanted VIA OCI. Others landed firm jobs via mailings, but for the most part they were not NLJ 250 firms. And others landed DOJ, other prestigious fed gov like SEC, prestigious PI like ACLU etc. all through mass mailings. I just think for NLJ 250, most of them don't give a rat's ass about mass mailings.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BradyToMoss wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
TCR. It's unusual, not impossible, but unusual, to score biglaw outside of OCI b/c firms at not hiring period or could care less about screening for just a handful of people out of hundreds of applicants. There's no point when they have plenty of good applicants at the reduced number of top 14s they are doing OCI at.

Mass mailing works for midlaw and small law, but in general it does not work for biglaw. I don't see why people argue with this...biglaw firms have enough applicants as it is out of the OCIs they attend for the few spots they have open.


Because people who have actually gone through the process realize targeted letters to firms that do not do OCI at your school are an excellent way of supplementing the job search? Because I can name myself, both my roommates, and a few other current 2Ls who all landed BigLaw jobs by sending letters?

And why the hell are you posting anonymously?


What were your grades and what school? I go to a t-10 and most people I know with the grades to get biglaw at OCI landed it in the market they wanted VIA OCI. Others landed firm jobs via mailings, but for the most part they were not NLJ 250 firms. And some people landed DOJ, other prestigious fed gov like SEC, etc. all through mass mailings. I just think for NLJ 250 most firms don't give a rat's ass about mass mailings.


Top-20 school, I had an excellent GPA but terrible resume besides that. Know two people who completely struck out at OCI (one around median, one around top 20%) and landed jobs with well respected biglaw firms through targeted mailing.

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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:33 pm

BradyToMoss wrote: Top-20 school, I had an excellent GPA but terrible resume besides that. Know two people who completely struck out at OCI (one around median, one around top 20%) and landed jobs with well respected biglaw firms through targeted mailing.


Congrats. It's not impossible for NLJ 250, but I still think it's more or less rare. I know plenty of people who landed firm jobs via mass mailing (and fwiw, half of my 1L friends have 1L SA positions at firms...not that they will lead to permanent offers...), but it doesn't mean that mass mailing works for NLJ 250 2L SA positions. If you think about it, if you have the grades, you will get biglaw via OCI. If you have the grades for OCI and decide you like a certain firm better that doesn't do OCI and you mass mail, you will be competing against students at similar schools where the offices already do OCI, many of them with similar class rankings. I just can't see offices taking the time to seriously read all the apps people mail when they already have so many interviews to conduct/qualified applicants at OCI. They'd have to take the time to interview you outside of OCI, you'd have to fly in, etc. when they already have so many qualified applicants who are automatically interviewed at OCI in a period of a week.

Mass mailing works really well for prestigious fed gov/midlaw/PI jobs though.

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RVP11
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby RVP11 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
nyc1213 wrote:Looking at the NALP directory, the T14 school I'm considering doesn't have a whole lot of NYC BigLaw firms doing OCI there. I'm assuming if the firm you want doesn't recruit on campus, you send a resume. How effective is that? If a firm isn't at OCI, should that be taken as a hint that they're not so in love with your school's students and not likely to hire?


NOT effective ite. Almost nobody gets "biglaw" via mass mailing now. (People are more successful mailing small/mid-sized firms. I'd go to the school that has offices from markets where you want to work.


This is just wrong.

If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.


Firms are visiting a fewer # of schools because there are hiring less people in general. A lot less people. As a result all the people at schools that they traditionally visited are mass mailing (as are students from schools that these firms don't typically do OCI at). The end result is a ton of application for a small number of positions. E.g. if a firm is taking on 9 SAs for the summer (such as Skadden Chicago), and that office is already visiting the entire t14 schools (which it probably is), and they only have one interviewer for the Chicago office (not true, they had 2-3) then that would be 20 interviews per school * 14 schools = 280 screening interviews already for 9 spots. They really don't need or want to waste their time interviewing even more people through mass mailings because they can very easily pick 9 people out of the 280 they interviewed.


You picked ONE office of ONE firm. Yeah, direct mailing to Skadden Chicago probably doesn't work. Try looking outside the household name firms.

Does it work for regional secondary market NLJ250 firms on the opposite side of the country who don't interview at your T14? Yah. Tons of these firms can't afford ITE to go to OCI anywhere other than the local schools.

Does it work for opposite coast Vault firms who for some random reason (likely lack of historic student interest) don't interview at your school? Yah.

I'm talking like someone from Penn mailing to Quinn Emanuel, or someone from UVA mailing to Irell, or someone from Stanford mailing to a regional firm in Denver. You think those firms aren't interested in students from those schools? :roll: :lol:

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underachiever
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby underachiever » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:49 pm

I hope target mass mailings work. I think I want to work in Ohio and only 2 Ohio firms interview at my school. So I plan to send the other 20 or so, "larger", firms targeted cover letters and my resume in July. Also I will be letting them know I will be in-state for a few weeks, working with a judge, if they would like to meet with me during that time.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
BradyToMoss wrote: Top-20 school, I had an excellent GPA but terrible resume besides that. Know two people who completely struck out at OCI (one around median, one around top 20%) and landed jobs with well respected biglaw firms through targeted mailing.


Congrats. It's not impossible for NLJ 250, but I still think it's more or less rare. I know plenty of people who landed firm jobs via mass mailing (and fwiw, half of my 1L friends have 1L SA positions at firms...not that they will lead to permanent offers...), but it doesn't mean that mass mailing works for NLJ 250 2L SA positions. If you think about it, if you have the grades, you will get biglaw via OCI. If you have the grades for OCI and decide you like a certain firm better that doesn't do OCI and you mass mail, you will be competing against students at similar schools where the offices already do OCI, many of them with similar class rankings. I just can't see offices taking the time to seriously read all the apps people mail when they already have so many interviews to conduct/qualified applicants at OCI. They'd have to take the time to interview you outside of OCI, you'd have to fly in, etc. when they already have so many qualified applicants who are automatically interviewed at OCI in a period of a week.

Mass mailing works really well for prestigious fed gov/midlaw/PI jobs though.


Again, the anonymous use is pretty ridiculous.

I'm talking about 2L SA positions, as was everyone else, not sure why you're bringing in this 1L SA nonsense. Everything else you said directly conflicts with examples I've seen first hand and already explained. You're conjecture and guesses are just that. I've given you the example of people who struck out with biglaw firms at OCI and managed to get positions with BigLaw firms that were better than a lot of the BigLaw firms who rejected them at OCI. OP is not even asking about such an extreme example, only if he could potentially have success with NY firms that do not attend his t14's OCI by contacting them via targeted letters/resume.

To keep ignorantly claiming that targeted mailings to firms are useless, while using the anonymous feature nonetheless, is counterproductive to this board's purposes.

Renzo
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:26 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:
To keep ignorantly claiming that targeted mailings to firms are useless, while using the anonymous feature nonetheless, is counterproductive to this board's purposes.

Join my social movement of not responding to any anonymous posts that don't clearly offer identifying personal information. Together we can stop this.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:34 pm

Renzo wrote:
BradyToMoss wrote:
To keep ignorantly claiming that targeted mailings to firms are useless, while using the anonymous feature nonetheless, is counterproductive to this board's purposes.

Join my social movement of not responding to any anonymous posts that don't clearly offer identifying personal information. Together we can stop this.


The problem is that most of the useless bullshit on the employment forum comes from anonymous posters. If people stop responding then there will be misleading advice all over the place.

Renzo
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:40 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:
Renzo wrote:
BradyToMoss wrote:
To keep ignorantly claiming that targeted mailings to firms are useless, while using the anonymous feature nonetheless, is counterproductive to this board's purposes.

Join my social movement of not responding to any anonymous posts that don't clearly offer identifying personal information. Together we can stop this.


The problem is that most of the useless bullshit on the employment forum comes from anonymous posters. If people stop responding then there will be misleading advice all over the place.

Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. My plan was formulated in response to the starting of anonymous threads. I guess it needs some work.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:If anything, a higher percentage of people who are getting big firm jobs are doing so through direct mailing than before. Firms are visiting fewer and fewer schools for OCI due to financial restrictions.

This concurs with what I have heard so far, at least at T14s. This is especially true if you have ties back to a local area you left to attend your T14; firms from that area may not send recruiters to your school, but they'll still take you very seriously if you mail them a resume and a cover letter explaining how you want to go back home and work there when you graduate. I've heard from a few people who've gotten job offers that way.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:43 pm

Renzo wrote:Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. My plan was formulated in response to the starting of anonymous threads. I guess it needs some work.

I recommend reformulating your plan so that people respond to such threads, but with LOLcats or other entertaining images.

Renzo
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Re: Alternatives to OCI

Postby Renzo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:45 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Renzo wrote:Yeah. I hadn't thought about that. My plan was formulated in response to the starting of anonymous threads. I guess it needs some work.

I recommend reformulating your plan so that people respond to such threads, but with LOLcats or other entertaining images.

Eh, I don't really love LOLcats or any other meme enough to be bothered to link images. But maybe.




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