for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
User avatar
underdawg
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:11 am

chadwick218 wrote:
underdawg wrote:wachtell's "cutoff" at NYU was/is a 3.5


That seems low, but wow! What is believed to be the top 10% mark at NYU?

MY POINT IS THAT CUTOFFS ARE OFTEN LUDICROUS AND NOT AT ALL REAL

way to cut off the "lololol" part

and who cares? you think top 10% at NYU is getting wachtell? don't believe what people say; anyone working at cravath, s&c, etc. would all rather work at WLRK

User avatar
Mattalones
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:18 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Mattalones » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:20 am

gdane5 wrote:The truth is that the government hires people from all walks of life. I feel confident that if I work hard, network effectively and stay positive, I can land a good government job.


http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


The link is a list of the schools that people who were in hired in 2008-9 attended. The list is 2 years old, but still telling of how its not always "t14 only".

No one from Cornell ...

User avatar
Mattalones
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:18 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Mattalones » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:29 am

acdisagod wrote:Your argument that ranking don't matter is that the top students at bad schools get good jobs. Well what about those at median and below? Compare apples to apples, not the top students at a t3 to the middle students at a t14.

Sometimes ranking don't matter ... I may chose Fordham over BU and Cornell, but it is likely that I will get the same type of NYC BigLaw jobs after school no matter which school I go to. While, I'd have to really think about choosing Fordham over Cornell, I might.

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:09 am

Fed govt agencies, including DOJ, hire from all over the place. These agencies are incredibly diverse, with people from all over the country and from a broad range of schools.. Not sure why everyone's panties are in a bunch.

I attend a CA T3 and will be working in DC for the SEC this summer.

User avatar
underdawg
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:23 am

Danteshek wrote:Fed govt agencies, including DOJ, hire from all over the place. These agencies are incredibly diverse, with people from all over the country and from a broad range of schools.. Not sure why everyone's panties are in a bunch.

I attend a CA T3 and will be working in DC for the SEC this summer.

um because i think people are talking about full time jobs, not summer jobs

Danteshek
Posts: 2172
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Danteshek » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:19 pm

underdawg wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Fed govt agencies, including DOJ, hire from all over the place. These agencies are incredibly diverse, with people from all over the country and from a broad range of schools.. Not sure why everyone's panties are in a bunch.

I attend a CA T3 and will be working in DC for the SEC this summer.

um because i think people are talking about full time jobs, not summer jobs


The attorneys in the agencies come from a very wide mix of schools. This idea that all (or most) federal government attorneys attended top schools is a 0L myth. My dad was at DOJ Civil Rights Division in the '70s and he said that his colleagues came from a very wide range of schools. And the government is even more PC now than it was in the '70s. School diversity in the agencies is the rule, not the exception. The SEC is similarly diverse.

User avatar
truthypants
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:50 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby truthypants » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:29 pm

Figured i'd post the latest stats for Mason's OCI in this thread for everyone's information:

Most students don't get their jobs through fall recruiting (OCI, resume collections, off-campus programs)
-Largest firms (700+) median number of offers dropped from 30 in 2007 to 18.5 in 2008 to 8 in 2009
-In Fall 2009, only 36.4% of callback interviews resulted in an offer. (2008: 46.6%; 2007: 60%+)
-Only 3% of firms recruited for 3L students in 2009 (2008: 25%; 2007 42%)


Again, prototypical lower tier 1 school--t-14 probably has much better stats while lower tier schools probably have much worse stats

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby 270910 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:37 pm

truthypants wrote:Figured i'd post the latest stats for Mason's OCI in this thread for everyone's information:

Most students don't get their jobs through fall recruiting (OCI, resume collections, off-campus programs)
-Largest firms (700+) median number of offers dropped from 30 in 2007 to 18.5 in 2008 to 8 in 2009
-In Fall 2009, only 36.4% of callback interviews resulted in an offer. (2008: 46.6%; 2007: 60%+)
-Only 3% of firms recruited for 3L students in 2009 (2008: 25%; 2007 42%)


Again, prototypical lower tier 1 school--t-14 probably has much better stats while lower tier schools probably have much worse stats


Quoted for tragedy

User avatar
underdawg
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:15 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:00 pm

Danteshek wrote:
underdawg wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Fed govt agencies, including DOJ, hire from all over the place. These agencies are incredibly diverse, with people from all over the country and from a broad range of schools.. Not sure why everyone's panties are in a bunch.

I attend a CA T3 and will be working in DC for the SEC this summer.

um because i think people are talking about full time jobs, not summer jobs


The attorneys in the agencies come from a very wide mix of schools. This idea that all (or most) federal government attorneys attended top schools is a 0L myth. My dad was at DOJ Civil Rights Division in the '70s and he said that his colleagues came from a very wide range of schools. And the government is even more PC now than it was in the '70s. School diversity in the agencies is the rule, not the exception. The SEC is similarly diverse.

not saying you are definitely wrong, but lots of firms that are almost strictly T14 now used to hire from more places. just like how when you look at law school faculty pages, almost any prof who is not T14 (or heck, HYS), is older

i just hope you geniuses are thinking all these assumptions through, i admittedly don't know jack about federal hiring practices. but the assumptions that some of you are making are pretty problematic

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby 270910 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:07 pm

underdawg wrote:when you look at law school faculty pages, almost any prof who is not T14 (or heck, HYS), is older


lol. That's not even close to true.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby RVP11 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:25 pm

truthypants wrote:Figured i'd post the latest stats for Mason's OCI in this thread for everyone's information:

Most students don't get their jobs through fall recruiting (OCI, resume collections, off-campus programs)
-Largest firms (700+) median number of offers dropped from 30 in 2007 to 18.5 in 2008 to 8 in 2009
-In Fall 2009, only 36.4% of callback interviews resulted in an offer. (2008: 46.6%; 2007: 60%+)
-Only 3% of firms recruited for 3L students in 2009 (2008: 25%; 2007 42%)


Again, prototypical lower tier 1 school--t-14 probably has much better stats while lower tier schools probably have much worse stats


How can 18.5 be a median?

linquest
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:06 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby linquest » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:49 pm

truthypants wrote:here is an example :

To qualify for the position, an applicant must be at the time of hire a law school graduate (J.D. or LL.B.) who possesses superior legal writing skills and meets one of the following criteria:

-Academic standing in the top one-third of his/her law school graduating class;
-Law review;
-Special honors for academic excellence in law school;
-Winning of a moot court competition or membership on the moot court team;
-Full-time or continuous participation in a legal aid program; or
-Significant summer law clerk experience.


That position is with the Department of Labor (i.e., typical, standard federal agency). Also, that is their cutoff for a lower tier 1 school. Obviously, if you want an uber-prestigious agency (e.g. USAO or something), the standards will be higher. Not sure about grade cutoffs for t-14, but again, this is the standard coming from a lower tier 1. hth


Did we forget how to read in context? Top 1/3 of class standing is only ONE of SIX credential options. No mention of law school rank either. In fact, I have a classmate (from my lower Tier 2 school that doesn't even bother with class ranking) that was hired by the DOL within the last 3 years under that same qualifications description. The only credentials she had from that list were moot court and clerking experience, but she was able to distinguish herself in other areas including significant related pre-law school experience.

ScaredWorkedBored's post from the DOJ Inspector General's report is a pretty good description of how different credentials are weighed in different offices even within an "elite" federal agency. Sure, top school/class ranking increases your chances of getting hired, but it's not important (or even a consideration) to every individual with hiring authority. The truth of the matter is, you cannot predict what every federal hiring manager is looking for. No one should assume that they can't get the job just based on their school/class rank.

rockstar4488
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:39 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby rockstar4488 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:49 am

I currently work for the Department of Commerce so I believe I have some nsight as far as the federal hiring process. I don't work in HR and I'm not an expert, but here's roughly how it works...

- You go on usajobs.gov or another portal and apply for a position.
- Your application is then evaluated by the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), who look at the requirements for the job and then qualify you or don't qualify you. This is where that list comes into play. Someone who is not interviewing you and has nothing to do with your potential job is just checking you against that list to make sure you're qualified.
- Assuming you qualify, you can then be interviewed by the people that want to hire you. This is where it matters as far as what the individual hiring manager is looking for.
- You get hired, work 37.5h a week, get non-competitive raises to 156k, get 5-6 weeks leave a year, your sanity, an early retirement age, and a pension!

Anyways, in all seriousness, I just want to emphasize the disconnect between the person judging whether you are qualified and the person hiring you.

User avatar
klussy
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby klussy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:16 am

RVP11 wrote:
truthypants wrote:Figured i'd post the latest stats for Mason's OCI in this thread for everyone's information:

Most students don't get their jobs through fall recruiting (OCI, resume collections, off-campus programs)
-Largest firms (700+) median number of offers dropped from 30 in 2007 to 18.5 in 2008 to 8 in 2009
-In Fall 2009, only 36.4% of callback interviews resulted in an offer. (2008: 46.6%; 2007: 60%+)
-Only 3% of firms recruited for 3L students in 2009 (2008: 25%; 2007 42%)


Again, prototypical lower tier 1 school--t-14 probably has much better stats while lower tier schools probably have much worse stats


How can 18.5 be a median?


If the set of data is an even number and the two middle numbers are unequal :idea:

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:27 am

I feel as though the people on this forum are just breading the falsehoods spread throughout this forum.

I personally know an individual from a Tier-2 school who was accepted for the DOJ Honors Program this year. He is not top 10% of the class but he has good grades, and a member of a law journal, among other things. The fact that you go to a T-14 does not necessarily negate your "poor" performance at that school.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:04 am

I'm currently interning in the general counsel for one of the big departments/agencies in Washington. I'd say about 60% of the attorneys here went to one of Harvard, Yale, or Georgetown, and about 90% went to a T14.

Anonymous User
Posts: 273397
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:41 am

rockstar4488 wrote:I currently work for the Department of Commerce so I believe I have some nsight as far as the federal hiring process. I don't work in HR and I'm not an expert, but here's roughly how it works...

- You go on usajobs.gov or another portal and apply for a position.
- Your application is then evaluated by the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), who look at the requirements for the job and then qualify you or don't qualify you. This is where that list comes into play. Someone who is not interviewing you and has nothing to do with your potential job is just checking you against that list to make sure you're qualified.
- Assuming you qualify, you can then be interviewed by the people that want to hire you. This is where it matters as far as what the individual hiring manager is looking for.
- You get hired, work 37.5h a week, get non-competitive raises to 156k, get 5-6 weeks leave a year, your sanity, an early retirement age, and a pension!

Anyways, in all seriousness, I just want to emphasize the disconnect between the person judging whether you are qualified and the person hiring you.


The above shows why it's dangerous for OLs to try giving advice in this forum. This is not how *attorney* positions are filled, which typically fall under the Schedule A excepted service from the normal federal competitive hiring process. Under 5 CFR § 213.3102, OPM cannot determine or evaluate qualifications for attorney/law clerk trainee (the interim title for recent law school grads before they are admitted to a state bar) positions. Agencies are required to establish their own qualifications. They are not required to work with OPM at all, post attorney vacancies to usajobs.com (though an agency may make that a requirement of their hiring managers), or even publicly post the position.

The majority of attorney positions are filled directly with the agencies. Many agencies hire new law grads only through their annual Honors Programs, where the applications are typically collected at the agency's HQ and then forwarded to the hiring managers to select who they want to interview and hire. A hiring manager might also decide to post a job in just a couple of places to limit the number of applications. For example, my own office (not a HQ office), recently posted an attorney opening only with three local law schools (ranked in Tiers 1, 2, and 3) because the hiring manager felt that finding someone committed to staying at our office (rather than someone likely to transfer out or move elsewhere) was more important than school ranking. Also, if you see a position posted to usajobs.com with an extremely short application deadline, oftentimes the hiring manager already has a good idea of who they want to hire, but may be posting the job only as a formality.

Another point I'd like to add is that offices outside of DC (which is 85% of federal service!) tend to be less focused on law school rank and other "prestige" factors. This is especially true in areas that are not major legal markets. In my office, you'll find attorneys from schools in all tiers. Not a single one of our roughly 15 attorneys is a T14 grad.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.