for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

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truthypants
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for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby truthypants » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:16 am

here is an example :

To qualify for the position, an applicant must be at the time of hire a law school graduate (J.D. or LL.B.) who possesses superior legal writing skills and meets one of the following criteria:

-Academic standing in the top one-third of his/her law school graduating class;
-Law review;
-Special honors for academic excellence in law school;
-Winning of a moot court competition or membership on the moot court team;
-Full-time or continuous participation in a legal aid program; or
-Significant summer law clerk experience.


That position is with the Department of Labor (i.e., typical, standard federal agency). Also, that is their cutoff for a lower tier 1 school. Obviously, if you want an uber-prestigious agency (e.g. USAO or something), the standards will be higher. Not sure about grade cutoffs for t-14, but again, this is the standard coming from a lower tier 1. hth

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Genki
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Genki » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:33 am

truthypants wrote:here is an example :

To qualify for the position, an applicant must be at the time of hire a law school graduate (J.D. or LL.B.) who possesses superior legal writing skills and meets one of the following criteria:

-Academic standing in the top one-third of his/her law school graduating class;
-Law review;
-Special honors for academic excellence in law school;
-Winning of a moot court competition or membership on the moot court team;
-Full-time or continuous participation in a legal aid program; or
-Significant summer law clerk experience.


That position is with the Department of Labor (i.e., typical, standard federal agency). Also, that is their cutoff for a lower tier 1 school. Obviously, if you want an uber-prestigious agency (e.g. USAO or something), the standards will be higher. Not sure about grade cutoffs for t-14, but again, this is the standard coming from a lower tier 1. hth


Thanks for the info.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:33 pm

What do you mean this is the cutoff for lower tier 1? Is there a special set of more lenient requirements for t14 graduates?

Ive looked into federal government positions since Im very interested in a DOJ position and all I know is that they want people at the top of their respective classes. There is no distinction between t14 and non t14. It seems like many people feel very self entitled. "I went to a t14, so I should get all the jobs in the world." A person that graduates at the top of their class from UMiami didnt work any less that a person that graduated at the median at Harvard. In my opinion, the UMiami grad worked harder. Ultimately, hard work should be rewarded, not name recognition.

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chicoalto0649
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby chicoalto0649 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:37 pm

gdane5 wrote:A person that graduates at the top of their class from UMiami didnt work any less that a person that graduated at the median at Harvard. In my opinion, the UMiami grad worked harder. Ultimately, hard work should be rewarded, not name recognition.


--ImageRemoved--

Kretzy
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Kretzy » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:45 pm

gdane5 wrote:What do you mean this is the cutoff for lower tier 1? Is there a special set of more lenient requirements for t14 graduates?

Ive looked into federal government positions since Im very interested in a DOJ position and all I know is that they want people at the top of their respective classes. There is no distinction between t14 and non t14. It seems like many people feel very self entitled. "I went to a t14, so I should get all the jobs in the world." A person that graduates at the top of their class from UMiami didnt work any less that a person that graduated at the median at Harvard. In my opinion, the UMiami grad worked harder. Ultimately, hard work should be rewarded, not name recognition.


The bolded is simply not true, according to folks I've spoken to in both run-of-the-mill federal agencies, prestigious positions such as DOJ, and even prestigious state government positions.

Is the person who graduated top 3% at Miami possibly a better attorney than someone at median at Harvard? Very well could be. They're also the exception, rather than the rule. We don't know that they've worked harder, we just assume so because folks love a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" story.

Playing probability doesn't make someone reek of entitlement, it means they've done adequate research into hiring. Firms, the government, PI organizations, and even military JAG give much more leniency to top school grads. It's the face of the legal market.

swester
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby swester » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:47 pm

No offense, but your noble Horatio Alger assumption is incorrect.

For gov't work, just as in BigLaw, you are far better off with ANY ranking at Harvard than even the top of your class at TTT (except possibly for #1 in the class). The government doesn't just want hard workers - getting through law school anywhere takes hard work, and they are aware of that.

Since they can take their pick of new hires from the enormous oversupply of attorneys, they have the luxury of aiming for the top performers intellectually. Rather than take a risk on a #2 at Brooklyn, it's a pretty safe bet for them to go with top 25% at a top-14. If you were able to get IN to Harvard, you had at the very least a 170. At Brooklyn, there's no telling what got you in there (generally, just your tuition check).

So explain to me, why would they bother looking lower than T-14? Courtesy? Pity?

Kretzy
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Kretzy » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Double post, for some strange reason. Deleted.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:51 pm

Yea it just seems very, for lack of a better word, unfair. I wonder how many people go to harvard and say "Ok im in. Now ill just coast by and when I graduate, even if im at or under the median, ill get a biglaw job".

I understand that the people that go to harvard are very talented and had good grades in UG and a good LSAT score, but you havent earned your stripes. I liken it to the NFL rookies that are drafted in the top 3 and get huge, ridiculous contracts even though they never played a down in the NFL. Yea they showed talent in college, but its what they do in the NFL that matters.

Point is that law seems to be very elitist focused. Those at the top reap all the benefits. Oh well, its the way of the world.

swester
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby swester » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:56 pm

gdane5 wrote:Yea it just seems very, for lack of a better word, unfair. I wonder how many people go to harvard and say "Ok im in. Now ill just coast by and when I graduate, even if im at or under the median, ill get a biglaw job".

I understand that the people that go to harvard are very talented and had good grades in UG and a good LSAT score, but you havent earned your stripes. I liken it to the NFL rookies that are drafted in the top 3 and get huge, ridiculous contracts even though they never played a down in the NFL. Yea they showed talent in college, but its what they do in the NFL that matters.

Point is that law seems to be very elitist focused. Those at the top reap all the benefits. Oh well, its the way of the world.


Your last sentence just about sums it all up. If you haven't figured it out by now, you'll learn it soon. Your best bet, if you aren't in the elite, is to make good friends with them.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:57 pm

Getting a 170 on the LSAT doesnt mean youre going to be a great attorney. It doesnt even mean youre gonna be a good law student. All it means is that you did well on the LSAT.

I would believe that someone would hire the #2 person at brooklyn over the person in the top 25% at Harvard because the person at BK showed their worth by working hard enough to be the #2 person in their class. They showed dedication, commitment and promise. While 25% at Harvard is very impressive, being second overall in your class, no matter where, is also impressive.

Its just my opinion. Im under the belief that hard work should be rewarded, not just where you came from.

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redsox
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby redsox » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:59 pm

gdane5 wrote:Its just my opinion. Im under the belief that hard work should be rewarded, not just where you came from.


Are you insane? Firms and government agencies don't hire people to "reward" them, they hire them to make money and do work.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:01 pm

Well what I meant is that if a firm wants someone thats going to work hard and make money, then they should go with the person that graduated close to the very top of his/her class over the person from a t14 that graduated at median.

Kretzy
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby Kretzy » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:02 pm

gdane5 wrote:Getting a 170 on the LSAT doesnt mean youre going to be a great attorney. It doesnt even mean youre gonna be a good law student. All it means is that you did well on the LSAT.

I would believe that someone would hire the #2 person at brooklyn over the person in the top 25% at Harvard because the person at BK showed their worth by working hard enough to be the #2 person in their class. They showed dedication, commitment and promise. While 25% at Harvard is very impressive, being second overall in your class, no matter where, is also impressive.

Its just my opinion. Im under the belief that hard work should be rewarded, not just where you came from.


You suffer from the faulty assumption that you're criticizing. Being a good (or even great) law student does not necessarily mean you'll be a good practicing attorney, just as getting into HLS doesn't mean you'll do well there (or after).

Firms, the government, etc. play their odds. Overall, HLS produces better attorneys and legal minds than BLS (to use your examples).

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underdawg
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:03 pm

if two students are equally intelligent, for all we know, it takes just as much work, if not more, to be top 25% at HLS than #2 at BK Law. How the hell would we even know? What a dumb assumption.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:08 pm

Well, in three years lets come on here and discuss this again.

If I havent been murdered, Ill go for a DOJ position and see what happens. Maybe someone will tell me "You didnt go to Georgetown or Harvard? Sorry we dont want you even if you are top 10 in your class" or maybe someone will say "You did very well. Even though you didnt go to so and so school, youve proven yourself to be a very hard worker and youre very good looking so, youre hired!". Haha. Ok that final part might not happen. If it wer to happen I hope a woman is interviewing me. HAHAA.

swester
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby swester » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:09 pm

underdawg wrote:if two students are equally intelligent, for all we know, it takes just as much work, if not more, to be top 25% at HLS than #2 at BK Law. How the hell would we even know? What a dumb assumption.


Your competition at HLS will likely be intensely more difficult than at BK. So, no, it isn't a dumb assumption.

And the gov't doesn't just want a "hard worker". They want a mentally capable, intelligent hard worker - and there is a higher guarantee of getting that result from the Top-14. Are there exceptions? Certainly. But they are called exceptions for a reason.

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gdane
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:15 pm

The truth is that the government hires people from all walks of life. I feel confident that if I work hard, network effectively and stay positive, I can land a good government job.


http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


The link is a list of the schools that people who were in hired in 2008-9 attended. The list is 2 years old, but still telling of how its not always "t14 only".

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underdawg
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:16 pm

i meant that the assumption that bk#2 is a harder worker than hls 25% is dumb. obviously everyone's assumptions in this thread have to do with what horse they have in this race

also, people realize that the "qualifications" don't really say much except that it probably is a waste if you don't meet any of them, right? think of how many freaking people meet that requirement, and while many of those people are working in biglaw, federal government (with its decent pay and hours) is a pretty attractive job for many

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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby underdawg » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:18 pm

gdane5 wrote:The truth is that the government hires people from all walks of life. I feel confident that if I work hard, network effectively and stay positive, I can land a good government job.


http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


The link is a list of the schools that people who were in hired in 2008-9 attended. The list is 2 years old, but still telling of how its not always "t14 only".

without #'s from each school, that doesn't really say much. unless you're #1 at your school...

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RVP11
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:25 pm

gdane5 wrote:Well, in three years lets come on here and discuss this again.

If I havent been murdered, Ill go for a DOJ position and see what happens. Maybe someone will tell me "You didnt go to Georgetown or Harvard? Sorry we dont want you even if you are top 10 in your class" or maybe someone will say "You did very well. Even though you didnt go to so and so school, youve proven yourself to be a very hard worker and youre very good looking so, youre hired!". Haha. Ok that final part might not happen. If it wer to happen I hope a woman is interviewing me. HAHAA.


Based on the quality of your posts, you're in no danger of being in the top 10 of your class.

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RVP11
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:30 pm

truthypants wrote:here is an example :

To qualify for the position, an applicant must be at the time of hire a law school graduate (J.D. or LL.B.) who possesses superior legal writing skills and meets one of the following criteria:

-Academic standing in the top one-third of his/her law school graduating class;
-Law review;
-Special honors for academic excellence in law school;
-Winning of a moot court competition or membership on the moot court team;
-Full-time or continuous participation in a legal aid program; or
-Significant summer law clerk experience.


That position is with the Department of Labor (i.e., typical, standard federal agency). Also, that is their cutoff for a lower tier 1 school. Obviously, if you want an uber-prestigious agency (e.g. USAO or something), the standards will be higher. Not sure about grade cutoffs for t-14, but again, this is the standard coming from a lower tier 1. hth


What part of this is a "cutoff?"

Employers post stuff like this all the time. Go hunt through some NALP pages. Firms will say stuff like "top 10-15% of class" as a requirement. But someone could probably be WAY below that if they're coming from Columbia, but would have absolutely no chance of getting hired from Cooley even if #1 in the class.

swester
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby swester » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:31 pm

gdane5 wrote:The truth is that the government hires people from all walks of life. I feel confident that if I work hard, network effectively and stay positive, I can land a good government job.


http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/lawschools.htm


The link is a list of the schools that people who were in hired in 2008-9 attended. The list is 2 years old, but still telling of how its not always "t14 only".


Let me be the first to say (3 years early): I'm so sorry about your rejections.

Just think, you could prepare yourself now and avoid the element of surprise.

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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby 270910 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:42 pm

RVP11 wrote:What part of this is a "cutoff?"

Employers post stuff like this all the time. Go hunt through some NALP pages. Firms will say stuff like "top 10-15% of class" as a requirement. But someone could probably be WAY below that if they're coming from Columbia, but would have absolutely no chance of getting hired from Cooley even if #1 in the class.


TITCR. Firms (and the govt.) puff and try to give general guidelines, but it's ALL a sliding scale. The biggest slider is 'school you attend', but there are others - language skills, diversity contributed, relevant background, etc. can all come into play.

At the end of the day, all legal employers that hire nationally want and compete for students from the same 14-20ish schools. You don't need to argue the merits of that mentality to recognize that it exists.

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SteelReserve
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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby SteelReserve » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:50 pm

Getting a 170 on the LSAT doesnt mean youre going to be a great attorney. It doesnt even mean youre gonna be a good law student. All it means is that you did well on the LSAT.

I would believe that someone would hire the #2 person at brooklyn over the person in the top 25% at Harvard because the person at BK showed their worth by working hard enough to be the #2 person in their class. They showed dedication, commitment and promise. While 25% at Harvard is very impressive, being second overall in your class, no matter where, is also impressive.

Its just my opinion. Im under the belief that hard work should be rewarded, not just where you came from.


My man, I think everyone here agrees with that, and your opinion is absolutely fine, but it certainly has nothing to do with legal hiring and is no way accurate in terms of legal hiring. As a non-t14er myself, I completely agree that non-t14ers are perfectly capable of being great lawyers, but that does not matter one bit if you can't get that first job. And t14s maximize your chance of getting that first job. A school like Brooklyn guarantees you will be able to sit for the bar, but absolutely nothing else, and certainly gives you a minimal shot if any of getting into the Feds.

If your goal is Feds, get an internship for your 1L and 2L summer. If you don't or haven't done that, you're probably not breaking in, end of story.

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Re: for those wondering what the grade cutoffs for fed. govt.,

Postby fortissimo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:36 pm

nice




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