Summer 2011 outook Forum

[normn3116]

Hey everyone, long time reader, first time poster.

I am a little confused here. Depending on which camp I talk to, there are people who are optimistic about the summer 2L job outlook for 2011 (compared to summer 2010), and others who think it will be as bad (if not worse) than this year. Does anybody have any inclination one way or another?

Making this question more specific to me, I am currently above median at Illinois Urbana-Champaign, have locked up an externship for this summer (get to sit in on the Drew Peterson trial, pretty pumped), and am the first person in my family or circle of friends' respective histories to go through law school. I would just like to know what I can reasonably expect for this upcoming OCI and summer 2011 cycle. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[BradyToMoss]

I'm not sure to whom you're speaking, but there is a general consensus on these boards about summer 2011. The thought is that it will be slightly better than this past year, but still WAY fewer SA spots than there were in Summer '08 or even Summer '09.

[Renzo]

I'm not sure to whom you're speaking, but there is a general consensus on these boards about summer 2011. The thought is that it will be slightly better than this past year, but still WAY fewer SA spots than there were in Summer '08 or even Summer '09.

I would generally agree. Best thing to plan on is that hiring is identical to this year.

[rando]

I'm not sure to whom you're speaking, but there is a general consensus on these boards about summer 2011. The thought is that it will be slightly better than this past year, but still WAY fewer SA spots than there were in Summer '08 or even Summer '09.

I would generally agree. Best thing to plan on is that hiring is identical to this year.

Agreed. No need to really plan on anything because you'll do your best and see where it gets you in the job hunt. But I have heard nothing to make me think it will be worse.

[normn3116]

I was speaking to the general public/consensus on this one. Ideally, big law would be nice (for the sake of paying the loans off), but I would be a happy camper with mid law too, seeing as I've grown up in the Chicago area and know the Metra like the back of my hand (allows me to live in the suburbs, where cost of living is much lower than the city). Does anyone think that I am being too lofty with mid law? I know the big law odds are slim, which is why it would be the ideal. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate it.

[underdawg]

with a bunch of firms doing salary thaws and whatnot, i'd wager that 2011 summer hiring will be better than 2010. but prob not by a lot. i'd guess that offer rates for both 2010 and 2011 will be higher than 2009 though. but these are just guesses on my part.

[Renzo]

with a bunch of firms doing salary thaws and whatnot, i'd wager that 2011 summer hiring will be better than 2010. but prob not by a lot. i'd guess that offer rates for both 2010 and 2011 will be higher than 2009 though. but these are just guesses on my part.

There are counter-examples that tend to indicate some firms aren't completely sure the economy is recovering, but in general I agree. I think slightly better than this year is a good guess, but not a lot better.

[XxSpyKEx]

Hey everyone, long time reader, first time poster.

I am a little confused here. Depending on which camp I talk to, there are people who are optimistic about the summer 2L job outlook for 2011 (compared to summer 2010), and others who think it will be as bad (if not worse) than this year. Does anybody have any inclination one way or another?

Making this question more specific to me, I am currently above median at Illinois Urbana-Champaign, have locked up an externship for this summer (get to sit in on the Drew Peterson trial, pretty pumped), and am the first person in my family or circle of friends' respective histories to go through law school. I would just like to know what I can reasonably expect for this upcoming OCI and summer 2011 cycle. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Cleaning urinals with your tongue as a volunteer janitor at some high school?

I posted this on another thread, but here's last year's Chicago biglaw hiring:

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

[RVP11]

Cleaning urinals with your tongue as a volunteer janitor at some high school?

I posted this on another thread, but here's last year's Chicago biglaw hiring:

Thanks for breaking it to OP.

[270910]

I was speaking to the general public/consensus on this one. Ideally, big law would be nice (for the sake of paying the loans off), but I would be a happy camper with mid law too, seeing as I've grown up in the Chicago area and know the Metra like the back of my hand (allows me to live in the suburbs, where cost of living is much lower than the city). Does anyone think that I am being too lofty with mid law? I know the big law odds are slim, which is why it would be the ideal. Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate it.

Mid law doesn't exist. I mean, it does, but there are fewer firms that hire fewer people. It's not "oh shucks I missed biglaw, guess I have to settle for 40 hour work weeks and a $90,000 salary."

If you hustle and get a midlaw job (which will be hard) it'll be long hours and maybe 60-100K starting salary. Hooray! But those jobs are extremely competitive too. Don't give up, but don't imagine that while biglaw would be nice you will 'settle' for midlaw, because you'll need to be smart and lucky to get that too.

[normn3116]

Thanks for the insight with regard to how midlaw works. I perhaps should have reread my second post to make it sound less like i would "settle" for midlaw. I am also well aware that midlaw is not 40 hours, 90 grand. My impression was that it is perhaps more work than big law, because outside of the 60 or so hours spent per week in the office, you spend additional time outside the office trying to bring more business to the firm.

XxSpyKEx--thanks for the Chicago data for the past 3 summers...yikes. However, I do take exception to "Cleaning urinals with your tongue as a volunteer janitor at some high school?"...I would never clean those with anything less than a toothbrush

In all seriousness though, I posted this to get an idea of what someone with my credentials would be expecting to land for summer 2010 and beyond, so I can prepare accordingly.

[bigben]

XxSpyKEx:

Thank you for that.

[Anonymous User]

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

The 256 number doesn’t seem too bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

Chicago is not just for Chicagoland schools...especially as the DC and CA markets dried up, people moved inland, particularly to places where they had previous ties. Plus, some people from T14 schools would just prefer to be in the Midwest anyway. For example, four of those nine at Skadden are from Yale.

[Anonymous User]

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

[270910]

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

If you're median at Chicago, you should be fighting for your life to get any big firm job anywhere ITE.

[RVP11]

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

If you're median at Chicago, you should be fighting for your life to get any big firm job anywhere ITE.

I thought something like 70% of current Chicago 2Ls found V100 work this summer.

[XxSpyKEx]

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

The 256 number doesn’t seem too bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

Chicago is not just for Chicagoland schools...especially as the DC and CA markets dried up, people moved inland, particularly to places where they had previous ties. Plus, some people from T14 schools would just prefer to be in the Midwest anyway. For example, four of those nine at Skadden are from Yale.

Wow, so it's even worse . I wonder what type of applications numbers some of these offices had. I can imagine Skadden Chicago being close to a 1000 or more applications for those 9 spots.

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

Just imagine if the economy somehow plummets again and that trend continues on to next year. That would drop the number of Chicago summer associateships to 112 (it literally dropped 56% /year from 2008 to 2009 and 2009 to 2010). I don't think that's going to happen... but then again, who knows, cutting out 70% of the SA spots that were available in 2 years ago would have been something unimaginable a couple years ago as well.

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

If you're median at Chicago, you should be fighting for your life to get any big firm job anywhere ITE.

I thought something like 70% of current Chicago 2Ls found V100 work this summer.

I somehow doubt this.

[270910]

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

If you're median at Chicago, you should be fighting for your life to get any big firm job anywhere ITE.

I thought something like 70% of current Chicago 2Ls found V100 work this summer.

[kings84_wr]

Basically all the Chicago Big law Firms cancelled IU OCI last year. I would imagine its not too much better at UIUC

[Anonymous User]

I was told by my CCN career services that there was a 70% reduction in 2L hiring for SA's. I have heard anecdotal evidence from friends with jobs (me not so much). Cleary is like 50 something, Kirkland NY has 13, A&P NY has 10, I saw on above the law that Cravath has 22 and Skadden is liek 30 something. The attrition rate which fules the big summer classes and first year classes is non-existent. I think this is the theory behind the deferrals (to buy time for people to leave).

[XxSpyKEx]

Basically all the Chicago Big law Firms cancelled IU OCI last year. I would imagine its not too much better at UIUC

I'd imagine UIUC had virtually no firms come to its OCI if all the Chicago biglaw firms canceled being that's really the only market UIUC has (besides the small number of people that go to other cities)... I don't know exactly, but there were only around 35 some firms actually doing OCI altogether from Chicago (after you figure out all the firms that pulled out last minute) so it had to be pretty brutal at UIUC if not all of those 35 did OCI there.

I was told by my CCN career services that there was a 70% reduction in 2L hiring for SA's. I have heard anecdotal evidence from friends with jobs (me not so much). Cleary is like 50 something, Kirkland NY has 13, A&P NY has 10, I saw on above the law that Cravath has 22 and Skadden is liek 30 something. The attrition rate which fules the big summer classes and first year classes is non-existent. I think this is the theory behind the deferrals (to buy time for people to leave).

hmm.. If that's true then that means that other cities has the same reduction in 2L SA classes as Chicago (Chicago was right around 70% from 2008).

EDIT- I'm looking at some of the NY numbers now, and wow. That's brutal. A lot of these are just as bad, if not worse than Chicago. See, e.g., Skadden, W&C, or Baker & McKenzie.

[jay115]

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

The 256 number doesn’t seem too bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

Chicago is not just for Chicagoland schools...especially as the DC and CA markets dried up, people moved inland, particularly to places where they had previous ties. Plus, some people from T14 schools would just prefer to be in the Midwest anyway. For example, four of those nine at Skadden are from Yale.

Wow, so it's even worse . I wonder what type of applications numbers some of these offices had. I can imagine Skadden Chicago being close to a 1000 or more applications for those 9 spots.

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

Just imagine if the economy somehow plummets again and that trend continues on to next year. That would drop the number of Chicago summer associateships to 112 (it literally dropped 56% /year from 2008 to 2009 and 2009 to 2010). I don't think that's going to happen... but then again, who knows, cutting out 70% of the SA spots that were available in 2 years ago would have been something unimaginable a couple years ago as well.

wow those numbers suck.

if I'm at median at U of C, can I expect to get one of those 250 spots, or should I be looking at other markets too?

If you're median at Chicago, you should be fighting for your life to get any big firm job anywhere ITE.

I thought something like 70% of current Chicago 2Ls found V100 work this summer.

I somehow doubt this.

does anyone have numbers either way to confirm/reject this assertion?

[RVP11]

Pretty sure I remember a Chicago student posting a 72% number. Would love it if a Chicago student could confirm/deny.

[Renzo]

Pretty sure I remember a Chicago student posting a 72% number. Would love it if a Chicago student could confirm/deny.

72% in private firms is believable. 72% in V100 is not.

[bigben]

The latest NLJ250 stats on Chicago are like 50% right? And that was before the down turn.

If NLJ250 is 50%, then V100 is something significantly less, like 40% at the most.

So if you had 30-40% in V100 in the good economy, you have something significantly less than that now.