How likely is finding employment if...

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NUMB3RFIFTY
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How likely is finding employment if...

Postby NUMB3RFIFTY » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:14 pm

If you graduate under the following circumstances...

(Lets say a school ranked 90-100 in the country)

If you graduate?
If you graduate top 20%
If you graduate top 5%
If you graduate top 1,2 or 3?

MacLaurin
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby MacLaurin » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:27 pm

Probably depends on what region of the country this school is in, how good the alumni network is, and what area of law you're looking to practice. I would assume that, beyond your GPA, the connections you make and what you're involved in has some bearing on this as well

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:54 pm

NUMB3RFIFTY wrote:If you graduate under the following circumstances...

(Lets say a school ranked 90-100 in the country)

If you graduate?
If you graduate top 20%
If you graduate top 5%
If you graduate top 1,2 or 3?


How likely will you find a job?

Very likely to all of the above.

It depends on what it is that you are trying to do for your first job.

People 0L's and 1L's are too pessimistic.

The vast majority of people who enter law school are from the upper middle class. Being so, most people know someone/have a family member that knows someone who can get them a job if they cannot do so themselves.

Hell I didn't do super hot my first semester but I have a legal in-house first summer job (without the need to tap into family connections).

Don't let what people tell you on this board second guess yourself in any way/shape/form beyond how much debt you are taking on to attend law school balanced with what school you are looking at attending.

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TTT-LS
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby TTT-LS » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:07 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:41 pm

[insert double-facepalm picture]

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gdane
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:47 am

What Aberzombie says is true. Too many people on here spread false rumors based off of anecdotal evidence. The whole "if you arent top 10% at a t14 you wont get a job" schtick is annoying.

To the OP, you can get a job in all of those scenarios. The concern is the quality of those jobs. Will you get a decent job that pays you $60,000 a year or will you get a crappy job that pays you $35 or $40,000 a year? It is what you make of it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:49 am

gdane5 wrote:To the OP, you can get a job in all of those scenarios. The concern is the quality of those jobs. Will you get a decent job that pays you $60,000 a year or will you get a crappy job that pays you $35 or $40,000 a year? It is what you make of it.

I don't think anyone contests that you can get a job after graduating from any law school. The issue is whether you can get a job that is sufficient to pay off debts/justify the time and expense of attending. You can always go get a job at Taco Bell after you graduate, and that counts as "a job", but it's not what people on this board tend to focus on.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:42 am

vanwinkle wrote:
gdane5 wrote:To the OP, you can get a job in all of those scenarios. The concern is the quality of those jobs. Will you get a decent job that pays you $60,000 a year or will you get a crappy job that pays you $35 or $40,000 a year? It is what you make of it.

I don't think anyone contests that you can get a job after graduating from any law school. The issue is whether you can get a job that is sufficient to pay off debts/justify the time and expense of attending. You can always go get a job at Taco Bell after you graduate, and that counts as "a job", but it's not what people on this board tend to focus on.


+1. Good luck repaying $150-200K in student debt with a job that pays $35-40K /year (or even $60K /year).

blsingindisguise
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:47 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
NUMB3RFIFTY wrote:If you graduate under the following circumstances...

People 0L's and 1L's are too pessimistic.
...
Hell I didn't do super hot my first semester but I have a legal in-house first summer job (without the need to tap into family connections).


LOL

A first summer "job" is NOT EMPLOYMENT.

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RayFinkle
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby RayFinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:20 am

Step 1 to securing a solid job after law school: do not have a picture of Jamarcus Russelll as your avatar.

As many people have noted and scientists have proven, people tend to become their avatar. There are often no signing bonuses in the legal field.

(At least I have an AFC championship ring)

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gdane
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:48 am

Everyone needs to remember that not every law student will graduate with $150k of debt. Some with far less, some with more unfortunately. So if someone graduates with $50k of debt, but they take a $40,000 a year DA job, thats not bad at all. Sure, $40,000 is nothing compared to what other people make in the legal field, but there is always room for advancement (you wont stay at $40k forever).

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:34 pm

gdane5 wrote:Everyone needs to remember that not every law student will graduate with $150k of debt. Some with far less, some with more unfortunately. So if someone graduates with $50k of debt, but they take a $40,000 a year DA job, thats not bad at all. Sure, $40,000 is nothing compared to what other people make in the legal field, but there is always room for advancement (you wont stay at $40k forever).


Yeah, that's not bad at all. Unfortunately, the pool of law school grads that actually make it out with only $50K in debt has to pretty small (I mean the cost of living, health insurance, books, etc runs around $15K /year for 3 years, meaning you would need to be on a full tuition scholarship, or close to it, to make it out with $50K in total student debt).

digitalcntrl
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby digitalcntrl » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:18 pm

gdane5 wrote:Everyone needs to remember that not every law student will graduate with $150k of debt. Some with far less, some with more unfortunately. So if someone graduates with $50k of debt, but they take a $40,000 a year DA job, thats not bad at all. Sure, $40,000 is nothing compared to what other people make in the legal field, but there is always room for advancement (you wont stay at $40k forever).


Except that that same person would have equally as likely made the same amount having never gone to law school. 40K a year is nothing, heck secretaries at many law firms make more than that. Not to mention the sap has plunked down anywhere from 100-200K (as debt or wasted money).

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TTT-LS
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:37 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dan55v
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby dan55v » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:44 pm

I don't know, but having JaMarcus Russell as your avatar can only hurt

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gdane
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:09 pm

Again, everyone needs to stop assuming that the attorney that made $40k out of law school is still going to be earning that little in 10 or 15 years. It is very likely that that number is going to rise? Will said attorney make $160k/yr? Most likely not, but a salary in the $65k-75k/yr is very likely.

Also, the opportunity cost might be better if you dont go to a lower end law school and stay at a job or find a job where you would be making the same amount that you'd be making if you went to the lower end school, but sometimes its not about money. Its really not.

People have to stop thinking that the only reason people want to become attorney's is to make a lot of money. Many do, but some just want to help people. Ive worked at a job I hate in which I was paid well in. I would have traded it in for a chance to do something that I would like.

I know someone going to a "lower end" law school that will probably graduate with no more than $50k in debt. Probably much less. She has a half tuition scholarship which leaves here with a roughly $4500/yr bill to pick up. She lives at home and doesnt have too many expenses. She wants to be a prosecuter and if that will pay her $40k/yr, she'll be happy because she's doing something she wants.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:31 pm

gdane5 wrote:Again, everyone needs to stop assuming that the attorney that made $40k out of law school is still going to be earning that little in 10 or 15 years. It is very likely that that number is going to rise? Will said attorney make $160k/yr? Most likely not, but a salary in the $65k-75k/yr is very likely.

Also, the opportunity cost might be better if you dont go to a lower end law school and stay at a job or find a job where you would be making the same amount that you'd be making if you went to the lower end school, but sometimes its not about money. Its really not.

People have to stop thinking that the only reason people want to become attorney's is to make a lot of money. Many do, but some just want to help people. Ive worked at a job I hate in which I was paid well in. I would have traded it in for a chance to do something that I would like.

I know someone going to a "lower end" law school that will probably graduate with no more than $50k in debt. Probably much less. She has a half tuition scholarship which leaves here with a roughly $4500/yr bill to pick up. She lives at home and doesnt have too many expenses. She wants to be a prosecuter and if that will pay her $40k/yr, she'll be happy because she's doing something she wants.


Having a career plan that involves "living at home" after having graduated law school is kind of sad.

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vanwinkle
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:32 pm

gdane5 wrote:Again, everyone needs to stop assuming that the attorney that made $40k out of law school is still going to be earning that little in 10 or 15 years. It is very likely that that number is going to rise? Will said attorney make $160k/yr? Most likely not, but a salary in the $65k-75k/yr is very likely.

1) Can you justify this alternate assumption?

2) Does making $65K/year after 10 years still warrant going $160K in debt?

bigben
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby bigben » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:33 pm

lol.

bigben
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby bigben » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:44 pm

gdane5 wrote:Again, everyone needs to stop assuming that the attorney that made $40k out of law school is still going to be earning that little in 10 or 15 years. It is very likely that that number is going to rise? Will said attorney make $160k/yr? Most likely not, but a salary in the $65k-75k/yr is very likely.

Also, the opportunity cost might be better if you dont go to a lower end law school and stay at a job or find a job where you would be making the same amount that you'd be making if you went to the lower end school, but sometimes its not about money. Its really not.

People have to stop thinking that the only reason people want to become attorney's is to make a lot of money. Many do, but some just want to help people. Ive worked at a job I hate in which I was paid well in. I would have traded it in for a chance to do something that I would like.

I know someone going to a "lower end" law school that will probably graduate with no more than $50k in debt. Probably much less. She has a half tuition scholarship which leaves here with a roughly $4500/yr bill to pick up. She lives at home and doesnt have too many expenses. She wants to be a prosecuter and if that will pay her $40k/yr, she'll be happy because she's doing something she wants.



Dude stop. Just admit it, you know absolutely nothing about the legal profession, you are making all of this up, and you want to go to law school because you have a vague unsupported notion that it will be prestigious and interesting and rewarding.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm

gdane5 wrote:Again, everyone needs to stop assuming that the attorney that made $40k out of law school is still going to be earning that little in 10 or 15 years. It is very likely that that number is going to rise? Will said attorney make $160k/yr? Most likely not, but a salary in the $65k-75k/yr is very likely.

Also, the opportunity cost might be better if you dont go to a lower end law school and stay at a job or find a job where you would be making the same amount that you'd be making if you went to the lower end school, but sometimes its not about money. Its really not.

People have to stop thinking that the only reason people want to become attorney's is to make a lot of money. Many do, but some just want to help people. Ive worked at a job I hate in which I was paid well in. I would have traded it in for a chance to do something that I would like.

I know someone going to a "lower end" law school that will probably graduate with no more than $50k in debt. Probably much less. She has a half tuition scholarship which leaves here with a roughly $4500/yr bill to pick up. She lives at home and doesnt have too many expenses. She wants to be a prosecuter and if that will pay her $40k/yr, she'll be happy because she's doing something she wants.


Gdane man, the problem is, even if you ARE right, you're arguing for an admittedly small portion of law/prelaw students that come onto these boards. Your advice (and situations) are in the minority, not the majority. Most ppl's advice on here is either 1) tailored to the specific person asking it or 2) a blanket generalization that is true for most in x position

Does your circumstance come up? Sure, but even you said many are not in that situation so...

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gdane
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:47 pm

I apologize. You're all correct. Im just an optimistic person. Im not one of the people thats going to go $160k in debt at a lower end school. I just think its unfair to tell people "You will fail at everything. Dont even try unless you're going to a T14".

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TTT-LS
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby TTT-LS » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:57 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gdane
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby gdane » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:11 pm

It just comes off that way from a lot of people.

I also believe that a a tier 3 or 4 can be a good investment if you have a full ride or close to it. However, I think its a horrible investment to pay sticker at one of these schools.

Im just gonna let this simmer down.

digitalcntrl
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Re: How likely is finding employment if...

Postby digitalcntrl » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
gdane5 wrote:I just think its unfair to tell people "You will fail at everything. Dont even try unless you're going to a T14".

But nobody is saying this. That quoted argument is a ridiculous straw man.

In truth, I don't think folks on TLS--at least informed folks--ever argue that lower-ranked schools aren't worth it. A second or third tier school can be a great investment if you have a full ride or something close to it (assuming no GPA reqs are attached to the $). If you can get 0% loans from your family, then that'd expand options too. And of course non-T14 schools like UT, Vandy, UCLA, and Fordham are often well worth the expense for many--though not all--students. It all comes down to being realistic about what you want and what's possible. And what we've been saying is that your posts, gdane, haven't been realistic.


Even with a full ride that does not include the opportunity cost of spending 3 years of your life working your butt off...




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