NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

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Kobe_Teeth
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NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:38 am

OL here and found this interesting. I wonder what this will mean for next summer or even the summer after that. From what I gather, given that we are still ITE, either firms are going to dig deep or less people are going to go to OCI with "something legal" during their 2L.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/busin ... ntern.html

erniesto
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:50 am

Yeah. It takes a lot to pay your office [strike]bitch[/strike] labor minimum wage. We're boned.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:00 pm

It actually sorta does. And i've been convinced for some time now that employers have been using the unpaid internship to get cheap labor as opposed to actually helping a young soon-to-be-graduate with any sort of special job skills.

Companies (probably law firms as well) are always bitching and moaning about graduates who aren't ready to do the work out of college. Because of this, everyone looked the other way when "unpaid labor/internships" became the big thing. Now, that its become more than evident that companies are less than willing to actually teach a kid something, the labor department has to crack down.

Actually, I think this is kinda funny. And if practically no one can find an internship next year, so be it, we'd all be in the same boat!

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:04 pm

To be honest, this is ridiculous. The result is going to be that no one can find internships, not that employers will suddenly start paying their interns.

A better solution would be internship contracts, specifying the duties of the intern and the employer. School CSOs could examine these Ks before they would list the internship.

I'm sure it would result in fewer internships being available--but it certainly is better than chilling essentially all internships in the for-profit sector.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:08 pm

Good call. And I definitely agree...internships are going to become real scarce real fast if this trend continues (or if the gov. doesn't subsidize internships).

Renzo
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:14 pm

This isn't really new. The only way a for-profit co. can have a volunteer or unpaid intern is if that person contributes zero value and is only there for their own personal education. So it's OK to have an unpaid intern shadow a lawyer and ask question, but not make copies or run errands. This has always been the law, and it has always been ignored.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Renzo wrote:This isn't really new. The only way a for-profit co. can have a volunteer or unpaid intern is if that person contributes zero value and is only there for their own personal education. So it's OK to have an unpaid intern shadow a lawyer and ask question, but not make copies or run errands. This has always been the law, and it has always been ignored.


And it should continue to be ignored by regulatory agencies, or the law should be changed. Getting a resume line + having to work a paying job on the side (God forbid) > not being able to get a resume line at all.

LawSchoolWannaBe
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby LawSchoolWannaBe » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:33 pm

Working for free to get work experience on the resume? Must be non-engineers!

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ggocat
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby ggocat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:47 pm

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship during law school with a for-profit company (business or law firm)? I did not think this was very common. Most people I know working for firms (even solos) get paid.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:54 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Renzo wrote:This isn't really new. The only way a for-profit co. can have a volunteer or unpaid intern is if that person contributes zero value and is only there for their own personal education. So it's OK to have an unpaid intern shadow a lawyer and ask question, but not make copies or run errands. This has always been the law, and it has always been ignored.


And it should continue to be ignored by regulatory agencies, or the law should be changed. Getting a resume line + having to work a paying job on the side (God forbid) > not being able to get a resume line at all.


I disagree. Because of this internships are about as valuable a resume line as a degree from a TTTT. They don't mean anything anymore. Maybe its different in the legal market (0L distinction already made) but I know that's the direction things are headed in for the overall for-profit market. If most companies aren't using their unpaid internships properly then most companies know how worthless they are.

Also, if few get internships then most will not have them. Things will even out (in theory).

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:13 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:I disagree. Because of this internships are about as valuable a resume line as a degree from a TTTT.

Et tu, Brute? :(

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:29 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Kobe_Teeth wrote:I disagree. Because of this internships are about as valuable a resume line as a degree from a TTTT.

Et tu, Brute? :(


As a future T2'er I have to have somebody to shit on. Notice that I left the T3's unharmed. :wink:

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:07 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Kobe_Teeth wrote:I disagree. Because of this internships are about as valuable a resume line as a degree from a TTTT.

Et tu, Brute? :(


As a future T2'er I have to have somebody to shit on. Notice that I left the T3's unharmed. :wink:

:lol: Now I know where to focus my energies!

erniesto
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:12 pm

You have seen the grossly increased profit margins for partners in these firms, correct? There is money to pay these small numbers of interns.

Many unpaid officemonkeyships are pure exploitation. Welcome to Obamacare, the result of three decades of workers getting anally raped.

tycho_brahe
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby tycho_brahe » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:17 pm

This is incredibly common in the creative industries, and it's a big barrier to entering those industries to those without the financial support of their parents. Since most of these industries are centered in New York, getting a job on the side, as a previous poster suggested, isn't going to cover your cost of living.

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taw856
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby taw856 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:20 pm

For any journalism outlet to raise an alarm about unpaid work is for the pot to call the kettle black.

erniesto
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:21 pm

taw856 wrote:For any journalism outlet to raise an alarm about unpaid work is for the pot to call the kettle black.


:lol: True.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:42 pm

tycho_brahe wrote:This is incredibly common in the creative industries, and it's a big barrier to entering those industries to those without the financial support of their parents. Since most of these industries are centered in New York, getting a job on the side, as a previous poster suggested, isn't going to cover your cost of living.


Then dont get it on the side, work full-time at night and do the internship during the day. Get roommates. Fucking buck up. Again, enforcement here isn't going to make the creative industries suddenly pay their interns--it is going to make the creative industries stop taking interns.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:47 pm

erniesto wrote:You have seen the grossly increased profit margins for partners in these firms, correct? There is money to pay these small numbers of interns.

Many unpaid officemonkeyships are pure exploitation. Welcome to Obamacare, the result of three decades of workers getting anally raped.



What does the health care bill have to due with unpaid internships. I'm not seeing the connection. Any connections I do see arose way before we even knew Obama's name.

You're going to need to clarify that.

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rayiner
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby rayiner » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:49 pm

LawSchoolWannaBe wrote:Working for free to get work experience on the resume? Must be non-engineers!


+1.

Even HS level interns at my old company got paid.

erniesto
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:51 pm

Obamacare will soon be the moniker for the pro-labor shift which health care reform was only a part of. You will see!!
Last edited by erniesto on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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taw856
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby taw856 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:51 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:What does the health care bill have to due with unpaid internships. ... You're going to need to clarify that.


Isn't it obvious?

--ImageRemoved--

erniesto
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:53 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
tycho_brahe wrote:This is incredibly common in the creative industries, and it's a big barrier to entering those industries to those without the financial support of their parents. Since most of these industries are centered in New York, getting a job on the side, as a previous poster suggested, isn't going to cover your cost of living.


Then dont get it on the side, work full-time at night and do the internship during the day. Get roommates. Fucking buck up. Again, enforcement here isn't going to make the creative industries suddenly pay their interns--it is going to make the creative industries stop taking interns.


Defeatist mentality anyone? Out of curiousity, do freshly minted grads in places such as England, France or Sweeden have to work two jobs, one unpaid, to get anywhere in their careers?

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby KibblesAndVick » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:55 pm

erniesto wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
tycho_brahe wrote:This is incredibly common in the creative industries, and it's a big barrier to entering those industries to those without the financial support of their parents. Since most of these industries are centered in New York, getting a job on the side, as a previous poster suggested, isn't going to cover your cost of living.


Then dont get it on the side, work full-time at night and do the internship during the day. Get roommates. Fucking buck up. Again, enforcement here isn't going to make the creative industries suddenly pay their interns--it is going to make the creative industries stop taking interns.


Defeatist mentality anyone? Out of curiousity, do freshly minted grads in places such as England, France or Sweeden have to work two jobs, one unpaid, to get anywhere in their careers?


You weren't an econ major by any chance, were you?
/edit: I was not an English major :D/

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: NYT Illegal Un-Paid Internships Article

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:51 pm

erniesto wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
tycho_brahe wrote:This is incredibly common in the creative industries, and it's a big barrier to entering those industries to those without the financial support of their parents. Since most of these industries are centered in New York, getting a job on the side, as a previous poster suggested, isn't going to cover your cost of living.


Then dont get it on the side, work full-time at night and do the internship during the day. Get roommates. Fucking buck up. Again, enforcement here isn't going to make the creative industries suddenly pay their interns--it is going to make the creative industries stop taking interns.


[strike]Defeatist[/strike]Realistic mentality anyone? [strike]Out of curiousity, do freshly minted grads in places such as England, France or Sweeden have to work two jobs, one unpaid, to get anywhere in their careers?[/strike]


Seriously. We have 9.5% unemployment. It's an employer's market. What are you going to do, pass a law requiring employers to take X number of interns every year and pay them? That's the only way you're going to get a lot of these companies to pay people to be interns.

As it stands now, people have a choice: they can work for free and get the resume line, or they can not work for free and not get the resume line. All enforcement is going to do is take the first option away. I'm sure there are plenty of people who wish that Biglaw firms weren't bound by this inability to take unpaid interns--working an unpaid biglaw internship for the summer would be much more likely to lead to employment than working a $10/hour RA job. Which path to take should be up to the individual (and the employers), not some jackass regulator.

Also, we're not Europe. You may have noticed that.




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