Salaries in Academia

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chitown825
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Salaries in Academia

Postby chitown825 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:43 pm

Anybody have an idea what a law professor makes at the beginning, middle of his or her career? No abstract guesses, please.

270910
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby 270910 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:57 pm

Extremely high. Entry level is at or near six figure. Tops out around 200-250K unless you get a title like dean or something.

Income can be supplemented by consulting, writing case/horn books, and getting endowed chairs at your school.

Note that law prof salaries are MUCH higher than faculty salaries in other disciplines.

Anonymous User
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:00 pm

The law school dean at my UG makes $310k

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:02 pm

NYU has an average that is a few years old for first year teachers: 84,000 (2004-2005). Not sure where they got that number from though.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/acp/lawteachingm ... /index.htm

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tomhobbes
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby tomhobbes » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:02 pm

Anyone know how much schools tend to give law professors for summer research grants? Or how much extra money comes from having an endowed chair?

chitown825
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby chitown825 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:05 pm

tomhobbes wrote:Anyone know how much schools tend to give law professors for summer research grants? Or how much extra money comes from having an endowed chair?


This is my understanding of an endowed professorship. My name is Steve Stevenson and I donate $10 million to endow an international law professorship at Harvard. Schools generally require a minimum for such endowments. Harvard then hires a professor and he becomes the Steve Stevenson Professor of International Law.

The money I donated (the endowment) is invested, and the interest is his pay. The principle is never spent. Thus, if the rate of return is 5%, the professor is paid $500k. Endowed professorships pay very well.


Edit: grammar

chitown825
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby chitown825 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:09 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:NYU has an average that is a few years old for first year teachers: 84,000 (2004-2005). Not sure where they got that number from though.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/acp/lawteachingm ... /index.htm


That doesn't seem like such a good deal, considering that many of these professors are forfeiting 7-figure partnerships to teach.

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pany1985
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby pany1985 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:14 pm

Assuming you can break into academia in the first place, it's fairly easy to move on up and get tenure as opposed to making partner at Random Biglaw Firm. Plus, I'd imagine it's an easier job working fewer hours in a more pleasant working environment.

chitown825
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby chitown825 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:15 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:NYU has an average that is a few years old for first year teachers: 84,000 (2004-2005). Not sure where they got that number from though.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/acp/lawteachingm ... /index.htm


"the average salary for first year teachers across the country in 2004-2005 was $84,000"

I thought you meant at NYU, where I have to assume it's higher

270910
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby 270910 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:20 pm

chitown825 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:NYU has an average that is a few years old for first year teachers: 84,000 (2004-2005). Not sure where they got that number from though.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/acp/lawteachingm ... /index.htm


That doesn't seem like such a good deal, considering that many of these professors are forfeiting 7-figure partnerships to teach.


rofl. very, very few partners get hired as law professors. And ability as a legal mind doesn't track with partnership success, which as at least as much if not more to do with rain making / business / relationship building.

Still, they do give up a higher 6-figure salary. In exchange they get absurd benefits and quite possibly the best hours of any law job, anywhere, ever.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:23 pm

chitown825 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:NYU has an average that is a few years old for first year teachers: 84,000 (2004-2005). Not sure where they got that number from though.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/acp/lawteachingm ... /index.htm


"the average salary for first year teachers across the country in 2004-2005 was $84,000"

I thought you meant at NYU, where I have to assume it's higher


I would assume T14 first year teachers make into the 6 digits. I really don't know though. Leiter might have compiled some indepth data about this. Him or Solum (sp?) are the first two people who come to mind who might have gathered this info.

Oblomov
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Oblomov » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:56 pm

State schools' salary information is public. You can probably find it online. I think full-time lecturers start in the low six. The 65-95 percentile bracket for the top-14 is probably 220-260.

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:32 am

chitown825 wrote:
tomhobbes wrote:Anyone know how much schools tend to give law professors for summer research grants? Or how much extra money comes from having an endowed chair?


This is my understanding of an endowed professorship. My name is Steve Stevenson and I donate $10 million to endow an international law professorship at Harvard. Schools generally require a minimum for such endowments. Harvard then hires a professor and he becomes the Steve Stevenson Professor of International Law.

The money I donated (the endowment) is invested, and the interest is his pay. The principle is never spent. Thus, if the rate of return is 5%, the professor is paid $500k. Endowed professorships pay very well.


Edit: grammar

Mr. Stevenson, if you don't mind me asking, why are you bothering with law school, given your already substantial wealth? Just curious.

insidethetwenty
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby insidethetwenty » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:43 pm

http://www.saltlaw.org/userfiles/SALT_salary_survey_2009.pdf

This doesn't have every school but it has decent guesses. The tier of the school where you teach is a huge deal, too.

So to answer your question, legal academia works very much like professional golf.

Touring pros make a living playing golf all day every day. In order to stay on tour, most players have to earn 300-400k in tournament winnings every year. Early in their careers, they make a solid "salary" just by finishing in big money positions a few times every year. If they win a major here or there or one tournament every year, they get "tenure" on the tour for practically as long as they want, and get to keep playing and keep winning money. Outside of that, they can sign deals to have various patches on their shirts, hats, and golf bags. $$$ adds up.

Law professors make a living teaching law for 6-9 hours per week, 9 months a year. In order to stay a professor, you have to teach a little and write a little. Early in your career, you'll make a good salary while figuring out what you want to think/write about during your career. Once you get tenure, you can stay in your job drawing a big salary just for teaching a few classes. On top of that, professors can sign deals to consult lawyers, provide expert witnesses, write books, write commercial supplements, and any number of other things. $$$ adds up.

In fact, in terms of how much/how hard you have to work, being a law professor is pretty much easier than being a professional golfer.

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ggocat
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby ggocat » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:54 pm

chitown825 wrote:Anybody have an idea what a law professor makes at the beginning, middle of his or her career? No abstract guesses, please.

Here's a list of fellowships for aspiring law professors. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... s-for.html

There was a list, I think on TLS, that compared all of these by application timeline and salary. I don't have a link, though.

chitown825
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby chitown825 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:58 pm

FYI professors at Cooley make > $150k

cwd26
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby cwd26 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:04 pm

chitown825 wrote:
tomhobbes wrote:Anyone know how much schools tend to give law professors for summer research grants? Or how much extra money comes from having an endowed chair?


This is my understanding of an endowed professorship. My name is Steve Stevenson and I donate $10 million to endow an international law professorship at Harvard. Schools generally require a minimum for such endowments. Harvard then hires a professor and he becomes the Steve Stevenson Professor of International Law.

The money I donated (the endowment) is invested, and the interest is his pay. The principle is never spent. Thus, if the rate of return is 5%, the professor is paid $500k. Endowed professorships pay very well.


Edit: grammar


Uh.. No, I don't think so.

Endowed professorships do not pay the professor the rate of return... You think Harvard's endowed professors made nothing (or negative $$) when their endowment LOST 28% of value?

I am currently a staff member at a top-ranked university. Here, endowed professors have fixed salaries. They are intended to be funded on endowment income, but in lean years they are funded from principal. They are set up such that they make excess returns in the boom years (which is added to principal) to compensate for lean years.

Anonymous User
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:57 am

FWIW, professors at Berkeley make between $120k and $350k. This info is publicly available. See http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 7174703842.

Also, if anyone thinks it's easy being a law professor, you should check out the CVs of young faculty members. Look at how much they publish in the first five years of their careers. They work a ton. By all accounts, the hours for assistant professors are just as brutal as those for big law associates. Once profs get tenure, things change — but I know plenty of tenured professors who still regularly put in 60-hour workweeks.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby PDaddy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:04 am

disco_barred wrote:Extremely high. Entry level is at or near six figure. Tops out around 200-250K unless you get a title like dean or something.

Income can be supplemented by consulting, writing case/horn books, and getting endowed chairs at your school.

Note that law prof salaries are MUCH higher than faculty salaries in other disciplines.



This. And just to put it into context, think about being 10 years into your career, teaching the same topic you've always taught so that you know it by heart. You grade just one exam on that one topic, possibly two, all year long. You only work 1/2 of the year and get to go on a regular sabbatical where you cannot be touched (no cell phone, no e-mail...nothing!). Ten years into your career, with the right investments and outside work (author, consutlant/technical advisor, investor, legal correspondent, instructor abroad, etc), you are a millionaire and only getting richer. Teaching a subject that looks about as difficult as algebra to you. And a lot of people look at you like you are a god.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:25 am

PDaddy wrote:
disco_barred wrote:Extremely high. Entry level is at or near six figure. Tops out around 200-250K unless you get a title like dean or something.

Income can be supplemented by consulting, writing case/horn books, and getting endowed chairs at your school.

Note that law prof salaries are MUCH higher than faculty salaries in other disciplines.



This. And just to put it into context, think about being 10 years into your career, teaching the same topic you've always taught so that you know it by heart. You grade just one exam on that one topic, possibly two, all year long. You only work 1/2 of the year and get to go on a regular sabbatical where you cannot be touched (no cell phone, no e-mail...nothing!). Ten years into your career, with the right investments and outside work (author, consutlant/technical advisor, investor, legal correspondent, instructor abroad, etc), you are a millionaire and only getting richer. Teaching a subject that looks about as difficult as algebra to you. And a lot of people look at you like you are a god.


You forgot publish or die.

270910
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby 270910 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:49 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
You forgot publish or die.


Nope, note that he said 'after 10 years'. Profs have to - and do - publish a lot while they get tenure. Once they get tenure, many publish muuuuch less frequently. I'm talking 4-6 year gaps on the resume.

They do some other stuff - conferences, etc. - but once a prof has tenure, it can become an almost laughably easy job if they want it to be.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Salaries in Academia

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:25 am

There was a chart released earlier this year with salaries by school (sorry I don't have the link).

Basically, entry level professors make about $140,000 on average. By average, I don't mean just T14 or just T1. I mean all law schools (i.e. Mississippi College).

It does top out around $250,000 on average for full professors.

(this is from data released in 2010)




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