How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

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cutiewiddlebebe
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby cutiewiddlebebe » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:46 pm

You guys are rufless. Forget about the million-dollar salary. I have edited my question: How can I make partner at a V10 firm? Thank you.

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hannibalhamlin61
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby hannibalhamlin61 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:48 pm

It depends on what type of album the OP is making. In certain genres (read: rap music) going to prison is a highly desired credential & if so: sling rock, do your time & get some other idiot to finance this. Either way I don't see 'Law School' in the equation.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:51 pm

hannibalhamlin61 wrote:
cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:In all seriousness, I presume your lack of desire for emotional entanglements is a manifestation of sociopathy. This is the only explanation I can think of that for the desire of the accumulation of wealth without purpose, save for attaining an extraordinary amount of objects, which would be easier to do in a business environment.

I want to use the money to fund the production of my album, which will cost upwards of $2 million dollars. Thus, my only career goal is to make enough money to fund my only personal goal. Nothing else matters beyond that.


Oh man, I think I just stepped in shit. And by shit I mean this thread.


+1

Op, think of it this way:

1. There is a slim chance you will be in the top 20%ish (depending on which school) of your class.
2. There is a slim chance you will be recruited to work at a NLJ250 for you second summer.
3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.
6. There is around a ~66% chance that you will quit "big law" after 1-3 years.
If you did stay in the firm and didn't quit:
7. There is a good chance you will be laid off at some point
8. After ~7 years, you will be faced with either receiving a partnership offer, or being fired (you don't control this).
If you made partner:
10. You will be a "junior" partner or "non-equity" partner and not make that much more than a 7th year associate (probably around $50,000 more)
11. You will remain there until you prove yourself or get fired.
If you did not make partner:
10. Game Over
(your experience at the firm will undoubtedly get you a "good Job," but you will not be looking at $1,000,000 a year guaranteed without having been a partner at the firm you left)
If you quit the firm:
7. Game Over
(see 10 directly above)

Hope that helps.

Honestly, law is not the profession to enter for the love of money.

MBAs and MDs = Ju$t Dollaz.

Another way to look at it:

Undergrad degree in business (or science/tech) + 2 years of experience + Prestigious MBA = $$$$ (4 years for undergrad + 2 years for experience + 1 year for MBA = 7 years total)

Undergrad degree in science + MD = $$$$ (4 years for undergrad + 4 years of medical school = 8 years total)

Undergrad degree in sh*tonomics (useless majors) + Prestigious JD = $72,000* (4 years for undergrad + 3 years of law school = 7 years total)

(*unless you are in the top 10% [average across all law schools] of your class, then it would be north of $90,000 [depending on market])

Flanker1067
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby Flanker1067 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:55 pm

cutiewiddlebebe wrote:You guys are rufless. Forget about the million-dollar salary. I have edited my question: How can I make partner at a V10 firm? Thank you.


How do you think? You get in, bust your ass for years, continue to have no life, hustle to build your client base until the firm has no choice but to offer you partner or lose you (smaller firms will make offers if you have enough clients).

Add: Well I guess there is one other way. Marry a partners daughter/son.

avacado111
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby avacado111 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:05 pm

how much do people make in consulting with their undergrad degrees from buiz school with two years of undergrad experience?

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BradyToMoss
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby BradyToMoss » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:15 pm

As has already been mentioned, which firm you start out at will be very important. The best chance to make partner is starting at a very prestigious firm, that way if partner track at that firm doesn't workout you still have a hope of lateraling to another place that's willing to put you on a partner track. The best chance to start at one of these prestigious places is good marks from a great law school, so your focus needs to first be getting into a top school.

No body out there is making partner at a 1m+ PPP firm unless work is their life. Unfortunately, many more associates who are willing to give up their life don't make partner than do, so even dedication and relentless work will guarantee you nothing. You'll need to excel at what you do, but you'll also have to give the firm a reason to share some of the pie with you, which requires building a book of business. There are few service partners out there, and current market forces make it unlikely firms will be looking to add to their ranks of service partners anytime in the near future (many have already been pushed out the door).

It's a very difficult path that will require a lot of dedication, some good fortune, and a great legal ability just to have a chance at succeeding. As others have said, there are other areas in which you could more easily make big $$$. But if it's what you really want, go ahead and take a shot at it, and fuck what the risk averse nay-sayers tell you.

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bceagles182
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby bceagles182 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:16 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
hannibalhamlin61 wrote:
cutiewiddlebebe wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:In all seriousness, I presume your lack of desire for emotional entanglements is a manifestation of sociopathy. This is the only explanation I can think of that for the desire of the accumulation of wealth without purpose, save for attaining an extraordinary amount of objects, which would be easier to do in a business environment.

I want to use the money to fund the production of my album, which will cost upwards of $2 million dollars. Thus, my only career goal is to make enough money to fund my only personal goal. Nothing else matters beyond that.


Oh man, I think I just stepped in shit. And by shit I mean this thread.


+1

Op, think of it this way:

1. There is a slim chance you will be in the top 20%ish (depending on which school) of your class.
2. There is a slim chance you will be recruited to work at a NLJ250 for you second summer.
3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.
6. There is around a ~66% chance that you will quit "big law" after 1-3 years.
If you did stay in the firm and didn't quit:
7. There is a good chance you will be laid off at some point
8. After ~7 years, you will be faced with either receiving a partnership offer, or being fired (you don't control this).
If you made partner:
10. You will be a "junior" partner or "non-equity" partner and not make that much more than a 7th year associate (probably around $50,000 more)
11. You will remain there until you prove yourself or get fired.
If you did not make partner:
10. Game Over
(your experience at the firm will undoubtedly get you a "good Job," but you will not be looking at $1,000,000 a year guaranteed without having been a partner at the firm you left)
If you quit the firm:
7. Game Over
(see 10 directly above)

Hope that helps.

Honestly, law is not the profession to enter for the love of money.

MBAs and MDs = Ju$t Dollaz.

Another way to look at it:

Undergrad degree in business (or science/tech) + 2 years of experience + Prestigious MBA = $$$$ (4 years for undergrad + 2 years for experience + 1 year for MBA = 7 years total)

Undergrad degree in science + MD = $$$$ (4 years for undergrad + 4 years of medical school = 8 years total)

Undergrad degree in sh*tonomics (useless majors) + Prestigious JD = $72,000* (4 years for undergrad + 3 years of law school = 7 years total)

(*unless you are in the top 10% [average across all law schools] of your class, then it would be north of $90,000 [depending on market])


I agree with most of this. If your goal is to make partner at a V10, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I'm not saying ti can't happen, but the chances are remote even if you do everything right. At the end of the day, it's all about if you can bring business to your firm and play the political game. You need to be networking hard NOW if you're serious about this.

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rayiner
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby rayiner » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:19 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.


Firms won't continue to over-hire SA classes then defer half of them and not extend an offer to most of the people deferred. It makes absolutely no sense for a firm to spend $30k on you over the summer then not give you an offer. That happened during the market collapse, when firms' hiring needs changed dramatically between OCI and graduation, but going forward firms will just cut their hiring at OCI (which is what they have done with C/O 2011) and continue to give offers to nearly all their SAs.

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englawyer
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby englawyer » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:26 pm

avacado111 wrote:how much do people make in consulting with their undergrad degrees from buiz school with two years of undergrad experience?


i am not sure i read this correctly, but if you are asking for consulting stats post-mba, it is around 120k salary + 30k signing + 30k performance. altogether its similar to biglaw. top performers make more $$ quicker though in consulting, and can usually exit into a good business role whereas biglaw has worse exit options.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby T14_Scholly » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:34 pm

Gwen wrote:Space law is where the big bucks are at. As a first year associate you should be making 1mil easy.


LOL

Anyone who didn't detect that this thread is a flame is an idiot.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:40 pm

rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.


Firms won't continue to over-hire SA classes then defer half of them and not extend an offer to most of the people deferred. It makes absolutely no sense for a firm to spend $30k on you over the summer then not give you an offer. That happened during the market collapse, when firms' hiring needs changed dramatically between OCI and graduation, but going forward firms will just cut their hiring at OCI (which is what they have done with C/O 2011) and continue to give offers to nearly all their SAs.


True.

I was going to edit and say something like "in this economy," but I was lazy.

Op, while those percentages will likely go up by 50-70% when the economy gets back on track, you still should not set your sights on making "$1,000,000" per year with a law degree.

I really don't understand why you changed the thread topic to making partner at the V10 firm, but a lot of the same situations would occur.

The primary difference for V10 firms is that any given law school student doesn't have a dream of being hired by one. However most law school students aren't interested/don't care/aren't aware.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby UnitarySpace » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:45 pm

For med school you also need ~4 years of residency. Total time = 12 years.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:49 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:For med school you also need ~4 years of residency. Total time = 12 years.


Who told you that? (2yr + 2yr not 4yr + 4yr)

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rayiner
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby rayiner » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:30 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.


Firms won't continue to over-hire SA classes then defer half of them and not extend an offer to most of the people deferred. It makes absolutely no sense for a firm to spend $30k on you over the summer then not give you an offer. That happened during the market collapse, when firms' hiring needs changed dramatically between OCI and graduation, but going forward firms will just cut their hiring at OCI (which is what they have done with C/O 2011) and continue to give offers to nearly all their SAs.


I was going to edit and say something like "in this economy," but I was lazy.


Even if the economy stays this way you're not going to see deferrals and no-offers. The firms might not give a shit about jerking around law students, but it's not in their interest either to throw away $30k on a bunch of SAs they don't end up hiring. You'll almost certainly see offer rates go back up to 85-95% (historical levels) for C/O 2011 SAs, unless the economy takes another dive in the meantime.

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TTT-LS
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby TTT-LS » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:40 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pany1985
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby pany1985 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:13 am

rayiner wrote:Note that there are only 17 firms that average more than $1m PPP: --LinkRemoved--

Although very senior partners at lower firms will make more than the average PPP, you're unlikely to hit $1 million/year at any point working at a firm not on that list.


Those numbers are about ten years old at this point. I think there are quite a few more firms with PPP over $1 million now. Not that it really makes a significant difference in your main point though, since even with more firms on the list a particular person's chance of making partner at any of them is still pretty small.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:32 am

TTT-LS wrote:
rayiner wrote:Even if the economy stays this way you're not going to see deferrals and no-offers. The firms might not give a shit about jerking around law students, but it's not in their interest either to throw away $30k on a bunch of SAs they don't end up hiring. You'll almost certainly see offer rates go back up to 85-95% (historical levels) for C/O 2011 SAs, unless the economy takes another dive in the meantime.

Correct, per usual w/Rayiner's posts.


Yeah. I'm not sure people realized how much SA hiring dropped this year--and how that is a positive thing for those of us lucky enough to get hired as SAs. (Mayer Chicago, for example, hired 11 SAs this year. Normally, they're well over 50. These are not minor cuts to programs. Skadden hired something like 100 SAs *total* among all offices; I think they used to be closer to 80 for NYC alone.)

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RVP11
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby RVP11 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:37 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.


How are these necessarily accurate for the class of 2011 on?

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TTT-LS
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:07 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: My only career goal is to make over 1 million dollars/year.

Postby RVP11 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:26 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:3. There is about a ~40%-50% chance that that firm will extend you a permanent offer (given that you perform well).
4. There is about the same chance (~40%-50%) that you will be deferred for a year or two.
5. There is a ~33% chance that that deferment will not evolve into an actual associate position.


How are these necessarily accurate for the class of 2011 on?

They aren't. That was Rayiner's point.


RC fail.

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UnitarySpace
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby UnitarySpace » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:34 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:For med school you also need ~4 years of residency. Total time = 12 years.


Who told you that? (2yr + 2yr not 4yr + 4yr)


This is common knowledge. Med school is 4 years. Then you start applying for residencies. Ask a med student or look on wikipedia if you don't believe me.

edit: Residents are paid terribly (more like living stipends).
Last edited by UnitarySpace on Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sundevil77
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby sundevil77 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:41 pm

UnitarySpace wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:For med school you also need ~4 years of residency. Total time = 12 years.


Who told you that? (2yr + 2yr not 4yr + 4yr)


This is common knowledge. Med school is 4 years. Then you start applying for residencies. Ask a med student or look on wikipedia if you don't believe me.


Yes, MD=12 years (including residency). However, it probably offers the best deal in terms of salary + job security. Seriously, we all should've gone into medicine.

Edit: With the new gov't healthcare, I'm sure reimbursement rates for doctors are going to go down. Still, they'll probably be making $$$

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UnitarySpace
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby UnitarySpace » Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:45 pm

sundevil77 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
UnitarySpace wrote:For med school you also need ~4 years of residency. Total time = 12 years.


Who told you that? (2yr + 2yr not 4yr + 4yr)


This is common knowledge. Med school is 4 years. Then you start applying for residencies. Ask a med student or look on wikipedia if you don't believe me.


Yes, MD=12 years (including residency). However, it probably offers the best deal in terms of salary + job security. Seriously, we all should've gone into medicine.

Edit: With the new gov't healthcare, I'm sure reimbursement rates for doctors are going to go down. Still, they'll probably be making $$$


TITCR. The road to becoming a doctor is crazy as hell, but after you're done with residency and your loans are repaid it's smooth sailing.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby BradyToMoss » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:15 pm

Yes, smooth sailing after repaying $400k in student loans, after doing more work in half a year of med school than law students do in 3 years, after spending 4 years working 100 hours weeks as a resident making 1/3 of what Summer Associates are paid to attend baseball games and other events.

scionb4
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Re: How can I make partner at a V10 firm?

Postby scionb4 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:18 pm

--ImageRemoved--




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