The Jobless 1L Thread

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SteelReserve
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby SteelReserve » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:07 am

Reminder: You're a 1L. It doesn't matter WHAT you do, just do SOMETHING.


TITCR. OP, I cannot comprehend why you did not try to get a judicial internship or why you have ignored RA positions 'because [you incorrectly think] they will not look good on the resume"

Beggars can't be choosers. By all measures you probably missed the judicial internship boat at this point though you can still try phone calls/mass mailings. I would get your butt in gear to try to get an RA position before it's too late, if it isn't already.

legends159
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby legends159 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:41 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here...so I got an offer for unpaid internship at a solo firm. Should I just cut my losses and take it? It might be better to focus on finals at this point in the semester.


congrats. Take it and run. Focus on your finals instead of stressing over job hunt.

come fall OCI grades are much more important than what summer job you did. Just make the most out of your summer and think of one or two main things you can talk about during OCI.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby 270910 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:58 pm

dbt wrote:RA positions can actually be very competitive/impressive, particularly for those students looking to clerk. I'm RAing for the summer and most likely could have gotten a firm job (and I know a number of classmates in the same position). Try that path out.


Your point about RAs is only marginally true. The big 'issue' with the statement is that profs don't go anywhere, and you only have one 1L summer. Any ass-kissing / impressing you want to do for Mighty Prof X can likely be done over the school year.

Point two is abso-fucking-lutely laughable. You're a 1L who could most likely have gotten a firm job? Really now? ITE called, they want your hopeless naivety back -.-

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dbt
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby dbt » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:34 pm

disco_barred wrote:
dbt wrote:RA positions can actually be very competitive/impressive, particularly for those students looking to clerk. I'm RAing for the summer and most likely could have gotten a firm job (and I know a number of classmates in the same position). Try that path out.


Your point about RAs is only marginally true. The big 'issue' with the statement is that profs don't go anywhere, and you only have one 1L summer. Any ass-kissing / impressing you want to do for Mighty Prof X can likely be done over the school year.

Point two is abso-fucking-lutely laughable. You're a 1L who could most likely have gotten a firm job? Really now? ITE called, they want your hopeless naivety back -.-


Yeah, I'm aware that professors don't go anywhere, but the competition at my school at least is pretty significant for summer RA positions because the professors take them very seriously and tend to shepherd the students they hire for the rest of their law school education. Also, for the majority of professors that I applied to, being hired during the summer translated into being hired in the fall, and in many cases professors stated that they were "all full" for the fall and spring of the 2L year because of this tendency for summer RAs to stay on board.

As to your 2nd point, I'm assuming you have no idea which school I go to or what my grades are, so your claim isn't really based on much, if anything at all. You're presuming that 1Ls, regardless of the school they're at or the grades they have, cannot get firm jobs. That is undoubtedly false, as a good number of my classmates have firm jobs for the summer.

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Rocky Estoppel
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Rocky Estoppel » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:23 pm

I've got an internship lined up for the 2nd half of the summer. How bad does it look if I only worked for half a summer? I'm not sure I'll find anyone else willing to take me for the other half.

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Grond
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Grond » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Matthies wrote:You need to get out into the working legal community and meet working lawyers and judges, your classmates don't have jobs to offer you these folks do. Join the local bar association as a student member, get involved OUTSIDE of school, see if there are Inns of Court in your town.

I also would not rule out working for a solo, one of the best choices I made. I got to everything, and I mean everything, in that job, learned a ton more about actual practical hands on experience then I did when I was at larger firms. Plus he introduced me to tons of people, having been practicing for 30 years he knew all the movers and shakers and made it a point to introduce me to as many as he could.

The key is finding a good solo who is willing to mentor you and not just use your free (or low paid) help. Simplicity and random e-mails s NOT how to do it. You need to get to know lawyers/judges, they will know who has a rep in town for being a good mentor and who will just work you to death.

If you can't find anything paid this summer see if you can volunteer for someone and get credit for it as an internship. But seriously, you're doing it wrong. Simplicity and random e-mails is what everyone else is doing, you need to stand out from the heard, you do that by getting to know people who can personally recommend you for jobs no one else even knows about it. If you do or do not find something for this summer you should make networking your top, or second to top priority.


Welcome back, exiler. How was the bar?

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Unemployed
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Unemployed » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:30 pm

disco_barred wrote:
dbt wrote:RA positions can actually be very competitive/impressive, particularly for those students looking to clerk. I'm RAing for the summer and most likely could have gotten a firm job (and I know a number of classmates in the same position). Try that path out.


Your point about RAs is only marginally true. The big 'issue' with the statement is that profs don't go anywhere, and you only have one 1L summer. Any ass-kissing / impressing you want to do for Mighty Prof X can likely be done over the school year.

Point two is abso-fucking-lutely laughable. You're a 1L who could most likely have gotten a firm job? Really now? ITE called, they want your hopeless naivety back -.-


Err... I think top 10% at NYU is good enough for a firm job.

legends159
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby legends159 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:48 pm

Let's just get this out on the table: good grades at top schools does not guarantee 1L hiring.

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dbt
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby dbt » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:01 pm

legends159 wrote:Let's just get this out on the table: good grades at top schools does not guarantee 1L hiring.


which is why I said "likely." Look, I don't want to derail this thread/focus on something so stupid. All I'm getting at is that RA positions can be desirable and don't necessarily look like shit on your resume, as OP seemed to think. I don't really care to argue about whether I could have gotten a firm job for sure. I'm just saying I had a good possibility of getting something, and I know that most of the kids RAing are top of the class/going for clerkships, so RAs aren't, as we thought when we got here, the "fallback option."

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby 270910 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:56 pm

dbt wrote:As to your 2nd point, I'm assuming you have no idea which school I go to or what my grades are, so your claim isn't really based on much, if anything at all. You're presuming that 1Ls, regardless of the school they're at or the grades they have, cannot get firm jobs. That is undoubtedly false, as a good number of my classmates have firm jobs for the summer.


legends159 wrote:Let's just get this out on the table: good grades at top schools does not guarantee 1L hiring.


dbt wrote:Which is why I said "likely." Look, I don't want to derail this thread/focus on something so stupid. All I'm getting at is that RA positions can be desirable and don't necessarily look like shit on your resume, as OP seemed to think. I don't really care to argue about whether I could have gotten a firm job for sure. I'm just saying I had a good possibility of getting something, and I know that most of the kids RAing are top of the class/going for clerkships, so RAs aren't, as we thought when we got here, the "fallback option."


Agreed that it's not worth derailing the thread. You're certainly correct that RA positions are desirable and hardly bad looking on the resume.

I took extreme umbrage at your usage of the word 'likely'. As legends159 pointed out, it's just too hard to predict. In my limited sample of first hand knowledge, I know people with connections + top grades (think: substantially better than top 10%) + top undergrad + top top law school who struck out on the firm search. I also know people with basically exactly median grades (again, at a top school) that did pull down a big firm job. The 1L market is just too arbitrary for me to think anybody can claim it would have been likely.

Plenty of people I know have firm jobs too; I just strongly believe each individual - basically no matter the grades or school - is far from being 'likely' to get one.

At the end of the day it's mostly just splitting hairs. I probably jumped too hard on your comment (even though I still don't agree with it), for that I apologize.

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A'nold
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:33 pm

Still jobless. I hope to get some kind of RA position, but man, I don't know. What happens if you are at the top of your class but do nothing for 1L summer? :shock:

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:03 pm

A'nold wrote:Still jobless. I hope to get some kind of RA position, but man, I don't know. What happens if you are at the top of your class but do nothing for 1L summer? :shock:


You are like the king of your school right now. :mrgreen: I highly doubt you're going to do nothing for 1L summer.

What do you guys think about interning abroad? That's a very popular option at my school, due to the competition for even unpaid PI here in New York.

For my part, I got extremely lucky, and I accepted an offer at a local nonprofit. Have you guys been applying to similar organizations? Particularly, I would ask around at the places you've been doing pro bono or volunteer hours. I just feel like it's so much more effective than mass email/ snail mailings. I still don't look like much on paper, and aren't we all more memorable in person?

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A'nold
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:06 pm

Yeah well the only thing we get around here are externships and paying to work somewhere just isn't going to work out for me. :(

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wiseowl
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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby wiseowl » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:19 pm

dbt wrote:As to your 2nd point, I'm assuming you have no idea which school I go to or what my grades are, so your claim isn't really based on much, if anything at all. You're presuming that 1Ls, regardless of the school they're at or the grades they have, cannot get firm jobs. That is undoubtedly false, as a good number of my classmates have firm jobs for the summer.


To be fair, you have previously posted on this forum that you are top 10% at NYU. Actually, if I remember correctly, you said "Assume I'm 10% at NYU", like it was no big deal.

It's in your profile.

And whether you meant it or not, your comment came off as arrogant. Sorry.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby dbt » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:07 pm

wiseowl wrote:
dbt wrote:As to your 2nd point, I'm assuming you have no idea which school I go to or what my grades are, so your claim isn't really based on much, if anything at all. You're presuming that 1Ls, regardless of the school they're at or the grades they have, cannot get firm jobs. That is undoubtedly false, as a good number of my classmates have firm jobs for the summer.


To be fair, you have previously posted on this forum that you are top 10% at NYU. Actually, if I remember correctly, you said "Assume I'm 10% at NYU", like it was no big deal.

It's in your profile.

And whether you meant it or not, your comment came off as arrogant. Sorry.


Ah, well my comment wasn't meant to come across as arrogant, but rather to try to pump up the prestige of research assistant positions, which are undervalued on this board (especially if you're looking to clerk and have well-respected profs at your school).

But no, I don't consider myself impressive enough to be capable of being arrogant, especially on TLS.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby dbt » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:09 pm

dbt wrote:
wiseowl wrote:
dbt wrote:As to your 2nd point, I'm assuming you have no idea which school I go to or what my grades are, so your claim isn't really based on much, if anything at all. You're presuming that 1Ls, regardless of the school they're at or the grades they have, cannot get firm jobs. That is undoubtedly false, as a good number of my classmates have firm jobs for the summer.


To be fair, you have previously posted on this forum that you are top 10% at NYU. Actually, if I remember correctly, you said "Assume I'm 10% at NYU", like it was no big deal.

It's in your profile.

And whether you meant it or not, your comment came off as arrogant. Sorry.


Ah, well my comment wasn't meant to come across as arrogant, but rather to try to pump up the prestige of research assistant positions, which are undervalued on this board (especially if you're looking to clerk and have well-respected profs at your school). People tend to assume they're the last resort and that people that get them couldn't get anything else. At least at NYU, that couldn't be farther from the truth. The majority of kids that have them actually probably have higher grades than me, so...

But no, I don't consider myself impressive enough to be capable of being arrogant, especially on TLS.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:05 pm

So......A professor that I would love to RA for said that he'd say in about a month when and if he will be looking for an RA. It's been about a month and he hasn't said anything yet. Should I contact him again about it or wait until he "announces" it? Also, is it kosher to send apps. to random professors at the school asking about RA positions?

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby dbt » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:26 pm

A'nold wrote:So......A professor that I would love to RA for said that he'd say in about a month when and if he will be looking for an RA. It's been about a month and he hasn't said anything yet. Should I contact him again about it or wait until he "announces" it? Also, is it kosher to send apps. to random professors at the school asking about RA positions?


keep hounding that professor (really, they're busy/forgetful, and love it when you act like you really want the job). Also yeah there's no harm at all in sending apps to random professors, but I imagine a lot of them will say they've filled spots.

also FWIW, I got really good reviews during interviews because my cover letters included references to an article by whichever professor I was applying to, and a couple sentences of what I thought. surprisingly, very few students actually become acquainted with what the professor does or take the time to read an article, and when you show the initiative like that they are really impressed + it strokes their ego.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:35 pm

dbt wrote:
A'nold wrote:So......A professor that I would love to RA for said that he'd say in about a month when and if he will be looking for an RA. It's been about a month and he hasn't said anything yet. Should I contact him again about it or wait until he "announces" it? Also, is it kosher to send apps. to random professors at the school asking about RA positions?


keep hounding that professor (really, they're busy/forgetful, and love it when you act like you really want the job). Also yeah there's no harm at all in sending apps to random professors, but I imagine a lot of them will say they've filled spots.

also FWIW, I got really good reviews during interviews because my cover letters included references to an article by whichever professor I was applying to, and a couple sentences of what I thought. surprisingly, very few students actually become acquainted with what the professor does or take the time to read an article, and when you show the initiative like that they are really impressed + it strokes their ego.


Interesting. Thanks for the response.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:43 pm

A'nold wrote:Yeah well the only thing we get around here are externships and paying to work somewhere just isn't going to work out for me. :(


I agree about the paying to intern. My school offers a couple of grants for interning abroad, and I've heard from classmates that it really is easier to get positions elsewhere. (It seems people at my school are looking either in NYC or in other countries, so I'm not certain how this plays out in other US markets. Extra debt is sucky, though my understanding is that you can borrow if you're going to get credits.)

I'll also add my voice to the chorus in praise of RA work-- I would love to do this in the fall.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:45 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
A'nold wrote:Yeah well the only thing we get around here are externships and paying to work somewhere just isn't going to work out for me. :(


I agree about the paying to intern. My school offers a couple of grants for interning abroad, and I've heard from classmates that it really is easier to get positions elsewhere. (It seems people at my school are looking either in NYC or in other countries, so I'm not certain how this plays out in other US markets. Extra debt is sucky, though my understanding is that you can borrow if you're going to get credits.)

I'll also add my voice to the chorus in praise of RA work-- I would love to do this in the fall.


If I stay at my current school I will likely RA next year as well.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:57 pm

disco_barred wrote:
dbt wrote:RA positions can actually be very competitive/impressive, particularly for those students looking to clerk. I'm RAing for the summer and most likely could have gotten a firm job (and I know a number of classmates in the same position). Try that path out.


Your point about RAs is only marginally true. The big 'issue' with the statement is that profs don't go anywhere, and you only have one 1L summer. Any ass-kissing / impressing you want to do for Mighty Prof X can likely be done over the school year.

Point two is abso-fucking-lutely laughable. You're a 1L who could most likely have gotten a firm job? Really now? ITE called, they want your hopeless naivety back -.-


OP here...I am inclined to agree with this guy. 1Ls like me from mediocre schools should not be applying for firms. You must have connections it seems. Grades most likely will not help.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
dbt wrote:RA positions can actually be very competitive/impressive, particularly for those students looking to clerk. I'm RAing for the summer and most likely could have gotten a firm job (and I know a number of classmates in the same position). Try that path out.


Your point about RAs is only marginally true. The big 'issue' with the statement is that profs don't go anywhere, and you only have one 1L summer. Any ass-kissing / impressing you want to do for Mighty Prof X can likely be done over the school year.

Point two is abso-fucking-lutely laughable. You're a 1L who could most likely have gotten a firm job? Really now? ITE called, they want your hopeless naivety back -.-


OP here...I am inclined to agree with this guy. 1Ls like me from mediocre schools should not be applying for firms. You must have connections it seems. Grades most likely will not help.


Yep, grades sure didn't help me this summer! :)

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Matthies » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:34 pm

Grond wrote:
Matthies wrote:You need to get out into the working legal community and meet working lawyers and judges, your classmates don't have jobs to offer you these folks do. Join the local bar association as a student member, get involved OUTSIDE of school, see if there are Inns of Court in your town.

I also would not rule out working for a solo, one of the best choices I made. I got to everything, and I mean everything, in that job, learned a ton more about actual practical hands on experience then I did when I was at larger firms. Plus he introduced me to tons of people, having been practicing for 30 years he knew all the movers and shakers and made it a point to introduce me to as many as he could.

The key is finding a good solo who is willing to mentor you and not just use your free (or low paid) help. Simplicity and random e-mails s NOT how to do it. You need to get to know lawyers/judges, they will know who has a rep in town for being a good mentor and who will just work you to death.

If you can't find anything paid this summer see if you can volunteer for someone and get credit for it as an internship. But seriously, you're doing it wrong. Simplicity and random e-mails is what everyone else is doing, you need to stand out from the heard, you do that by getting to know people who can personally recommend you for jobs no one else even knows about it. If you do or do not find something for this summer you should make networking your top, or second to top priority.


Welcome back, exiler. How was the bar?



Well I I'll just say I hope I don't have to do that again. :)

As to the getting a job thing. Look, I'll be blunt for a couple of reasons: I've been where u all where, I've done that, and I've worked in the legal profession for a few years (went to LS part-time worked during the day). If you're asking yourself should I apply here, or bother this guy about a job i have not heard from in three weeks, you're not going to make the cut as a lawyer in the long run. Does not mean you can't change, but folks the honest truth is law is more like sales than it is accounting, you can't just expect to the do the minimum and get paid 100k plus.

Go getters, the folks that stick their necks out and take the ianative win. Even over grades and everything else. There is only so much waiting for a senior associate to give you work a firm will put up with.

The point is if your timid now, or unsure what to do or shy about sticking your neck out, get over it NOW while you're in school. Cuase you won't last long at a firm if you're not persistent about finding, creating and making work. Law IS sales, most of time you create legal work for your clients, not the other way around. If that dose not make sense to you it will after a summer of working at a firm. Partners become partners because they are good at making/creating business (i.e. legal work where there was none before), not necessarily because they are good at the law. You can be a great lawyer, but the shitty legal mind across the hall whose good at creating business will be telling you what to do in a few years. That's how it works at firms. There are a TON of people who can do legal work, only a few who are really good at creating it. Those folks win even when they lose.

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Re: The Jobless 1L Thread

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:22 pm

It's almost April and I'm still in this boat...I've tried the email to alumni at solo firms, I've tried the public defender's offices, and I've tried the RA route. Despite getting fairly good grades at a T25, I haven't gotten any bites. Unfortunately, the combination of a bad year + my resume reading like a blank page did it in for me.

I know that the idea of paying for work that should be free (internship) is not the greatest (ok, it's dumb) and adding 6-8k more on my debt might sting later on, but at this point, I would rather have SOMETHING to talk about at OCI than nothing. I've started looking into those internship placement programs where you basically buy yourself an internship abroad. The way I see it is that it's slightly cheaper than studying abroad in Europe (10k+) and less than SCU's study + internship for 18k.

Basically, besides feeling like a whore, are there any other possible issues I might run into at OCI if I intern abroad in Hong Kong or something?




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