How do you get into elite law firms??

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narkizopoint
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby narkizopoint » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:35 pm

head?

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TTT-LS
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby TTT-LS » Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:49 pm

,
Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:09 pm

SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.


Where did anyone say that?

You can't get into V10s with a 3.4 from UVA like maybe you could in the past (Skadden). These days you just need more like a 3.6 or 3.7 to put these firms in play. Probably 3.9+ for W&C, Cravath, Wachtell, etc.

You'd probably need 3.5+ to transfer to Columbia/Chicago and 3.6, 3.7 or better to transfer to YHS, anyway. I don't think a transfer would do much.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby 270910 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:07 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.


Where did anyone say that?

You can't get into V10s with a 3.4 from UVA like maybe you could in the past (Skadden). These days you just need more like a 3.6 or 3.7 to put these firms in play. Probably 3.9+ for W&C, Cravath, Wachtell, etc.

You'd probably need 3.5+ to transfer to Columbia/Chicago and 3.6, 3.7 or better to transfer to YHS, anyway. I don't think a transfer would do much.


Where are you sourcing these numbers? Intuition?

I don't have major beef with them, but they just seem oddly concrete. And some are definitely off - first, Wachtell is not in play if you're at UVA, period. Second, probably not many more than 10 people each year will have even >3.8 after 1L, but you really think it will take a 3.9+ from UVA just to put W&C and Cravath 'in play'? I can't imagine that it's gotten quite that bad...

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RVP11
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:23 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.


Where did anyone say that?

You can't get into V10s with a 3.4 from UVA like maybe you could in the past (Skadden). These days you just need more like a 3.6 or 3.7 to put these firms in play. Probably 3.9+ for W&C, Cravath, Wachtell, etc.

You'd probably need 3.5+ to transfer to Columbia/Chicago and 3.6, 3.7 or better to transfer to YHS, anyway. I don't think a transfer would do much.


Where are you sourcing these numbers? Intuition?

I don't have major beef with them, but they just seem oddly concrete. And some are definitely off - first, Wachtell is not in play if you're at UVA, period. Second, probably not many more than 10 people each year will have even >3.8 after 1L, but you really think it will take a 3.9+ from UVA just to put W&C and Cravath 'in play'? I can't imagine that it's gotten quite that bad...


Intuition, unofficial cutoffs that I've seen, word of mouth.

Do you go to UVA? In any given year there could be 8 people with 3.8+ or 15 people with 3.8+. Yes, 3.9 is probably an exaggeration for W&C and Cravath, though. If you're grade-on Law Review (~3.7), you probably have a shot.

Wachtell is a black box. No, they don't have any UVA associates and they don't do OGI. But Wachtell DOES hire from schools where they don't do OGI. If you're a 3.9+/COA/SCOTUS clerk from UVA, you probably have a chance.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Renzo » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:30 pm

SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.

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RVP11
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby RVP11 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:31 pm

Renzo wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.


Yep. It's a lot of fuss over a prestige bump.

rando
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby rando » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:36 pm

Renzo wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.


Not to mention many transfers got screwed period. Let alone Wachtell et al.

sperry
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby sperry » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:05 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?


IDK about CCN, but no way is top third at MVPBDCN cutting it for Skadden, much less the Cravaths, Wachtells, and S&Cs of the world.

If I were right at the top third mark after 1L, I certainly wouldn't be wasting any bids on V20 firms.




My legal writing instructor at my MVP had below median grades 1st semester, did very well 2nd semester, finished right around top 1/3 and has a job offer at one of the "much less" firms you mentioned, so it is possible.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:27 pm

Renzo wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.

Unfortunately there is a difference between V10 and V100 long term. When you get sick of biglaw and want to go somewhere else the prestige of the V10 firm carries with you, giving you better job prospects. Unfortunately the legal profession is driven by prestige through and through.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:30 pm

sperry wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?


IDK about CCN, but no way is top third at MVPBDCN cutting it for Skadden, much less the Cravaths, Wachtells, and S&Cs of the world.

If I were right at the top third mark after 1L, I certainly wouldn't be wasting any bids on V20 firms.




My legal writing instructor at my MVP had below median grades 1st semester, did very well 2nd semester, finished right around top 1/3 and has a job offer at one of the "much less" firms you mentioned, so it is possible.

Is your LWI law review? I would be very surprised if he or she was not.

sperry
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby sperry » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:09 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
sperry wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?


IDK about CCN, but no way is top third at MVPBDCN cutting it for Skadden, much less the Cravaths, Wachtells, and S&Cs of the world.

If I were right at the top third mark after 1L, I certainly wouldn't be wasting any bids on V20 firms.




My legal writing instructor at my MVP had below median grades 1st semester, did very well 2nd semester, finished right around top 1/3 and has a job offer at one of the "much less" firms you mentioned, so it is possible.

Is your LWI law review? I would be very surprised if he or she was not.



No law review, no Ivy league pedigree or anything like that. They are very personable and I'm sure interviewed well, for what that's worth.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:19 pm

sperry wrote:No law review, no Ivy league pedigree or anything like that. They are very personable and I'm sure interviewed well, for what that's worth.

Your LWI might be full of shit.

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Rand M.
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:28 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
Renzo wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.

Unfortunately there is a difference between V10 and V100 long term. When you get sick of biglaw and want to go somewhere else the prestige of the V10 firm carries with you, giving you better job prospects. Unfortunately the legal profession is driven by prestige through and through.


This was always the impression I was under. I thought the reason V10 was desirable was because of what that resume line would allow you to do after.

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rayiner
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:30 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
sperry wrote:No law review, no Ivy league pedigree or anything like that. They are very personable and I'm sure interviewed well, for what that's worth.

Your LWI might be full of shit.


Presumably this was during the boom. Penn placed 22% V10 in 2007. I wouldn't put top 1/3 with a great interview getting a V10 firm into the "full of shit" category at all.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Action Jackson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:38 pm

rayiner wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:
sperry wrote:No law review, no Ivy league pedigree or anything like that. They are very personable and I'm sure interviewed well, for what that's worth.

Your LWI might be full of shit.


Presumably this was during the boom. Penn placed 22% V10 in 2007. I wouldn't put top 1/3 with a great interview getting a V10 firm into the "full of shit" category at all.


Top 1/3 in 2008 into V10? Maybe. Top 1/3 in 2008 w/o LR into one of the firms mention (aka V4)? No way. I don't buy it, unless the LWI gave the interviewer blow or a blow job.

sperry
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby sperry » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:52 pm

Action Jackson wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Action Jackson wrote:
sperry wrote:No law review, no Ivy league pedigree or anything like that. They are very personable and I'm sure interviewed well, for what that's worth.

Your LWI might be full of shit.


Presumably this was during the boom. Penn placed 22% V10 in 2007. I wouldn't put top 1/3 with a great interview getting a V10 firm into the "full of shit" category at all.


Top 1/3 in 2008 into V10? Maybe. Top 1/3 in 2008 w/o LR into one of the firms mention (aka V4)? No way. I don't buy it, unless the LWI gave the interviewer blow or a blow job.



LWI isn't full of shit.

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TheBigMediocre
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby TheBigMediocre » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:29 pm

You have a better chance of playing in the NFL then getting hired by Wachtell.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Renzo » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:17 pm

TheBigMediocre wrote:You have a better chance of playing in the NFL then getting hired by Wachtell.

Way, way, way better chance, statistically speaking. You have a better chance of playing for any one specific NFL team of your choosing than getting hired by Wachtell.

heyguys
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby heyguys » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:20 pm

I just can't for the life of me appreciate why it is that folks would be super concerned with working for the Wachtells/Cravaths of the world. I mean, if you visit the firm and like it then great, but seriously.....who cares? And when does the 'pointlessly chase the 'next best thing'' end?

iceman12354
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby iceman12354 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:30 pm

As kind of an anomaly, I know Duke is sending 5% (10+) of it's 2L summer associates to just one V10 firm (Simpson). I think that's just behind Harvard. FWIW.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:57 pm

Renzo wrote:
TheBigMediocre wrote:You have a better chance of playing in the NFL then getting hired by Wachtell.

Way, way, way better chance, statistically speaking. You have a better chance of playing for any one specific NFL team of your choosing than getting hired by Wachtell.


This is assuming you are person X. If you're already in law school, you have a way better chance of getting hired by Wachtell.

270910
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby 270910 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:10 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
TheBigMediocre wrote:You have a better chance of playing in the NFL then getting hired by Wachtell.

Way, way, way better chance, statistically speaking. You have a better chance of playing for any one specific NFL team of your choosing than getting hired by Wachtell.


This is assuming you are person X. If you're already in law school, you have a way better chance of getting hired by Wachtell.


+1. Wachtell isn't impossible by any means to get from HYSCC(N?P?). I know at boom they'll take a half dozen plus just from Columbia, and given the options the top of CLS has I doubt it's just students #1-X.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:19 am

JSUVA2012 wrote:
This is assuming you are person X. If you're already in law school, you have a way better chance of getting hired by Wachtell.


disco_barred wrote:+1. Wachtell isn't impossible by any means to get from HYSCC(N?P?). I know at boom they'll take a half dozen plus just from Columbia, and given the options the top of CLS has I doubt it's just students #1-X.

Both of these statements are true, but the odds are still not great. Not impossible, but bad enough that worrying about whether or not you'll be the one is silly. They took 5 1/2 people (we'll call it 6) on avg from CLS from 2005-7. If you assume that they're only seriously considering people with a 3.5 or better, the odds are still about 5% for any given student with the grades. And that was at the height of the boom.

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FunkyJD
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:41 am

rando wrote:
Renzo wrote:
SweetnessUVA wrote:This thread is pretty much an endorsement of trying to transfer to a HYS/CCN school, since ITE, it seems like those are the only places where you are finding V10 jobs.

Most of the people at HYSCCN are shut out of the V10, so that wouldn't be a prudent reason to transfer. One would be better off realizing that there is nothing that different about a V10 firm as opposed to a V100 firm, and not obsessing about it.


Not to mention many transfers got screwed period. Let alone Wachtell et al.

Explain what you mean by this. Does transferring to a higher-ranked school adversely affect your job search? How so? I'm trying to understand how this works.

For example ... if your goal was to work for a V100 firm ... if you went to a Tier 2 school, and had the grades to transfer to T14 school after your first year ... would you be better off staying at that Tier 2 and maxing our your grades there, doing law review, etc; or would it be worth it professionally to try and transfer to a T14 school?




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