How do you get into elite law firms??

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SOCRATiC
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How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:19 pm

i.e. Slaughter, Cravath, Wachtell, Sullivan/Crom., etc. How do these firms recruit?

1. What tier do they generally recruit from (HYS, T6, T10, T14, T30, etc.)
2. What are the general cut-offs in terms of grades? I already see that this might depend on the school as well, but if someone could offer some realistic guidelines, that would be great!
3. Besides grades, what are the other factors considered by elite law firms in selecting their first year associates (as well as SA)?

THanks:D

Also: Anyone know about lateral hires throughout elite law firms?
Last edited by SOCRATiC on Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anonymous User
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:30 pm

1. I think most of them recruit T10
2. At a T6 top third is pretty much the floor--law review might earn a person a bit more grade flexibility.
3. beyond grades there's no real pattern to who they pick, at least from what I've seen-- you just need to get along with the interviewer.

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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:32 pm

They recruit at Michigan. I don't know what the grade cutoff is. Law Review isn't essential, but most of the people I've known at those firms were Law Review-ers.

Renzo
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1. I think most of them recruit T10
2. At a T6 top third is pretty much the floor--law review might earn a person a bit more grade flexibility.
3. beyond grades there's no real pattern to who they pick, at least from what I've seen-- you just need to get along with the interviewer.

This is all pretty solid

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Muckduck
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Muckduck » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:36 pm

Depends on the firm, but the cut off is certainly not T14.

For instance, I know that DPW recruits from BYU, which is ranked in the 40's. It seems as if lawyers are sent to their alma maters to recruit. Depending on how ritzy the school is determines how deep in the class they are willing to look. E.g. It seems as if only the top 10% at BYU get looked at, but the top 50% at T3 are in the running.

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SOCRATiC
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:37 pm

Sounds pretty realistic:D I'm sure getting into these law firms might be hard, but aren't the attrition rates at these law firms pretty bad too? Or are they pretty similar to the rest of the NLJ 250?

Anonymous User wrote:2. At a T6 top third is pretty much the floor--law review might earn a person a bit more grade flexibility.


Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?

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SOCRATiC
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Re: How do you get into elite law firms??

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:They recruit at Michigan. I don't know what the grade cutoff is. Law Review isn't essential, but most of the people I've known at those firms were Law Review-ers.


Are moot courts just moot in terms of biglaw employment (especially the elite ones)?

And the million-dollar-question for me:

How do international students fare for elite law firms?
Last edited by SOCRATiC on Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BetterCallSaul
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby BetterCallSaul » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:38 pm

they basically don't do lateral hires at the top few firms.

you might get a second swing at them if you do a good clerkship, but only if the economy improves.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:39 pm

Muckduck wrote:Depends on the firm, but the cut off is certainly not T14.

For instance, I know that DPW recruits from BYU, which is ranked in the 40's. It seems as if lawyers are sent to their alma maters to recruit. Depending on how ritzy the school is determines how deep in the class they are willing to look. E.g. It seems as if only the top 10% at BYU get looked at, but the top 50% at T3 are in the running.

Davis Polk has exactly ONE BYU grad listed on its website. Top 10% seems to be a huge overestimate.

BetterCallSaul
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby BetterCallSaul » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:49 pm

international students--if you mean LLMs, they are having a terrible time getting jobs at US firms right now. The timing is bad for them. If you're talking about international JD students, it all depends on the grades.

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SOCRATiC
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:51 pm

BetterCallSaul wrote:international students--if you mean LLMs, they are having a terrible time getting jobs at US firms right now. The timing is bad for them. If you're talking about international JD students, it all depends on the grades.


I'm going for a JD. When you say it depends on grades, does it mean that they won't be all hesitant about my work authorization problems? (I'm hoping that they have a separate human resource department that can handle this). I'm a little paranoid about this, because I've been dinged so many times after I answer "No" to the question "Are you legally authorized to work in the United States?" Even from large companies such as GM, PwC, etc.

I'm thinking though, since my fiance (A permanent residency card holder) and I will be getting married soon, would it be wise to tell law firms about an impending work permit even if they don't ask about it?

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:57 pm

Muckduck wrote:It seems as if only the top 1% at BYU get looked at, but the top 50% at T3 are in the running.


FTFY.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby RVP11 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 pm

SOCRATiC wrote:Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?


IDK about CCN, but no way is top third at MVPBDCN cutting it for Skadden, much less the Cravaths, Wachtells, and S&Cs of the world.

If I were right at the top third mark after 1L, I certainly wouldn't be wasting any bids on V20 firms.
Last edited by RVP11 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Grizz » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 pm

Giving them your resume in all caps normally does the trick.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:03 pm

SOCRATiC wrote:HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?


By not posting all caps threads on TLS about it... Guess it's too late for you. Better luck next time.

BetterCallSaul
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby BetterCallSaul » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:04 pm

SOCRATiC wrote:
BetterCallSaul wrote:international students--if you mean LLMs, they are having a terrible time getting jobs at US firms right now. The timing is bad for them. If you're talking about international JD students, it all depends on the grades.


I'm going for a JD. When you say it depends on grades, does it mean that they won't be all hesitant about my work authorization problems? (I'm hoping that they have a separate human resource department that can handle this). I'm a little paranoid about this, because I've been dinged so many times after I answer "No" to the question "Are you legally authorized to work in the United States?" Even from large companies such as GM, PwC, etc.

I'm thinking though, since my fiance (A permanent residency card holder) and I will be getting married soon, would it be wise to tell law firms about an impending work permit even if they don't ask about it?


At big law firms work authorization is definitely not a problem. The hiring happens with plenty of time to work out any paperwork and I'm fairly sure that student visas allow for summer work anyway.

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Kohinoor
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:04 pm

Pretend to be a janitor or a security guard.

Renzo
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:06 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:Is there really a discernible difference between CCN and MVP for these law firms? I know this question might be a little to specific, but;; would the top third cut-off also apply to MVP and NU+Duke?


IDK about CCN, but no way is top third at MVPBDCN cutting it for Skadden, much less the Cravaths, Wachtells, and S&Cs of the world.

If I were right at the top third mark after 1L, I certainly wouldn't be wasting any bids on V20 firms.

Top third at CCN is a good line to draw, below which you are flat out wasting everyone's time for interviewing at V5 and equivalent firms. That's not to say that top third will get you one of those jobs, it just potentially makes it worth an OCI bid.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby CG614 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:14 pm

--LinkRemoved--

Renzo
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:18 pm

CG614 wrote:http://www.sulcrom.com/ataglance/?view=schools

Man, I hope whatever alt Kurama is using these days sees this. His head is going to explode when he sees UChi is closer to Rutgers than NYU in total number.

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CG614
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby CG614 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:23 pm

Renzo wrote:
CG614 wrote:http://www.sulcrom.com/ataglance/?view=schools

Man, I hope whatever alt Kurama is using these days sees this. His head is going to explode when he sees UChi is closer to Rutgers than NYU in total number.



Yeah, I mean read into it what you want, but it is interesting. I am debating NYU vs Columbia, and there is something to be said about the job placement at CLS.

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SOCRATiC
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:26 pm

BetterCallSaul wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:
BetterCallSaul wrote:international students--if you mean LLMs, they are having a terrible time getting jobs at US firms right now. The timing is bad for them. If you're talking about international JD students, it all depends on the grades.


I'm going for a JD. When you say it depends on grades, does it mean that they won't be all hesitant about my work authorization problems? (I'm hoping that they have a separate human resource department that can handle this). I'm a little paranoid about this, because I've been dinged so many times after I answer "No" to the question "Are you legally authorized to work in the United States?" Even from large companies such as GM, PwC, etc.

I'm thinking though, since my fiance (A permanent residency card holder) and I will be getting married soon, would it be wise to tell law firms about an impending work permit even if they don't ask about it?


At big law firms work authorization is definitely not a problem. The hiring happens with plenty of time to work out any paperwork and I'm fairly sure that student visas allow for summer work anyway.


+1 I'm happy to hear:D And when it comes to summer programs, yes; international students have an option called the Optional Practical Training, which permits a total of one year's worth of full-time employment.

The biggest concern, though, is this: H1B visas are issues (based on a lottery of 65,000 allowances, 15,000 of which are reserved strictly for graduate students). If I don't make it in the lottery system, then I'm legally obligated to leave the country for about a year to try to apply again the next year. This is if my work permit isn't released after my fiance and I get married (there's a pretty good chance, actually). In this dire situation, would firms be reluctant to hold onto their associates on a year-long leave of absence because of these visa issues? I'm worried that they'll just ding me, and I'm stuck in my home country with a worthless JD.

Renzo
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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby Renzo » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:30 pm

CG614 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
CG614 wrote:http://www.sulcrom.com/ataglance/?view=schools

Man, I hope whatever alt Kurama is using these days sees this. His head is going to explode when he sees UChi is closer to Rutgers than NYU in total number.



Yeah, I mean read into it what you want, but it is interesting. I am debating NYU vs Columbia, and there is something to be said about the job placement at CLS.

If you are more than 51% sure you want to go to a big firm, CLS might be the better choice (and I say that as someone who picked NYU over CLS). I really don't think the options from the two schools are different, but there's a self-selecting bias towards private work at CLS and PI work at NYU, so there will be a deeper and broader biglaw alumni network at CLS.

I would pick between those two first based on "feel" of the student body and facilities, then by specific clinics or programs that interested me, then by neighborhood, and if it was still a tie I'd decide if private practice or PI work was more likely in my future and pick accordingly.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby BetterCallSaul » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:36 pm

SOCRATiC wrote:
+1 I'm happy to hear:D And when it comes to summer programs, yes; international students have an option called the Optional Practical Training, which permits a total of one year's worth of full-time employment.

The biggest concern, though, is this: H1B visas are issues (based on a lottery of 65,000 allowances, 15,000 of which are reserved strictly for graduate students). If I don't make it in the lottery system, then I'm legally obligated to leave the country for about a year to try to apply again the next year. This is if my work permit isn't released after my fiance and I get married (there's a pretty good chance, actually). In this dire situation, would firms be reluctant to hold onto their associates on a year-long leave of absence because of these visa issues? I'm worried that they'll just ding me, and I'm stuck in my home country with a worthless JD.


Let's think this through. You are a 0L with a fiancee. Hopefully you will marry the girl within the next 3 years, which means you'll still have 1 year of OPT to use up while you wait for work auth to come through. You'll be fine. :)

Also, I hope you won't limit yourself to thinking of a future with Wachtell only--there are great big firms with international branches who might feel more secure taking a "risk" on someone whose work authorization is finite.

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Re: HOW DO YOU GET INTO ELITE LAW FIRMS?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:43 pm

BetterCallSaul wrote:
SOCRATiC wrote:
+1 I'm happy to hear:D And when it comes to summer programs, yes; international students have an option called the Optional Practical Training, which permits a total of one year's worth of full-time employment.

The biggest concern, though, is this: H1B visas are issues (based on a lottery of 65,000 allowances, 15,000 of which are reserved strictly for graduate students). If I don't make it in the lottery system, then I'm legally obligated to leave the country for about a year to try to apply again the next year. This is if my work permit isn't released after my fiance and I get married (there's a pretty good chance, actually). In this dire situation, would firms be reluctant to hold onto their associates on a year-long leave of absence because of these visa issues? I'm worried that they'll just ding me, and I'm stuck in my home country with a worthless JD.


Let's think this through. You are a 0L with a fiancee. Hopefully you will marry the girl within the next 3 years, which means you'll still have 1 year of OPT to use up while you wait for work auth to come through. You'll be fine. :)

Also, I hope you won't limit yourself to thinking of a future with Wachtell only--there are great big firms with international branches who might feel more secure taking a "risk" on someone whose work authorization is finite.


Saul Goodman? Is that you?

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