Already accepted an offer. HELP!

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edgarderby
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby edgarderby » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:18 am

gossipgirl wrote:
So it's dependent on the OP's net gain in the situation, correct? This is far different from the principles of never reneging that a lot of people espouse. For the most part, I think we're in agreement though; if the OP feels that his career prospects will increase to such a level that it outweighs any loss of trust he may suffer from the affected group, he should take the new offer.



This is exactly correct, and was my point.

In the analogy of the employer revoking an offer: obviously, that creates a greater difference in conclusion: the student has no job. In the student withdrawing scenario, the employer can easily replace him with someone also qualified, and the student has the job he prefers. Everyone wins.

Renzo
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Renzo » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:25 am

edgarderby wrote:
gossipgirl wrote:
So it's dependent on the OP's net gain in the situation, correct? This is far different from the principles of never reneging that a lot of people espouse. For the most part, I think we're in agreement though; if the OP feels that his career prospects will increase to such a level that it outweighs any loss of trust he may suffer from the affected group, he should take the new offer.



This is exactly correct, and was my point.

In the analogy of the employer revoking an offer: obviously, that creates a greater difference in conclusion: the student has no job. In the student withdrawing scenario, the employer can easily replace him with someone also qualified, and the student has the job he prefers. Everyone wins.

It's not quite that simple. There are search costs for the employer, and the fact that all the "good" candidates will probably be taken when the employer goes back to fill the job. It's not win-win, and the employer will be pissed to have to repeat the candidate search.

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voice of reason
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby voice of reason » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:35 am

edgarderby wrote: ... even under a "common good" analysis, OP should take the job he wants the most. The employer isn't going to care as much as the OP is going to be happier. And then someone else will get his other job, so there is no net loss of happiness.

I don't see the downside here. Unless when you change your mind, you use racial slurs targeted at original offeror.


As an employer, I'd be irritated and very inconvenienced if somebody reversed their decision after accepting my offer. By that point I would have notified the other applicants that they'd been rejected. I'd have to re-open the job search. It would make me look bad within my organization for having made an offer to a no-show, and it would be embarrassing to deal with other applicants who asked why the search was re-opened after I'd sent them a rejection letter. (I realize many employers don't bother with rejection letters; these employers lack common courtesy.) I probably would not consider the backed-out applicant for jobs in the future, either.

I'm not saying one must never back out of an accepted offer. I'd apologetically back out of a job at 7-11 to become Solicitor General. But in general it's a no-no.

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gossipgirl
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby gossipgirl » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:36 am

Renzo wrote:
edgarderby wrote:
gossipgirl wrote:
So it's dependent on the OP's net gain in the situation, correct? This is far different from the principles of never reneging that a lot of people espouse. For the most part, I think we're in agreement though; if the OP feels that his career prospects will increase to such a level that it outweighs any loss of trust he may suffer from the affected group, he should take the new offer.



This is exactly correct, and was my point.

In the analogy of the employer revoking an offer: obviously, that creates a greater difference in conclusion: the student has no job. In the student withdrawing scenario, the employer can easily replace him with someone also qualified, and the student has the job he prefers. Everyone wins.

It's not quite that simple. There are search costs for the employer, and the fact that all the "good" candidates will probably be taken when the employer goes back to fill the job. It's not win-win, and the employer will be pissed to have to repeat the candidate search.


Maybe in a regular economy. In this economy especially, there are many "good" candidates available. Overall though, it does suck for the employer but it depends on what kind of employer it is (Are you dissing the SCOTUS or Mr. Small Time Divorce Lawyer). At the end of the day, you live one life, just do what you want to do...

chitown825
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby chitown825 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:13 am

Time to go off topic with a quick question. Do 1L summers recommendations/references matter at 2L OCI? (e.g. 1L summer employer really wants you to stay, but you don't...)

Anonymous User
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:23 am

OP here. This thread has been extremely helpful. Lots of good points.

Here's what I decided - I stuck with the first offer, and politely turned down the second (but expressed interest in any future opportunities).

Some reasons why, which all came from this thread:
1) Legal community is smaller than one would think
2) Why start off career with my word not meaning anything
3) The payoff would not be that substantial. Whether or not the second job would be better is really subjective - one employer could think so, and the next could disagree, so it might not be worth sacrificing my reputation/character.
4) It would put the first employer in a terrible spot, and I wouldn't want my offer retracted after I'd given up the job hunt.
5) It just felt dirty. Dirty, yet tempting. :D

Thanks everyone!

Renzo
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Renzo » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. This thread has been extremely helpful. Lots of good points.

Here's what I decided - I stuck with the first offer, and politely turned down the second (but expressed interest in any future opportunities).

Some reasons why, which all came from this thread:
1) Legal community is smaller than one would think
2) Why start off career with my word not meaning anything
3) The payoff would not be that substantial. Whether or not the second job would be better is really subjective - one employer could think so, and the next could disagree, so it might not be worth sacrificing my reputation/character.
4) It would put the first employer in a terrible spot, and I wouldn't want my offer retracted after I'd given up the job hunt.
5) It just felt dirty. Dirty, yet tempting. :D

Thanks everyone!

Solid move. It tells both employers you are a person who can be trusted to honor a commitment, and you expressed how much you liked the second. Now both will consider you in the future, and will have good things to say if they say anything at all (as opposed to having one employer think poorly of you).

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kn6542
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby kn6542 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:14 am

underdawg wrote:don't retract

yes, employers sometimes revoke job offers. while what is good for the goose is good for the gander, in this case, the gander can kick the goose's ass...or is it the other way around...wtf is a gander anyway?

never mind. in any case, 1L job is not hugely important, and wouldn't it be nice to just take the job you accepted and not have to worry about any future backlash that might or might not come?

Yeah, bleeball is right. That firms sometimes retract doesn't mean you can get away with it. It's not an equal position of power at all. And people do talk, word can get around, and it's not a great idea to tarnish yourself like that when it really won't matter in the long run.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:06 am

Jesus Christ. Why do we keep having these conversations?

A: Use the bloody search function; it will inform you that
B: It would not be an understatement to say that pulling idiocy like the OPs proposal can, in fact, ruin your career.

Also, just to emphasize something Beta said in the last "should I reject an offer I already accepted":

0Ls GTFO the employment board.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:58 am

To update, I really am curious if the legal community is more petty than the world at large. Do you really believe this? Or is this thread driven by 22 year olds who have never had a real job before? (I know, I know. You're 24). I cannot imagine an industry working under the principals that those on here espoused.

I agree with OP, though, that he has little to lose by doing what he was done, and everything to gain. Again, 0L here who has no legal experience (never even consulted an attorney), but I have worked in several industries, as has my wife. The feeling around has been that employers understood you have to take the best opportunity available, and that as long as you handled it properly, no one was really going to hold it against you. Is the legal field really that different? I can't stop it from sounding sarcastic, although I wonder. I'm hoping to operate in this field and I should know if it's more sensitive than other professional fields.

legends159
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby legends159 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:20 am

The fact of the matter is that this is a 1L position. As a 1L you are the absolute BOTTOM of any totem pole regardless of where you go. Think of it as a favor, that whoever hires you is opening up office space for you. I cannot stress how little a 1L can contribute especially ITE where there are lines of 2Ls, 3Ls and out of work attorneys who are trying desperately to get legal experience.

Yes you can work for free and yes you can do menial labor...but you don't want to as a law student with a whole year of law school under your belt (every law student has a sense of entitlement). And organizations know you don't. Which means they have to go out of their way to give you projects and try and keep you stimulated and maybe teach you a thing or two over the summer.

So in summary, it's not pettiness. It's that 1Ls shouldn't feel entitled to stuff. You accepted the offer, now do the best job you can.

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underdawg
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby underdawg » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:10 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:To update, I really am curious if the legal community is more petty than the world at large. Do you really believe this? Or is this thread driven by 22 year olds who have never had a real job before? (I know, I know. You're 24). I cannot imagine an industry working under the principals that those on here espoused.

ok you must not go to law school....

and as they say, 0L GTFO

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:34 am

Seriously, can we just make it a rule and be done with it?

Danneskjöld
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Danneskjöld » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:55 am

Wow this is an unbelievable thread... Taking the second offer would probably violate your school's honor code (I know it 100% would at my school). The employer will probably notify your career services office, and you'd be sunk once anyone at your school knows. Not to mention the fact that people will find out and like someone else said the legal world is small and people will judge you. In addition, 2L OCI does not depend on your 1L job. It depends on School, grades and personal likeability--that's it.

/Thread

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edgarderby
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby edgarderby » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:39 pm

Danneskjöld wrote:Wow this is an unbelievable thread... Taking the second offer would probably violate your school's honor code (I know it 100% would at my school). The employer will probably notify your career services office, and you'd be sunk once anyone at your school knows. Not to mention the fact that people will find out and like someone else said the legal world is small and people will judge you. In addition, 2L OCI does not depend on your 1L job. It depends on School, grades and personal likeability--that's it.

/Thread


So, wouldn't it be easier just to ask employer 1 if they would care or not? By simply bringing that up, it seems like they would let you out of it. I think people are exaggerating their self-importance to employers, in any economy or job, but especially this one.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:46 pm

edgarderby wrote:
Danneskjöld wrote:Wow this is an unbelievable thread... Taking the second offer would probably violate your school's honor code (I know it 100% would at my school). The employer will probably notify your career services office, and you'd be sunk once anyone at your school knows. Not to mention the fact that people will find out and like someone else said the legal world is small and people will judge you. In addition, 2L OCI does not depend on your 1L job. It depends on School, grades and personal likeability--that's it.

/Thread


So, wouldn't it be easier just to ask employer 1 if they would care or not? By simply bringing that up, it seems like they would let you out of it. I think people are exaggerating their self-importance to employers, in any economy or job, but especially this one.


...

LOL

I'm pretty sure this was a serious statement, and that fact makes my head explode.

By the way: Employers don't give a fuck about you personally. That doesn't mean that they're not going to curbstomp you if you pull the idiocy the OP suggests.

Do people just not understand that the 1L/2L summer gig-firm relationship is NOT AT ALL the same as a regular employment relationship? I get the distinct impression that people are somehow considering the ideas as equivalent, and that's just laughably incorrect.

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edgarderby
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby edgarderby » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:57 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
edgarderby wrote:
Danneskjöld wrote:Wow this is an unbelievable thread... Taking the second offer would probably violate your school's honor code (I know it 100% would at my school). The employer will probably notify your career services office, and you'd be sunk once anyone at your school knows. Not to mention the fact that people will find out and like someone else said the legal world is small and people will judge you. In addition, 2L OCI does not depend on your 1L job. It depends on School, grades and personal likeability--that's it.

/Thread


So, wouldn't it be easier just to ask employer 1 if they would care or not? By simply bringing that up, it seems like they would let you out of it. I think people are exaggerating their self-importance to employers, in any economy or job, but especially this one.


...

LOL

I'm pretty sure this was a serious statement, and that fact makes my head explode.

By the way: Employers don't give a fuck about you personally. That doesn't mean that they're not going to curbstomp you if you pull the idiocy the OP suggests.

Do people just not understand that the 1L/2L summer gig-firm relationship is NOT AT ALL the same as a regular employment relationship? I get the distinct impression that people are somehow considering the ideas as equivalent, and that's just laughably incorrect.


A federal clerk told me, upon giving me an internship offer, "judicial internship are not the same as clerkships, by all means, if you get a paying offer, take it...we won't hold it against you." He said that people often mistake that "rule" as applying to everything, and not just clerkships since they are more important.

I'm sure you have some rationale for believing that people are petty and will destroy you over something that affects them to little to no extent. That kind of thing might be true where other people are from, but I haven't run into any non-anecdotal "friend of a friend of a friend" stories.

It makes no rational sense that if I called my employer and honestly described my want of taking a different job, months away from starting the job, where they have 100s of other qualified candidates ready happy to accept at a moments notice, that they would "ruin my career."

I completely understand why this myth exists though. It's good for the schools to create a culture of fear surrounding thinking about the good of the community rather than the good of the self. Although I would also imagine this in itself is flawed, because taking job B increases the chances that job A will go to a classmate as well, especially regarding a regional position.

Renzo
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Renzo » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:48 pm

edgarderby wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
edgarderby wrote:
Danneskjöld wrote:Wow this is an unbelievable thread... Taking the second offer would probably violate your school's honor code (I know it 100% would at my school). The employer will probably notify your career services office, and you'd be sunk once anyone at your school knows. Not to mention the fact that people will find out and like someone else said the legal world is small and people will judge you. In addition, 2L OCI does not depend on your 1L job. It depends on School, grades and personal likeability--that's it.

/Thread


So, wouldn't it be easier just to ask employer 1 if they would care or not? By simply bringing that up, it seems like they would let you out of it. I think people are exaggerating their self-importance to employers, in any economy or job, but especially this one.


...

LOL

I'm pretty sure this was a serious statement, and that fact makes my head explode.

By the way: Employers don't give a fuck about you personally. That doesn't mean that they're not going to curbstomp you if you pull the idiocy the OP suggests.

Do people just not understand that the 1L/2L summer gig-firm relationship is NOT AT ALL the same as a regular employment relationship? I get the distinct impression that people are somehow considering the ideas as equivalent, and that's just laughably incorrect.


A federal clerk told me, upon giving me an internship offer, "judicial internship are not the same as clerkships, by all means, if you get a paying offer, take it...we won't hold it against you." He said that people often mistake that "rule" as applying to everything, and not just clerkships since they are more important.

I'm sure you have some rationale for believing that people are petty and will destroy you over something that affects them to little to no extent. That kind of thing might be true where other people are from, but I haven't run into any non-anecdotal "friend of a friend of a friend" stories.

It makes no rational sense that if I called my employer and honestly described my want of taking a different job, months away from starting the job, where they have 100s of other qualified candidates ready happy to accept at a moments notice, that they would "ruin my career."

I completely understand why this myth exists though. It's good for the schools to create a culture of fear surrounding thinking about the good of the community rather than the good of the self. Although I would also imagine this in itself is flawed, because taking job B increases the chances that job A will go to a classmate as well, especially regarding a regional position.

You are over-thinking this. Bottom line is it's rude not to follow through on your word, including such things as agreeing to a job.

Is there ever a reason to do it? Yes. Is it illegal or unethical? No. Anyone thinking about reneging on a job they've taken should ask themselves, "is it worth the cost to my reputation?"

Renzo
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Renzo » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:50 pm

Oh yeah, and

underdawg wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:


and as they say, 0L GTFO

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:43 am

Renzo wrote:Oh yeah, and

underdawg wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:


and as they say, 0L GTFO


This made me L0L. Granted, I would defer to the judgement of those in law school. Some of them seem to have the professional experience of an angry boy, sent to bed without dinner.

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underdawg
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Re: Already accepted an offer. HELP!

Postby underdawg » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:50 pm

that's exactly my point, dumbass. if any field is gonna have petty people, it's this one.

once you go to law school, i swear you will understand...




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