shit law

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roguey
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Re: shit law

Postby roguey » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:59 pm

Ryanner20 wrote:
shepdawg wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know I'm reviving a dead thread, but it's relevant.

Is this shitlaw? http://www.cianolaw.com/

Looks like a solo practice. My personal feeling is that any job that pays, puts food in my kids' bellies. Who cares what some rich kid labels it as?


I concur. These days, a job is a job.


Agreed. My opinion is that as long as you like what you are doing and you can survive doing it, then go for it. I have known many solo-practitioners who have done very very well and were successful enough on their own to go into big law but chose not to. Big firms practice many "shit law" areas and need people who know them well. I am mostly speaking from experience with immigration attorneys, but I know several who had solo firms, then went into big law, and then got right back out when they realized it sucked. People on here don't seem to realize that the legal profession is not as strict and closed-off as they think it is. Success is not only measured by one's ability to get an SA with a hugely awesome-tacular firm for 2L summer. And that SA is not the only way into a big firm evar. My opinion is that being good at and liking what you do is more important than the name and size of the place where you do it.

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Bronte
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Re: shit law

Postby Bronte » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:25 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:does this look like aht people call 'shit law' firm
http://www.wcclaw.com/


I don't know what you mean. It seems fine.

I will say I only think of that term as applying to students who finish law school and start their own firms.

No matter what you think or what people tell you, no recent grad is prepared to practice on their own. They're simply not.

Some people choose smaller firms on purpose.

For example, if I chose NLJ250, I would be specialized quickly and would only deal with a 2-3 areas (that were probably related).

If I chose a smaller firm, I would be able to work in probably 8-10 different areas (many of which unrelated).

The pro for the former is the pay, the con is that if that area fades away (due to downsizing, less business in that area, etc.), I'm toast.

The pro for the latter is being versatile, the con is that I may never make a ton of money (but it's very possible).


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Anonymous User
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Re: shit law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:48 pm

How about this guy? Folks from Philly have probably seen his ads plastered all over SEPTA:

http://www.justin-bieber-law.com/

Recent Widener grad focusing on personal injury....funny article about his unfortunate namesake: http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia ... r&page=all

:lol:

MrAnon
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Re: shit law

Postby MrAnon » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:55 pm

Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.

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Re: shit law

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:20 pm

MrAnon wrote:Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.


So...
Law + everyday people = shit law
Banking + everyday people = shit banking
Law + corporations = not shit law
Banking + corporations = not shit banking

-law & -banking from all sides, and you seem to be saying that:
everyday people = shit
corporations = not shit

I don't know. I just can't really get behind that. What is so horrible about helping "everyday people"? You know that corporations dodge bills too, right?

sebastian0622
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Re: shit law

Postby sebastian0622 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:26 pm

MrAnon wrote:Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.


I'd rather work with "people paying out of their own pockets" if it means meeting the client, doing something very important in their eyes, and taking on responsibility for the whole case or at least big portions of it than I would work on one small portion of a gigantic corporate case, serving various client representatives who don't feel like they have time to talk to me, and fighting over millions of dollars for billionaire companies. And this isn't political: I'm a conservative. It's just about boredom.

MrAnon
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Re: shit law

Postby MrAnon » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.


So...
Law + everyday people = shit law
Banking + everyday people = shit banking
Law + corporations = not shit law
Banking + corporations = not shit banking

-law & -banking from all sides, and you seem to be saying that:
everyday people = shit
corporations = not shit

I don't know. I just can't really get behind that. What is so horrible about helping "everyday people"? You know that corporations dodge bills too, right?




It has to do with ability and willingness to pay. Everyday people you meet in the street have limited capacity. Corporations do not. Its rare that a biglaw clients absolutely just won't pay its bill. In virtually all such cases the company either has gone bankrupt (often law firm will still collect) or else is claiming malpractice.

MrAnon
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Re: shit law

Postby MrAnon » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:43 pm

sebastian0622 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.


I'd rather work with "people paying out of their own pockets" if it means meeting the client, doing something very important in their eyes, and taking on responsibility for the whole case or at least big portions of it than I would work on one small portion of a gigantic corporate case, serving various client representatives who don't feel like they have time to talk to me, and fighting over millions of dollars for billionaire companies. And this isn't political: I'm a conservative. It's just about boredom.


There is definitely some joy in serving clients who have no one else to turn to. On the other hand, if they can't pay, or don't want to pay, or want to press a claim that is unreasonable, or they lie to you, or they are crazy and just using the law to be vindictive, then where does that leave you. Its popular to say that large corporations are distasteful, but having a relationship with in-house counsel from a company can be quite fulfilling. Often times, they will be former lawyers from your firm and they are quite experienced in the field. Also they made a choice to leave firm life behind, so they are somewhat more pleasant than your average law firm lifer. And they are happy to talk to you, but it only makes sense for them to liason with the partner, not the junior associates. can you blame them for not having time to reach out to every associate on their case? They are not evil people, they are just the same as you. They probably have more scruples about maintaining their reputations in the field than the average lawyer you will come up against in shitlaw who will lie cheat and steal to win a small case. If they lose millions of dollars for their big client, well, sometimes that happens, their livelihoods don't depends on one case, and sometimes the cases are losers and they are just seeking the best outcome possible.

sebastian0622
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Re: shit law

Postby sebastian0622 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:07 am

MrAnon wrote:
sebastian0622 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Shitlaw is making many appearances in court, dealing with lots of personal injury plaintiffs, dealing with clients who won't pay or can't pay, not being able to sit in a comfy a/c or heated office all day.

Many law students go into the field because they think it is their ticket into the corporate world somehow. When you are left dealing with people paying out of their own pockets for legal services then you are left in shitlaw.

A good analogy is the banking industry. Say you want to be a banker. The people who go to the best schools and do really well get to work in Goldman Sachs. The people who don't have all that become bank tellers and branch floor managers. In both cases, still banking. But in the latter you are dealing with everyday clients day in and day out.


I'd rather work with "people paying out of their own pockets" if it means meeting the client, doing something very important in their eyes, and taking on responsibility for the whole case or at least big portions of it than I would work on one small portion of a gigantic corporate case, serving various client representatives who don't feel like they have time to talk to me, and fighting over millions of dollars for billionaire companies. And this isn't political: I'm a conservative. It's just about boredom.


There is definitely some joy in serving clients who have no one else to turn to. On the other hand, if they can't pay, or don't want to pay, or want to press a claim that is unreasonable, or they lie to you, or they are crazy and just using the law to be vindictive, then where does that leave you. Its popular to say that large corporations are distasteful, but having a relationship with in-house counsel from a company can be quite fulfilling. Often times, they will be former lawyers from your firm and they are quite experienced in the field. Also they made a choice to leave firm life behind, so they are somewhat more pleasant than your average law firm lifer. And they are happy to talk to you, but it only makes sense for them to liason with the partner, not the junior associates. can you blame them for not having time to reach out to every associate on their case? They are not evil people, they are just the same as you. They probably have more scruples about maintaining their reputations in the field than the average lawyer you will come up against in shitlaw who will lie cheat and steal to win a small case. If they lose millions of dollars for their big client, well, sometimes that happens, their livelihoods don't depends on one case, and sometimes the cases are losers and they are just seeking the best outcome possible.


I agree, they have good reason to not give a fuck about you as an associate. But the point still stands that there are a miniscule number of fucks given about you as an associate.

At the small firm I worked for, billing was the office manager's job, not an attorney's job. While I know there were some folks who didn't pay, the vast majority did, and the bottom line is that all the attorneys made decent money. In other words, this issue is probably being overblown.

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Re: shit law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:25 am

OP - You are incredibly pretentious for making this thread.

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Bronte
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Re: shit law

Postby Bronte » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:Law + everyday people = shit law
Banking + everyday people = shit banking
Law + corporations = not shit law
Banking + corporations = not shit banking

-law & -banking from all sides, and you seem to be saying that:
everyday people = shit
corporations = not shit

I don't know. I just can't really get behind that. What is so horrible about helping "everyday people"? You know that corporations dodge bills too, right?


I understand that you were just paraphrasing what the poster above said, but law + everday people does not equal shitlaw. Shitlaw, although I don't prescribe to that pejorative term, is low-level private criminal defense (think DUIs etc.), private consumer bankruptcy work, insurance defense (which involves representing corporations, not consumers), low-level personal injury work, low-level divorce law, etc.

The reason this work is not as desirable is not because you represent everyday people. It's because it involves the most menial and redundant tasks, it pays like crap, and it involves wrestling money out of clients. Working for individuals can be very rewarding, even in so-called shitlaw, but especially in public defense and other PI work. On the other hand, working for large institutions can be menial and redundant.

However, at top law firms, despite what the cynics say, there is the opportunity to work on novel issues, solving complex problems, and getting paid well. It's also a major boon to your resume and provides the opportunity to exit into a wide variety of fields, including in-house work and high-level government work.

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roguey
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Re: shit law

Postby roguey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:33 am

sebastian0622 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:There is definitely some joy in serving clients who have no one else to turn to. On the other hand, if they can't pay, or don't want to pay, or want to press a claim that is unreasonable, or they lie to you, or they are crazy and just using the law to be vindictive, then where does that leave you. Its popular to say that large corporations are distasteful, but having a relationship with in-house counsel from a company can be quite fulfilling. Often times, they will be former lawyers from your firm and they are quite experienced in the field. Also they made a choice to leave firm life behind, so they are somewhat more pleasant than your average law firm lifer. And they are happy to talk to you, but it only makes sense for them to liason with the partner, not the junior associates. can you blame them for not having time to reach out to every associate on their case? They are not evil people, they are just the same as you. They probably have more scruples about maintaining their reputations in the field than the average lawyer you will come up against in shitlaw who will lie cheat and steal to win a small case. If they lose millions of dollars for their big client, well, sometimes that happens, their livelihoods don't depends on one case, and sometimes the cases are losers and they are just seeking the best outcome possible.


I agree, they have good reason to not give a fuck about you as an associate. But the point still stands that there are a miniscule number of fucks given about you as an associate.

At the small firm I worked for, billing was the office manager's job, not an attorney's job. While I know there were some folks who didn't pay, the vast majority did, and the bottom line is that all the attorneys made decent money. In other words, this issue is probably being overblown.


I worked for a solo-practitioner in an immigration firm. We also had an office manager that did the billing and took the payments. I was paid well as were the office manager and the attorney. We also had an accountant that kept up with all the records and such. Yes, there were clients who didn't pay, and we would sell the debt to a collection agent. Generally the clients wouldn't lie (unless another immigration attorney had told them to in the past), and they were genuinely thankful for the work we did. We had a great office, great client referrals, and we only took the cases the attorney wanted to take. I have also worked at a firm that dealt exclusively with businesses, and I have to say it is almost impossible to get the person you need on the phone. Once you do, they never want to talk to you and often seem like it is beneath them to deal with anyone but the person whose name is in the firm's title. Of course, that could just be my experience. I have never found a large corporation easy to deal with. Small businesses always seemed to be eager to get me the documents I needed and would actually have the information I needed to do the work for them. I guess what I am saying is that, to me, it is better when the individuals you are working with have a stake in what you are doing for them. What is known as "shit law" seems to refer to the areas of law where the cases matter most to the individuals involved.

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Re: shit law

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:41 am


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BruceWayne
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Re: shit law

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:05 pm

Has anyone had luck with these smaller firms in terms of applying as a 3L? What are some of the keys to landing these positions? I assume that having a specific demonstrated interest in a practice area that the firm works in would be useful.

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2LsAPlenty
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Re: shit law

Postby 2LsAPlenty » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:27 pm

You guys crack me up. 90% of the law school class (absent the T14) would die to get into a firm like that and most of those don't have a chance. That is not shit law and they seem to have a pretty sophisticated practice. Shit law is high volume divorce, Chapter 7 and 13 bankruptcy, blue collar criminal, general practice for individuals, collection and other similar firms.

Anonymous User
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Re: shit law

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:34 pm

This most definitely isn't shitlaw.




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