Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:24 pm

A'nold wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
nealric wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that people below the median were stupid; only that law school is a very rare place in that people dont seem to accept that higher grades naturally lead to more job opportunities.


Really? I've never seen more grade obsession from people other than law students.


It's true. I can't remember the last 24 hour period in which I didn't think about grades, and I know I am very, very far from alone. Every time I want to go out, I am reminded of what I should be doing instead, and I don't even want a biglaw job.


Haha, for some reason I read your post as "everytime I want to put out..." I had to do a double take.

Yeah, I can't remember a span of 10 minutes where I have not thought about law school, grades, careers, transfering, law review, etc. in the past like year, but then again I am obsessive.


At least we know where your mind is tonight!

I am obsessive too, though. About school, I mean. I am going to do well in property and torts. I have to, because there is no plan b.

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A'nold
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby A'nold » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:30 pm

A'nold wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
nealric wrote:

Really? I've never seen more grade obsession from people other than law students.


It's true. I can't remember the last 24 hour period in which I didn't think about grades, and I know I am very, very far from alone. Every time I want to go out, I am reminded of what I should be doing instead, and I don't even want a biglaw job.


Haha, for some reason I read your post as "everytime I want to put out..." I had to do a double take.

Yeah, I can't remember a span of 10 minutes where I have not thought about law school, grades, careers, transfering, law review, etc. in the past like year, but then again I am obsessive.


At least we know where your mind is tonight!

I am obsessive too, though. About school, I mean. I am going to do well in property and torts. I have to, because there is no plan b.


Yeah, I must be missing my wife (she's out of town). :wink:

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ruleser
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby ruleser » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:40 pm

englawyer wrote:
ruleser wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

Ding ding ding.

This is no downturn, this is the result of the third-worlding of america by conservative economics. Jobs are overseas and we know why - it hasnr been fixed, so how would the economy improve?


while many jobs have been shipped overseas, shareholders, their money/capital and profits for the most part have stayed here. when Apple sells Ipods, the profit recipients are for the most part American and the managers/decision makers are still here.

the overseas trend shouldn't impact high-end professional service firms that much, because the institutional clients will still be American and will still want to hire the best of the best. top law firms have thus far been able to convince corporations and whatnot that paying "a little extra" for their services is worth more than commodity legal work. otherwise those clients would just hire the joe-schmoe firms of the world and/or outsource legal work.

the people getting screwed in all of this are those that used to work for American corporations in America (working class and middle class) who now have no job options.

2/3 of the economy is consumer spending - when jobs go overseas, would-be consumers don't have cash, that 2/3 of the economy collapses, all tiers get hit.

For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:50 pm

A'nold wrote:Yeah, I must be missing my wife (she's out of town). :wink:


Lulz, it's okay. I posted some interesting things in the "top 10% at CLS or median at Yale" thread, but in my defense, I was delirious from writing my brief.

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Unemployed
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Unemployed » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:55 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
A'nold wrote:Yeah, I must be missing my wife (she's out of town). :wink:


Lulz, it's okay. I posted some interesting things in the "top 10% at CLS or median at Yale" thread, but in my defense, I was delirious from writing my brief.


You sure were. :twisted:

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Unemployed » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:00 am

Firms have a history of overreacting... They cut too many people during the downturn, which creates a huge demand when the economy comes around (resulting in over-hiring and salary wars), which in turn creates a huge surplus of unnecessary lawyers during the next downturn, which creates huge demands....

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:19 am

ruleser wrote:For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.


Ah yes, so free trade is to blame for the economic collapse?

This is comedy. Do you actually think you know what you're talking about, or are you just trolling the party line? Because if it's the latter, there's hope. But if it's the former, I really worry for you. You know, once you realize that our manufacturing sector disappeared in part because it was coddled for so long that it eventually lost the ability to compete. And that the natural evolution of economies dictates movement towards a dominant tertiary [service] sector, and the reason that so many people are jobless is because we continued subsidizing domestic industry which incentivized settling for those types of jobs when it was only a matter of time that they would be outsourced. Or that our uncontrollable spending habit had absolutely zilch to do with free trade and everything to do with our society's insatiable greed and desire to be coddled by the nanny state.
Last edited by los blancos on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

09042014
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:24 am

Also free trade is bipartisan.

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los blancos
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:28 am

Desert Fox wrote:Also free trade is bipartisan.


Well now you now have dolts on both sides of the spectrum now calling for tariffs and trade barriers and all sorts of useless drivel because it helps them get reelected. Protectionism has always been politically tenable, it just likes to lurk in the shadows and its effects only show retroactively.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby englawyer » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:32 am

los blancos wrote:
ruleser wrote:For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.


Ah yes, so free trade is to blame for the economic collapse?

This is comedy. Do you actually think you know what you're talking about, or are you just trolling the party line? Because if it's the latter, there's hope. But if it's the former, I really worry for you. You know, once you realize that our manufacturing sector disappeared in part because it was coddled for so long that it eventually lost the ability to compete. And that the natural evolution of economies dictates movement towards a dominant tertiary [service] sector, and the reason that so many people are jobless is because we continued subsidizing domestic industry which incentivized settling for those types of jobs when it was only a matter of time that they would be outsourced. Or that our uncontrollable spending habit had absolutely zilch to do with free trade and everything to do with our society's insatiable greed and desire to be coddled by the nanny state.


this sounds a bit too ayn randish. you do realize that not everyone can become a lawyer or mgmt consultant right? we will need to drastically expand the welfare state to accommodate the vast unskilled majority as we move ever faster towards the singularity.

technology/outsourcing is leading us to a winners-take-all society where shareholders/mgrs/lawyers/etc have all the cash and spending power, and the rest of the society lives off the govt. teat.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby JazzOne » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:41 am

A'nold wrote:I can't remember a span of 10 minutes where I have not thought about law school, grades, careers, transfering, law review, etc. in the past like year, but then again I am obsessive.

+1

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los blancos
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:43 am

englawyer wrote:
los blancos wrote:
ruleser wrote:For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.


Ah yes, so free trade is to blame for the economic collapse?

This is comedy. Do you actually think you know what you're talking about, or are you just trolling the party line? Because if it's the latter, there's hope. But if it's the former, I really worry for you. You know, once you realize that our manufacturing sector disappeared in part because it was coddled for so long that it eventually lost the ability to compete. And that the natural evolution of economies dictates movement towards a dominant tertiary [service] sector, and the reason that so many people are jobless is because we continued subsidizing domestic industry which incentivized settling for those types of jobs when it was only a matter of time that they would be outsourced. Or that our uncontrollable spending habit had absolutely zilch to do with free trade and everything to do with our society's insatiable greed and desire to be coddled by the nanny state.


this sounds a bit too ayn randish. you do realize that not everyone can become a lawyer or mgmt consultant right? we will need to drastically expand the welfare state to accommodate the vast unskilled majority as we move ever faster towards the singularity.

technology/outsourcing is leading us to a winners-take-all society where shareholders/mgrs/lawyers/etc have all the cash and spending power, and the rest of the society lives off the govt. teat.


We don't need everyone to become a lawyer or management consultant. In every economy there will always be unemployment and there should be a welfare apparatus to help those people (different than the way ours is run today because it incentivizes destructive behavior). I am not arguing for an all-out outsourcing of every single manufacturing job in the country. My argument is that government coddling of industry through the '80s ultimately ruined the competitiveness of the American industrial sector and is largely to blame for its demise. You can only outsource so much of your production - there seems to be this misconception that you can just ship everything overseas and profit, and that's not the case. Even if it was, we would simply be able to focus more on our comparative advantages (technology, services, etc), and the labor market would balance the equation out. Even given open borders there is still a remarkable natural resilience to domestic trade - this has been well-documented empirically, ESPECIALLY when there's an elasticity of substitution.

In a nutshell, blaming the recession on free trade is just foolish.
Last edited by los blancos on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Xiaolong
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Xiaolong » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:43 am

Aeroplane wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Disclaimer: I did not read the thread, and my point has probabaly been made already

Aeroplane wrote:Interesting - I thought this year was supposed to have been the upswing, but I guess not.



lolwut?

Everyone and their uncle knew that the C/O 2011 was going to get murdered at OCI this year. Mayer Brown-Chicago hired 11 people, for christ's sake. They normally take well over 50

Eh, ok. I was only speaking for myself, not everyone and their uncle. I was under the impression that this year would not be as bad as last. It's mostly irrelevant for me personally, so I have the luxury of being misinformed.


Actually we don't know what this year will look like when the C/o 2012 does OCI. The data underlying the article is from OCI 09.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Herb Watchfell » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:44 am

A'nold wrote:I can't remember a span of 10 minutes where I have not thought about law school, grades, careers, transfering, law review, etc. in the past like year, but then again I am obese.


yes you are

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Xiaolong » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:49 am

JazzOne wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.


This seems reasonable, but every time the economy goes south people jump on this bandwagon (different reasons, same idea, the economy is permanently changing), and every time they are wrong.

I was interviewing for a firm job two days ago, and the discussion turned to the economy and the bottleneck of attorneys currently waiting on the sidelines. The interviewer opined that it would take years to work through this glut, and I countered that this might represent a permanent shift in the field. Sadly, he didn't disagree. I think things will get better, but I also think it will be wise for firms to reevaluate their prior ITE hiring practices going forward.


Absolutely nothing is going to change with regards to hiring practices IMO. Just recently due to opposition from law firms the proposal to postpone OCI until January was not implemented.

Its just that every time there is a crisis people think fundamental overhauls of the system as a whole will take place. Does anyone really think Wall Street is going to change? I assume the answer is no for most people. As such, I think that the overall business model of law firms will not change dramatically either.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:54 am

Xiaolong wrote: Does anyone really think Wall Street is going to change? I assume the answer is no for most people. As such, I think that the overall business model of law firms will not change dramatically either.


Wall Street may have to change whether or not it wants to. It's very clear that the way things were run before the recession is untenable in the long run. That said, our practice of bailing these firms out when we should have let them face the consequences of their actions probably means they'll be up to the same shenanigans soon enough.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Xiaolong » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:03 am

los blancos wrote:
ruleser wrote:For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.


Ah yes, so free trade is to blame for the economic collapse?

This is comedy. Do you actually think you know what you're talking about, or are you just trolling the party line? Because if it's the latter, there's hope. But if it's the former, I really worry for you. You know, once you realize that our manufacturing sector disappeared in part because it was coddled for so long that it eventually lost the ability to compete. And that the natural evolution of economies dictates movement towards a dominant tertiary [service] sector, and the reason that so many people are jobless is because we continued subsidizing domestic industry which incentivized settling for those types of jobs when it was only a matter of time that they would be outsourced. Or that our uncontrollable spending habit had absolutely zilch to do with free trade and everything to do with our society's insatiable greed and desire to be coddled by the nanny state.


The story seems to be a little more complicated than that and a lot of people make that mistake. Manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP had been relatively stable over the last 50 years in the US. What has changed though, dramatically even, is the number of people employed in manufacturing, which has been declining for the last 50 years. So it is wrong to claim that manufacturing disappeared, its just that worker productivity increased and manufactuiring has shifted into high technology sectors.

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los blancos
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:05 am

Xiaolong wrote:
los blancos wrote:
ruleser wrote:For other poster, seriously? Conservatives sold us free trade - from what planet your 'protectionism' comment comes from not sure, but enjoy it up there - when you rejoin reality, enjoy the conservatives who downsized/free traded/outsourced/undercut us into collapse.


Ah yes, so free trade is to blame for the economic collapse?

This is comedy. Do you actually think you know what you're talking about, or are you just trolling the party line? Because if it's the latter, there's hope. But if it's the former, I really worry for you. You know, once you realize that our manufacturing sector disappeared in part because it was coddled for so long that it eventually lost the ability to compete. And that the natural evolution of economies dictates movement towards a dominant tertiary [service] sector, and the reason that so many people are jobless is because we continued subsidizing domestic industry which incentivized settling for those types of jobs when it was only a matter of time that they would be outsourced. Or that our uncontrollable spending habit had absolutely zilch to do with free trade and everything to do with our society's insatiable greed and desire to be coddled by the nanny state.


The story seems to be a little more complicated than that and a lot of people make that mistake. Manufacturing output as a percentage of GDP had been relatively stable over the last 50 years in the US. What has changed though, dramatically even, is the number of people employed in manufacturing, which has been declining for the last 50 years. So it is wrong to claim that manufacturing disappeared, its just that worker productivity increased and manufactuiring has shifted into high technology sectors.


Actually, the number of people has stayed relatively constant - it's just that they declined as a portion of the population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindustri ... ted_States

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby JazzOne » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:03 am

Xiaolong wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.


This seems reasonable, but every time the economy goes south people jump on this bandwagon (different reasons, same idea, the economy is permanently changing), and every time they are wrong.

I was interviewing for a firm job two days ago, and the discussion turned to the economy and the bottleneck of attorneys currently waiting on the sidelines. The interviewer opined that it would take years to work through this glut, and I countered that this might represent a permanent shift in the field. Sadly, he didn't disagree. I think things will get better, but I also think it will be wise for firms to reevaluate their prior ITE hiring practices going forward.


Absolutely nothing is going to change with regards to hiring practices IMO. Just recently due to opposition from law firms the proposal to postpone OCI until January was not implemented.

Its just that every time there is a crisis people think fundamental overhauls of the system as a whole will take place. Does anyone really think Wall Street is going to change? I assume the answer is no for most people. As such, I think that the overall business model of law firms will not change dramatically either.

You may be right. Then again, I was at another interview, and the interviewer started talking to me about billable hours. I thought to myself, "Are you kidding?" That made me very nervous. That model looks like the past to me. There are firms in California now starting to bill per project and doing defense contingency cases. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I see the "billable hour" as a representation of everything that is wrong with big law, and I would love to see some fundamental pricing changes for legal services. I want lawyers to be rewarded for efficiency, not dragging out every step of the litigation process. I guess I had hoped that an economic crisis would be the impetus for that. I read an article today that forecasted another economic downturn resulting from the fact that banks are still engaging in pre-ITE practices. This is going to get interesting.

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A'nold
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:00 am

Herb Watchfell wrote:
A'nold wrote:I can't remember a span of 10 minutes where I have not thought about law school, grades, careers, transfering, law review, etc. in the past like year, but then again I am obese.


yes you are

:?:

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:34 am

Jazz:

You don't want billable hours to go away. Billable hours is one of the reasons big firms are able to employ as many people as they employ: they don't have much to gain from increased efficiency.

You know what is going to happen if clients succeed in getting firms off billable hours? Massive layoffs, and the "lucky ones" that survive are going to be working a whole lot more. Getting away from the billable hour would probably be great for the legal profession as a whole, and it would be excellent for clients... but for associates? Awful.

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Xiaolong » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:19 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Jazz:

You don't want billable hours to go away. Billable hours is one of the reasons big firms are able to employ as many people as they employ: they don't have much to gain from increased efficiency.

You know what is going to happen if clients succeed in getting firms off billable hours? Massive layoffs, and the "lucky ones" that survive are going to be working a whole lot more. Getting away from the billable hour would probably be great for the legal profession as a whole, and it would be excellent for clients... but for associates? Awful.


Can you explain to me how people in biglaw can work more? Work 20hrs a day instead of 15?

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby LurkerNoMore » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:37 am

JazzOne wrote:You may be right. Then again, I was at another interview, and the interviewer started talking to me about billable hours. I thought to myself, "Are you kidding?" That made me very nervous. That model looks like the past to me. There are firms in California now starting to bill per project and doing defense contingency cases. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I see the "billable hour" as a representation of everything that is wrong with big law, and I would love to see some fundamental pricing changes for legal services. I want lawyers to be rewarded for efficiency, not dragging out every step of the litigation process. I guess I had hoped that an economic crisis would be the impetus for that. I read an article today that forecasted another economic downturn resulting from the fact that banks are still engaging in pre-ITE practices. This is going to get interesting.



The billable hours model is not going to go away. There may be an increase in the number of projects that are billed out as a flat rate, but that went on before ITE as well, just more under the radar.

Clients don't want to get rid of the billable hour. Unless a project is routine (which is not the type of work that BigLaw usually does), it is very difficult to predict how long it is going to take. To set up a fixed fee arrangement, both sides have to make a bet on the scope of the project. The fee will be set at a price that the firm believes is greater than or equal to the actual time that will be spent and the client believes is less than or equal to the time needed. Coming to an agreement on that is not generally easy. Further, in a fixed fee arrangement, the definition of the scope of the project becomes very important. Legal work is like trying to map out an iceberg by looking at what is above water. Once you go below the surface and get into the project, the scope often changes. Because of this firms will either insist on a high fixed fee, or a very narrow scope. The first scenario is not usually one the client wants to take, and the second one generally devolves into the typical billable hour arrangement (the parties agree to a fixed fee with a limited scope and then as the project becomes more complex, the additional work gets billed separately).

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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:09 am

Xiaolong wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Jazz:

You don't want billable hours to go away. Billable hours is one of the reasons big firms are able to employ as many people as they employ: they don't have much to gain from increased efficiency.

You know what is going to happen if clients succeed in getting firms off billable hours? Massive layoffs, and the "lucky ones" that survive are going to be working a whole lot more. Getting away from the billable hour would probably be great for the legal profession as a whole, and it would be excellent for clients... but for associates? Awful.


Can you explain to me how people in biglaw can work more? Work 20hrs a day instead of 15?


The 15-hour days aren't constant, contrary to popular belief.

You get rid of the billable hour, and they might become a whole lot more frequent. Additionally, full Saturdays would almost certainly become more frequent.

09042014
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:12 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Xiaolong wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Jazz:

You don't want billable hours to go away. Billable hours is one of the reasons big firms are able to employ as many people as they employ: they don't have much to gain from increased efficiency.

You know what is going to happen if clients succeed in getting firms off billable hours? Massive layoffs, and the "lucky ones" that survive are going to be working a whole lot more. Getting away from the billable hour would probably be great for the legal profession as a whole, and it would be excellent for clients... but for associates? Awful.


Can you explain to me how people in biglaw can work more? Work 20hrs a day instead of 15?


The 15-hour days aren't constant, contrary to popular belief.

You get rid of the billable hour, and they might become a whole lot more frequent. Additionally, full Saturdays would almost certainly become more frequent.


I'd assume work quality would fall too, as lawyers would rush to complete tasks as fast as possible.




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