Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:46 pm

underdawg wrote:d00d what happens when you act like your elastic product is an inelastic one?


Haha. Exactly. Baltimore Community College Economics FTW.

bigben
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby bigben » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:56 pm

nealric wrote:
Yet for some reason you never hear of any groundbreaking legal scholarship coming from Canada.


Maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with the fact that U.S. laws don't apply in Canada. What do you expect, Canadian professors as the authority on U.S. constitutional law?

Funny thing, I actually had conlaw with a full-time prof from the U Toronto. This guy: --LinkRemoved--
He was excellent, as good or better than my US trained profs. Plus, how many U.S. profs are experts in the Canadian constitution?


To some extent, novel legal theories aren't really restricted to the laws of a particular nation.

But I'm just trolling anyway. Law school really is too expensive in the US. But I would argue that the problem isn't that the government needs to step in and decide what tuition should be. Rather, they should simply stop providing unlimited amounts of money to everyone who wants any worthless degree.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:02 pm

bigben wrote:Law school really is too expensive in the US. But I would argue that the problem isn't that the government needs to step in and decide what tuition should be. Rather, they should simply stop providing unlimited amounts of money to everyone who wants any worthless degree.


+1000

I have some thoughts on this, but don't have time to engage in a debate defending my views right now.

scionb4
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby scionb4 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:14 pm

Drew2010 wrote:
scionb4 wrote:The schools mentioned where you have over 200k in debt are all big city schools - the debt doesn't come from paying for law schools, it comes from paying to live in New York. You don't have to do that to get a law school education.


You strike me as somewhat stupid...


Uh . . . yeah, I'm really stupid - I refuse to go to law school in a big city because the cost of living would be really high. That's so fucking dumb.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Dick Whitman » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:16 pm

bigben wrote:

But I'm just trolling anyway. Law school really is too expensive in the US. But I would argue that the problem isn't that the government needs to step in and decide what tuition should be. Rather, they should simply stop providing unlimited amounts of money to everyone who wants any worthless degree.


It's still a good investment for most graduates. Limiting access to government funds would hurt people based on their socio-economic background. I would rather keep the current system and let those of questionable ability suffer.

sumus romani
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby sumus romani » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:19 pm

nealric wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:


Not if you actually make enough money to make the payments. 70k phaseout FTL :(



Also, there is a limit to the amount that can be deducted, which I believe is $2500 per year for filing as a single person. I am pretty sure about this, but not certain. If I'm right, then the tax deduction will cover very little of the overall cost of the loan and interest.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Dick Whitman » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:22 pm

sumus romani wrote:
nealric wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:


Not if you actually make enough money to make the payments. 70k phaseout FTL :(



Also, there is a limit to the amount that can be deducted, which I believe is $2500 per year for filing as a single person. I am pretty sure about this, but not certain. If I'm right, then the tax deduction will cover very little of the overall cost of the loan and interest.


Does this mean that it would be wise to, if you work at a firm over the summer during law school, to pay your accrued interest so you can take advantage of the tax deduction while you still fall under the income phaseout (and possibly during a clerkship as well)?

09042014
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:24 pm

Dick Whitman wrote:
sumus romani wrote:
nealric wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:


Not if you actually make enough money to make the payments. 70k phaseout FTL :(



Also, there is a limit to the amount that can be deducted, which I believe is $2500 per year for filing as a single person. I am pretty sure about this, but not certain. If I'm right, then the tax deduction will cover very little of the overall cost of the loan and interest.


Does this mean that it would be wise to, if you work at a firm over the summer during law school, to pay your accrued interest so you can take advantage of the tax deduction while you still fall under the income phaseout (and possibly during a clerkship as well)?


Do you have to pay the interest for it be deductible or is accrued interest deductible too?

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nealric
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby nealric » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:47 pm

The lifetime learning credit is usually better than deducting loan interest for people currently in school.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch ... 1000204325

*This is not legal advice* I have no idea what individual circumstances apply.
Last edited by nealric on Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mr. Pablo
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Mr. Pablo » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:50 pm

sumus romani wrote:
nealric wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:


Not if you actually make enough money to make the payments. 70k phaseout FTL :(



Also, there is a limit to the amount that can be deducted, which I believe is $2500 per year for filing as a single person. I am pretty sure about this, but not certain. If I'm right, then the tax deduction will cover very little of the overall cost of the loan and interest.

I wish. try $500.

edit: the $2500 is for people actually in school.

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los blancos
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby los blancos » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:57 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
coherentowst wrote:We are more likely in for a Japanese-style deflationary period than inflation, if I have it right. But who knows. I sure wouldn't gambe on massive inflation anytime soon.


Bernanke has said that he would get in a helicopter and drop money out before he would let deflation occur.


that and i bet we're gonna pay our debt back to the chinese by printing it. im sticking with my prediction that a big mac will be $10 in 2020

bigben
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby bigben » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:17 pm

Dick Whitman wrote:
bigben wrote:

But I'm just trolling anyway. Law school really is too expensive in the US. But I would argue that the problem isn't that the government needs to step in and decide what tuition should be. Rather, they should simply stop providing unlimited amounts of money to everyone who wants any worthless degree.


It's still a good investment for most graduates. Limiting access to government funds would hurt people based on their socio-economic background. I would rather keep the current system and let those of questionable ability suffer.


So much to disagree with here. Link to law school being a good investment for most graduates?

Limiting or eradicating funds is exactly what we should be doing (and I'm talking about all of higher ed here, not just law school). The most important thing here is that tuition would drop drastically as schools would have to start charging prices that are commensurate to the value of the service they provide. In the long run, schools won't just admit rich kids because then they would stop being a group of the best and brightest.

bigben
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby bigben » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:19 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:Does this mean that it would be wise to, if you work at a firm over the summer during law school, to pay your accrued interest so you can take advantage of the tax deduction while you still fall under the income phaseout (and possibly during a clerkship as well)?


Do you have to pay the interest for it be deductible or is accrued interest deductible too?


Pretty sure that you get a deduction for interest accrued, not just interest paid.

09042014
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:25 pm

bigben wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:
bigben wrote:

But I'm just trolling anyway. Law school really is too expensive in the US. But I would argue that the problem isn't that the government needs to step in and decide what tuition should be. Rather, they should simply stop providing unlimited amounts of money to everyone who wants any worthless degree.


It's still a good investment for most graduates. Limiting access to government funds would hurt people based on their socio-economic background. I would rather keep the current system and let those of questionable ability suffer.


So much to disagree with here. Link to law school being a good investment for most graduates?

Limiting or eradicating funds is exactly what we should be doing (and I'm talking about all of higher ed here, not just law school). The most important thing here is that tuition would drop drastically as schools would have to start charging prices that are commensurate to the value of the service they provide. In the long run, schools won't just admit rich kids because then they would stop being a group of the best and brightest.


He might be talking about at his school.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby SteelReserve » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:26 pm

Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:



My man/woman, I feel your pain, but forget even the phaseout. I believe no matter what you make you can only deduct $2500 per year in educational loan repayment! Basically it is a complete joke of a deduction.

Mr. Pablo
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Mr. Pablo » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:30 pm

SteelReserve wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:



My man/woman, I feel your pain, but forget even the phaseout. I believe no matter what you make you can only deduct $2500 per year in educational loan repayment! Basically it is a complete joke of a deduction.

I said it above, but I will say it again: The maximum deduction on student loan interest is $500. I know because I claim it every year.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby SteelReserve » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:33 pm

Then I defer to you Mr. Pablo. The point remains that if it were 2500, it's a fucking joke, and at 500, it's a superbly fucking joke.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Dick Whitman » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:50 pm

bigben wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:Does this mean that it would be wise to, if you work at a firm over the summer during law school, to pay your accrued interest so you can take advantage of the tax deduction while you still fall under the income phaseout (and possibly during a clerkship as well)?


Do you have to pay the interest for it be deductible or is accrued interest deductible too?


Pretty sure that you get a deduction for interest accrued, not just interest paid.


Median salary for a law school grad is north of $60k/year. The vast majority of law school grads start out at over $45k/year. The median annual income in the US is ~$50k. So the average liberal arts major law school grad that is 25-30 years old will be making more than the average American in their first year on the job.

A few caveats: Law school is much less likely to be a good investment for people who pay T14 prices for a TTTT school, people who pay T14 prices at a TT/TTT school and graduate at the bottom of their class, people with degrees that would allow them to make good money straight out of undergrad (e.g. engineering), or people with established careers before going to law school.

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englawyer
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby englawyer » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:10 am

Dick Whitman wrote:
bigben wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:Does this mean that it would be wise to, if you work at a firm over the summer during law school, to pay your accrued interest so you can take advantage of the tax deduction while you still fall under the income phaseout (and possibly during a clerkship as well)?


Do you have to pay the interest for it be deductible or is accrued interest deductible too?


Pretty sure that you get a deduction for interest accrued, not just interest paid.


Median salary for a law school grad is north of $60k/year. The vast majority of law school grads start out at over $45k/year. The median annual income in the US is ~$50k. So the average liberal arts major law school grad that is 25-30 years old will be making more than the average American in their first year on the job.

A few caveats: Law school is much less likely to be a good investment for people who pay T14 prices for a TTTT school, people who pay T14 prices at a TT/TTT school and graduate at the bottom of their class, people with degrees that would allow them to make good money straight out of undergrad (e.g. engineering), or people with established careers before going to law school.


good analysis. the worth of law school is all relative to your other opportunities. since i have a BS engineering and a few years of professional work experience, the opportunity cost would be too high for any school except those that are all but guaranteed biglaw. for those schools, the investment is still worth it over my prior career though.

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Herb Watchfell
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Herb Watchfell » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:12 am

englawyer wrote:good analysis. the worth of law school is all relative to your other opportunities. since i have a BS engineering and a few years of professional work experience, the opportunity cost would be too high for any school except those that are all but guaranteed biglaw. for those schools, the investment is still worth it over my prior career though.


--ImageRemoved--

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JazzOne
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby JazzOne » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:41 am

englawyer wrote:the worth of law school is all relative to your other opportunities. since i have a BS engineering and a few years of professional work experience, the opportunity cost would be too high for any school except those that are all but guaranteed biglaw. for those schools, the investment is still worth it over my prior career though.

:lol:

bigben
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby bigben » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:01 am

Dick Whitman wrote:Median salary for a law school grad is north of $60k/year. The vast majority of law school grads start out at over $45k/year. The median annual income in the US is ~$50k. So the average liberal arts major law school grad that is 25-30 years old will be making more than the average American in their first year on the job.

A few caveats: Law school is much less likely to be a good investment for people who pay T14 prices for a TTTT school, people who pay T14 prices at a TT/TTT school and graduate at the bottom of their class, people with degrees that would allow them to make good money straight out of undergrad (e.g. engineering), or people with established careers before going to law school.


Ok...this falls far short of proving your claim that law school is a good investment for most grads. This would be the case even if all your premises were accurate, which they are not.

I assume that you are relying on the NALP salary data when you claim that the median salary for law grads is above 60k. Sorry to break this to you, but that data is based on surveys with about a 50% response rate for the salary data. You might as well assume that only the top half reported their salary, in which case that 60k+ figure becomes the 75th percentile. (The kicker is that it seems the actual survey had a high response rate while it was only the salary field that was low). This is a common mistake that people make about that data.

So there is a lot of missing information about what law grads actually get. Salaries that are even lower than most on the chart, unemployment, jobs they could have landed without going to law school, 60k but in NYC where it is like making 35k anywhere else, etc. etc.

Beyond that, more problems. I'll just point out that the income of the average American is a completely useless basis of comparison in determining whether law school was a good investment. It reveals nothing about the opportunity costs of the people that actually go to law school, which is a very small percentage of the overall population (though ever-increasing!).

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:30 pm

I'm still chuckling at the "above median at a T20 will get you BigLaw now" posts. How in the world are people still that delusional?

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Herb Watchfell
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby Herb Watchfell » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:21 pm

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:I'm still chuckling at the "above median at a T20 will get you BigLaw now" posts. How in the world are people still that delusional?


sour sour sour

flowylime
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Re: Summer Associate Offers Plummet, Hitting 17-Year Low

Postby flowylime » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:31 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
Well, at least interest paid on student loans is tax deductible... :oops:



My man/woman, I feel your pain, but forget even the phaseout. I believe no matter what you make you can only deduct $2500 per year in educational loan repayment! Basically it is a complete joke of a deduction.

I said it above, but I will say it again: The maximum deduction on student loan interest is $500. I know because I claim it every year.


Off topic? But to correct, the maximum deduction is the lesser of $2500 or the amount of interest you paid. There are income limits, etc.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch ... 1000178280




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