White Collar Defense

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Anonymous Loser
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Anonymous Loser » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:32 am

Solerpower wrote:
pattymac wrote:Bernie Madoff isn't the only one though, you're right about it, but hes not the only white collar criminal and some of the shit that gets slung around it pretty bogus.

I'm interested in WCC defense as well. Look at the Ford Pinto case. Most overblown dog and pony show ever. Yes, it was ludicrous that Ford put out a car that had some serious, serious design flaws and a lot of people were injured. However, at the time it was no less dangerous than any other car on the market. And why did Ford rush the production of it? Trying to keep up with the demand for sub compacts that the foreign companies (volkswagon and I belieeeve mitsubishi) were dominating. Not for selfish reasons so they could line their own pockets, but so the mummies and daddies making six figures turning screws on the production line could continue doing so.



The Ford Pinto Cases were product liability and negligence, not white collar criminal defense.

But you did get Enron right...

Hooray for 50%???


The poster you quoted is talking about the reckless homicide case.

But you did get Ford right...

Hooray for 0%???

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SteelReserve
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby SteelReserve » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:05 am

Thanks. So even an ADA will get you in one day? Do you know what kind of salary these attorneys make after a certain amount of years as an ADA?

I was thinking about going the ADA route until IBR relieves all of my debt and then opening my own PI firm (yes, this is my dream, to be a personal injury attorney at my own firm, haha) but if there are good exit options for white collar defense attorney from being a prosecutor then I may look at that too.

Edit: Btw, I LOVE medical malpractice, I think it's pretty much the most entertaining and interesting law work.


I'm not sure what the salary is. Many white collar defense firms are small (or 'boutique' if you want to prestige it). Some large firms have white collar defense branches.

I'm more interested in your idea of going PI after being an ADA. This to me strikes me as an unorthodox way to do it. Civil Trials and Criminal Trials are different and are held pursuant to separate rules of procedure. Civil Lit involves much more pretrial work. PI involves a whole set of business skills and marketing skills that an ADA would never develop. What I'm saying is, to each his own, but the switch from doing 10 years as an ADA to a PI plaintiff may not be the best way to do it.

Oh and fwiw, medmal is fascinating. The medmal lawyers I know love their jobs, and the coursework on it in law school is great.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:36 am

SteelReserve wrote:
Thanks. So even an ADA will get you in one day? Do you know what kind of salary these attorneys make after a certain amount of years as an ADA?

I was thinking about going the ADA route until IBR relieves all of my debt and then opening my own PI firm (yes, this is my dream, to be a personal injury attorney at my own firm, haha) but if there are good exit options for white collar defense attorney from being a prosecutor then I may look at that too.

Edit: Btw, I LOVE medical malpractice, I think it's pretty much the most entertaining and interesting law work.


I'm not sure what the salary is. Many white collar defense firms are small (or 'boutique' if you want to prestige it). Some large firms have white collar defense branches.

I'm more interested in your idea of going PI after being an ADA. This to me strikes me as an unorthodox way to do it. Civil Trials and Criminal Trials are different and are held pursuant to separate rules of procedure. Civil Lit involves much more pretrial work. PI involves a whole set of business skills and marketing skills that an ADA would never develop. What I'm saying is, to each his own, but the switch from doing 10 years as an ADA to a PI plaintiff may not be the best way to do it.

Oh and fwiw, medmal is fascinating. The medmal lawyers I know love their jobs, and the coursework on it in law school is great.


Yeah, I see your point. However, with the amount of debt I am taking on it's going to be IBR or biglaw until it's gone. I guess there are civil divisions for cities and stuff, but I haven't really looked into that. Doesn't seem to be advertised or talked about as much.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:41 pm

It's lucrative because you have rich people with their lives on the line in more ways than one. They don't like the idea of decades+ in prison and they really don't like the idea of that guilty judgment being used against them in suits. Not to mention the criminal fines. Being found "guilty" is perceived by them to be a much bigger deal than for your generic criminal defendant. They've just got a lot more to lose.

These people want good representation. All white collar defenders are either extremely experienced criminal defense attorneys or fromer USAO/DoJ types that are now working in boutiques or big firm departments.

This really isn't a young lawyer's field. It's also technically demanding because it tends to involve litigating against the feds with complex facts and complex statutes, so there's some legitimate argument against this being for new lawyers as well.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:52 pm

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:It's lucrative because you have rich people with their lives on the line in more ways than one. They don't like the idea of decades+ in prison and they really don't like the idea of that guilty judgment being used against them in suits. Not to mention the criminal fines. Being found "guilty" is perceived by them to be a much bigger deal than for your generic criminal defendant. They've just got a lot more to lose.

These people want good representation. All white collar defenders are either extremely experienced criminal defense attorneys or fromer USAO/DoJ types that are now working in boutiques or big firm departments.

This really isn't a young lawyer's field. It's also technically demanding because it tends to involve litigating against the feds with complex facts and complex statutes, so there's some legitimate argument against this being for new lawyers as well.


So, can you get into this from being an ADA or do you have to go the federal route?

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Solerpower
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Solerpower » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:01 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:
Solerpower wrote:
pattymac wrote:Bernie Madoff isn't the only one though, you're right about it, but hes not the only white collar criminal and some of the shit that gets slung around it pretty bogus.

I'm interested in WCC defense as well. Look at the Ford Pinto case. Most overblown dog and pony show ever. Yes, it was ludicrous that Ford put out a car that had some serious, serious design flaws and a lot of people were injured. However, at the time it was no less dangerous than any other car on the market. And why did Ford rush the production of it? Trying to keep up with the demand for sub compacts that the foreign companies (volkswagon and I belieeeve mitsubishi) were dominating. Not for selfish reasons so they could line their own pockets, but so the mummies and daddies making six figures turning screws on the production line could continue doing so.



The Ford Pinto Cases were product liability and negligence, not white collar criminal defense.

But you did get Enron right...

Hooray for 50%???


The poster you quoted is talking about the reckless homicide case.

But you did get Ford right...

Hooray for 0%???


Reckless Homicide is just a fancy way of saying negligence leading to death.

It IS NOT white collar criminal defense in the slightest and does fall under negligence cases.

Next time you decide to tell me i'm wrong, make sure you're actually right.

Guess your name says it all huh?

Renzo
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Renzo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:40 pm

Solerpower wrote:
Reckless Homicide is just a fancy way of saying negligence leading to death.

It IS NOT white collar criminal defense in the slightest and does fall under negligence cases.

Next time you decide to tell me i'm wrong, make sure you're actually right.

Guess your name says it all huh?

Negligent homicide is a crime, and negligence leading to death is a tort action. Before getting into emotional pissing contests you should always make sure you're 100% right, or else you look really, really foolish.

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Solerpower
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Solerpower » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:52 pm

Renzo wrote:
Solerpower wrote:
Reckless Homicide is just a fancy way of saying negligence leading to death.

It IS NOT white collar criminal defense in the slightest and does fall under negligence cases.

Next time you decide to tell me i'm wrong, make sure you're actually right.

Guess your name says it all huh?

Negligent homicide is a crime, and negligence leading to death is a tort action. Before getting into emotional pissing contests you should always make sure you're 100% right, or else you look really, really foolish.


Negligence leading to death can be described as both Criminal and Civil law. Negligent homicide or Reckless Homicide is criminal negligence, and Strict Liability or some variant of it is civil.

With one swooping action, (the Ford Pinto Cases), you can be tried for negligent homicide and sued for some variant of civil negligence.
So what have we discovered today class?

He was wrong by calling it white collar criminal defense
It does fall under negligence cases, regardless of criminal or civil, in fact it's definitely both.

So how exactly do I look foolish, considering nothing I said was incorrect???

Renzo
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Renzo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:56 pm

Solerpower wrote:
Negligence leading to death can be described as both Criminal and Civil law. Negligent homicide is criminal negligence, negligence leading to death is civil.

With one swooping action, (the Ford Pinto Cases), you can be sued for negligent homicide and negligence leading to death (its just negligence but we can call it what you want).

So what have we discovered today class?

He was wrong by calling it white collar criminal defense
It does fall under negligence cases, regardless of criminal or civil, in fact it's definitely both.

So how exactly do I look foolish, considering nothing I said was incorrect???

Well, just in this post there was the part where you said you could be "sued" for a crime. Then there was the part where you said that a crime for which the mens rea requirement is negligence is just a "fancy way" of describing a negligent tort.

But I'mma let you slide, because it just keeps getting worse.

Anonymous User
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:59 pm

From what I have heard MANY big city (not just NY) ADA either enter the job with the dream of selling out to firms dying for people with trial experience (not just criminal defense of course but this is definitely a specialization available), either that or they strike out in their attempt to reach the bench and can't take the work (or pay) anymore. Also those who aspire to be CAREER DAs tend to drop out as well. However I am told that this usually occurs between 3-5 years on the job, they want you to have skills but they don't want you to actually start making a living wage + government benefits.

This is from the mouth of DAs and former DAs.

DA in a big city is quite possibly the best experience you can get if you ultimately want to do defense (and yes DA is much better than PD for defense work).

Depending on the state/city...
DA can be much more prestigious than DoJ/DoJ-AG, ask local lawyers

TBH, USAO takes a long time in itself to get into. They generally don't hire anyone less then 3 years out of law school. While they are the all-stars of criminal prosecution, it would take a lot of work to get there (while the local DOJ/A-G office is kinda the red-headed stepchild).

If you can stand the pay and aren't working in a big city with absurd cost of living (maybe state capitol over population center?) I would suggest DA if you are serious about doing defense later in life.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Solerpower
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Solerpower » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:02 am

Renzo wrote:
Solerpower wrote:
Negligence leading to death can be described as both Criminal and Civil law. Negligent homicide is criminal negligence, negligence leading to death is civil.

With one swooping action, (the Ford Pinto Cases), you can be sued for negligent homicide and negligence leading to death (its just negligence but we can call it what you want).

So what have we discovered today class?

He was wrong by calling it white collar criminal defense
It does fall under negligence cases, regardless of criminal or civil, in fact it's definitely both.

So how exactly do I look foolish, considering nothing I said was incorrect???

Well, just in this post there was the part where you said you could be "sued" for a crime. Then there was the part where you said that a crime for which the mens rea requirement is negligence is just a "fancy way" of describing a negligent tort.

But I'mma let you slide, because it just keeps getting worse.


So instead of relating to my argument, you get into a pissing match with me about mistakingly stating sued instead of tried and crime instead of mens rea.

So you concede i'm right and you were wrong, and I concede I miss used a couple of words. Sounds good to me!

UCLAtransfer
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby UCLAtransfer » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:25 am

I worked in the white collar crime group for the U.S. Attorney's Office in a major city the summer after 1L, and met a couple of AUSAs who have since left and gone into white collar defense.

One of them worked for the State AGs office for a number of years prosecuting fraud-type cases before moving over to the USAO.

The other clerked out of law school, went to V5 firm and did appellate lit for 2-3 years and then joined the USAO.

Both of them went to big firms with white collar defense practices.

Barring the USAO route, I would imagine that previous posters are correct that working for DOJ, SEC, or even big city prosecutor could all be a viable route to eventual white collar defense work.

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Herb Watchfell
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby Herb Watchfell » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:28 am

I think the most viable route is to get rich quickly. Get rich quickly by cheating. Cheat the hell out of the system. Next, do whatever you can to get caught. Finally, represent yourself.

good luck!

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SteelReserve
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby SteelReserve » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:32 am

A'Nold

I forget to mention that since you're looking for IBR, you could try to get into a State's AG office or a major city's Law Department. These positions are of course highly competitive even before so many states initiated hiring freezes (which probably won't let up by the time you graduate). But if you can get one, you could get your IBR all while doing civil lit--and tons of tort defense!

This would be a great way to get into personal injury on the plaintiff's side with tons of relevant trial experience.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:57 am

SteelReserve wrote:A'Nold

I forget to mention that since you're looking for IBR, you could try to get into a State's AG office or a major city's Law Department. These positions are of course highly competitive even before so many states initiated hiring freezes (which probably won't let up by the time you graduate). But if you can get one, you could get your IBR all while doing civil lit--and tons of tort defense!

This would be a great way to get into personal injury on the plaintiff's side with tons of relevant trial experience.


Thanks you guys, these were really great posts! I was thinking the same thing about doing civil litigation for the gov., that might be the best route. I really love both of these paths. That's a good thing considering I am still searching for what I want to do. I appreciate all of the responses and keep them coming if anyone has more to add. :)




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