White Collar Defense

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A'nold
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White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:07 am

This is obviously a years down the road kind of question as I will be looking at either gov. work with IBR or biglaw due to my debt. Anyone else interested in these areas? How would one go about doing this for a living? It's just something I know I could be pretty good at and find interesting.
Last edited by A'nold on Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kohinoor
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:15 am

A'nold wrote:This is obviously a years down the road kind of question as I will be looking at either gov. work with IBR or biglaw due to my debt. Anyone else interested in these areas? How would one go about doing this for a living? It's just something I know I could be pretty good at and find interesting.

White collar defense and drug defense are hella different fields.

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jks289
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby jks289 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:19 am

I'm not planning on doing defense work but ultimately I'd like to prosecute drugs and violent crime for the DOJ Criminal division.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:58 am

Kohinoor wrote:
A'nold wrote:This is obviously a years down the road kind of question as I will be looking at either gov. work with IBR or biglaw due to my debt. Anyone else interested in these areas? How would one go about doing this for a living? It's just something I know I could be pretty good at and find interesting.

White collar defense and drug defense are hella different fields.


Sort of, except for the fact that they share the common theme that they are very overpunished non-violent crimes (drug offenses not always I guess). I feel that violent crimes are often punished to little and that non-violent crimes such as embezzlement or something gets punished way too harshly irt prison time.

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emilybeth
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby emilybeth » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:05 am

Uhhhh are you kidding? I think white collar crime does some of the most insidious damage to our economy. Bernie Madoff, anyone?

eaters333
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby eaters333 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:08 am

why would you want to do white collar defense, do you have no soul? Or are you just that greedy

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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:09 am

OVER-PUNISHED?????????

pattymac
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby pattymac » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:21 am

Bernie Madoff isn't the only one though, you're right about it, but hes not the only white collar criminal and some of the shit that gets slung around it pretty bogus.

I'm interested in WCC defense as well. Look at the Ford Pinto case. Most overblown dog and pony show ever. Yes, it was ludicrous that Ford put out a car that had some serious, serious design flaws and a lot of people were injured. However, at the time it was no less dangerous than any other car on the market. And why did Ford rush the production of it? Trying to keep up with the demand for sub compacts that the foreign companies (volkswagon and I belieeeve mitsubishi) were dominating. Not for selfish reasons so they could line their own pockets, but so the mummies and daddies making six figures turning screws on the production line could continue doing so.

I think in a lot of ways Enron was blown out of proportion as well. The guy who profited the most illegally was Andy Fastow, the mastermind behind the whole thing who rolled on the other guys and recieved the lightest jail sentence. For christs sakes, Jeff Skilling got like 52 years in prison and he had quit as CEO 6 months before Enron tanked only to jump BACK into the swing of things for its demise. I don't really feel badly for stockholders either. Playing around in the stock market is the same as betting on sports. I wouldn't calll for Kobe's head because he missed a buzzer beater and I lost my proline.

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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Solerpower » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:39 am

pattymac wrote:Bernie Madoff isn't the only one though, you're right about it, but hes not the only white collar criminal and some of the shit that gets slung around it pretty bogus.

I'm interested in WCC defense as well. Look at the Ford Pinto case. Most overblown dog and pony show ever. Yes, it was ludicrous that Ford put out a car that had some serious, serious design flaws and a lot of people were injured. However, at the time it was no less dangerous than any other car on the market. And why did Ford rush the production of it? Trying to keep up with the demand for sub compacts that the foreign companies (volkswagon and I belieeeve mitsubishi) were dominating. Not for selfish reasons so they could line their own pockets, but so the mummies and daddies making six figures turning screws on the production line could continue doing so.

I think in a lot of ways Enron was blown out of proportion as well. The guy who profited the most illegally was Andy Fastow, the mastermind behind the whole thing who rolled on the other guys and recieved the lightest jail sentence. For christs sakes, Jeff Skilling got like 52 years in prison and he had quit as CEO 6 months before Enron tanked only to jump BACK into the swing of things for its demise. I don't really feel badly for stockholders either. Playing around in the stock market is the same as betting on sports. I wouldn't calll for Kobe's head because he missed a buzzer beater and I lost my proline.


The Ford Pinto Cases were product liability and negligence, not white collar criminal defense.

But you did get Enron right...

Hooray for 50%???

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Kohinoor
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:46 am

A'nold wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
A'nold wrote:This is obviously a years down the road kind of question as I will be looking at either gov. work with IBR or biglaw due to my debt. Anyone else interested in these areas? How would one go about doing this for a living? It's just something I know I could be pretty good at and find interesting.

White collar defense and drug defense are hella different fields.


Sort of, except for the fact that they share the common theme that they are very overpunished non-violent crimes (drug offenses not always I guess). I feel that violent crimes are often punished to little and that non-violent crimes such as embezzlement or something gets punished way too harshly irt prison time.

:\ I can't reconcile your conflation of smoking a joint and embezzling thousands of dollars.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:49 am

Lol at people that want to hang these CEO's out to dry and send them to jail for 50 years b/c they lied. Ooooh, that's so much worse than raping somebody, let me tell you.

Anyway, I am not a "big business" soleless money hungry kind of guy, but give me a break. Martha Stewart? Bernie Ebbers? Most of the CEO's during the 2001 crash were just doing their jobs and trying to pump up their stocks, albeit in a less than honorable way. They were the sacrificial lambs for people who were upset at a 100% unavoidable result: a bursting bubble. What goes up must come down people.

I'm not saying that they did not have knowledge of their company's financial situation. The thing is that everyone wanted stocks to go up no matter what. People and mutual funds could just blindly pump money into these stocks without taking anything else into consideration. PE Ratio a billion to one? No problem, Cisco systems is going to make 300 trillion dollars in like 5 years and I'll make 10,000% on my investment even though Cisco has already gone up 55,000% since 1990. Sounds like a good plan.

If any CEO said ANYTHING negative at all, they risked losing their jobs and being mobbed by angry shareholders. They were not Madoffs, they were CEO's that made a mistake, a FINANCIAL mistake. Fine them. Fine them millions, bankrupt them, give them a felony, make them work at Mickey D's for the rest of their lives, but give them life imprisonment? Who are the heartless ones? 8)

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:49 am

Kohinoor wrote:
A'nold wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
A'nold wrote:This is obviously a years down the road kind of question as I will be looking at either gov. work with IBR or biglaw due to my debt. Anyone else interested in these areas? How would one go about doing this for a living? It's just something I know I could be pretty good at and find interesting.

White collar defense and drug defense are hella different fields.


Sort of, except for the fact that they share the common theme that they are very overpunished non-violent crimes (drug offenses not always I guess). I feel that violent crimes are often punished to little and that non-violent crimes such as embezzlement or something gets punished way too harshly irt prison time.

:\ I can't reconcile your conflation of smoking a joint and embezzling thousands of dollars.


Every embezzler is a drug dealer. /thread. :wink:

Edit: man, I just came back to this thread expecting to be called a heartless evil bastard......c'mon, I'm bored. :)

Renzo
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Re: White Collar Defense or Drug Defense

Postby Renzo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:28 pm

I'd like to do white-collar defense. Drug dealers don't pay their bills, so I'm not interested.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:13 pm

Renzo wrote:I'd like to do white-collar defense. Drug dealers don't pay their bills, so I'm not interested.



The gov. confiscated their $ before attorney's fees? Scratch that idea. :)

Do you know how to get into this field, renzo? I know a lot of people wanted to debate about the merits of such a career but does anyone know how to go about this/job stats/specifics?

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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby Renzo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:22 pm

A'nold wrote:
Renzo wrote:I'd like to do white-collar defense. Drug dealers don't pay their bills, so I'm not interested.



The gov. confiscated their $ before attorney's fees? Scratch that idea. :)

Do you know how to get into this field, renzo? I know a lot of people wanted to debate about the merits of such a career but does anyone know how to go about this/job stats/specifics?

Drug defense means local public defender or legal aid society. White collar defense mostly happens at the big NY firms (Vault, alreadybored, NALP, can all help find firms with white collar practice groups). I spoke with a 5th-year lit associate at a big firm a few days ago who does mostly white-collar work. He said that almost everyone who does such work goes to a firm for a few years, leaves for USAO/Manhattan DA/FTC/FDIC/CFTC/etc. and does related prosecutorial work for a while, then goes back to private practice doing defense. He said it's possible to do white-collar work at an entry-level in a firm, but it isn't really possible to make partner doing that kind of work without some government bonafides.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:26 pm

Interesting. So, is the government route after firm work a choice to better your criminal law skills/courtroom experience or is it so a white collar botique or something hires you?

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EijiMiyake
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby EijiMiyake » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:31 pm

Drug dealers are directly and indirectly responsible for an enormous amount of violent and non-violent crime.

Renzo
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby Renzo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:32 pm

A'nold wrote:Interesting. So, is the government route after firm work a choice to better your criminal law skills/courtroom experience or is it so a white collar botique or something hires you?

Both. White-collar defendants look for lawyers who have been prosecutors. That's why Bracewell & Patterson became Bracewell & Giuliani when they opened a NYC office with a white-collar practice.

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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby legends159 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:35 pm

many biglaw firms have white collar practice groups though they are not large. Usually they are under the umbrella of general litigation and you get into it by requesting to work with certain people who primarily do this type of work.

It's a tough practice to get into unless you do biglaw. SEC/USAO don't hire out of LS and most ppl go from biglaw to gov't back to firms. I'm sure litigation boutiques that specialize in white collar defense are more likely to hire laterals than LS grads.

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EijiMiyake
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby EijiMiyake » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:36 pm

legends159 wrote:many biglaw firms have white collar practice groups though they are not large. Usually they are under the umbrella of general litigation and you get into it by requesting to work with certain people who primarily do this type of work.

It's a tough practice to get into unless you do biglaw. SEC/USAO don't hire out of LS and most ppl go from biglaw to gov't back to firms. I'm sure litigation boutiques that specialize in white collar defense are more likely to hire laterals than LS grads.



Don't hire many people, or don't hire at all? I thought the SEC had an honors program.

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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby Renzo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:39 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:
legends159 wrote:many biglaw firms have white collar practice groups though they are not large. Usually they are under the umbrella of general litigation and you get into it by requesting to work with certain people who primarily do this type of work.

It's a tough practice to get into unless you do biglaw. SEC/USAO don't hire out of LS and most ppl go from biglaw to gov't back to firms. I'm sure litigation boutiques that specialize in white collar defense are more likely to hire laterals than LS grads.



Don't hire many people, or don't hire at all? I thought the SEC had an honors program.

They do (I think). Some of the less competitive USAOs have been known to hire straight out of clerkships, too. But as a general rule it's fair to say that they only hire attorneys with a few years under their belts.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:52 pm

EijiMiyake wrote:Drug dealers are directly and indirectly responsible for an enormous amount of violent and non-violent crime.


Didn't I preface my OP by saying that I knew that drugs are very related to violent crime? I'm pretty sure I said something like "it's arguable that it's not violent" or something like that.

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SteelReserve
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby SteelReserve » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:12 am

The best route into white collar defense is to become an ADA or AUSA. If you search firms that do white collar defense, and check the respective attorneys, you will find that the vast majority of them were prosecutors at the state or federal level.

Oh, and from a 2L that wants to be a medmal attorney, welcome to taking shit for choosing an aspect of the profession that is reviled by most. I hope you have a thick skin.

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beef wellington
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby beef wellington » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:33 am

EijiMiyake wrote:Drug dealers are directly and indirectly responsible for an enormous amount of violent and non-violent crime.

It's all in the game.

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A'nold
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Re: White Collar Defense

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:47 am

SteelReserve wrote:The best route into white collar defense is to become an ADA or AUSA. If you search firms that do white collar defense, and check the respective attorneys, you will find that the vast majority of them were prosecutors at the state or federal level.

Oh, and from a 2L that wants to be a medmal attorney, welcome to taking shit for choosing an aspect of the profession that is reviled by most. I hope you have a thick skin.


Thanks. So even an ADA will get you in one day? Do you know what kind of salary these attorneys make after a certain amount of years as an ADA?

I was thinking about going the ADA route until IBR relieves all of my debt and then opening my own PI firm (yes, this is my dream, to be a personal injury attorney at my own firm, haha) but if there are good exit options for white collar defense attorney from being a prosecutor then I may look at that too.

Edit: Btw, I LOVE medical malpractice, I think it's pretty much the most entertaining and interesting law work.




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