Will legal career prospects level out?

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James Bond
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby James Bond » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:44 am

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Pointless anonymous posting!

WIll get you outed and banned.


...the original point was making fun of those who were doing it in the thread....

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:47 pm

They are leveled/leveling out. The 2005-2007 hiring surge & salary spiral was abnormal. More broadly, most new lawyers have always started in the mid-five figures. This has never stopped people from beliving that they all start well into six with a complementary Merc.

Anonymous User
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:56 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:If by level out, you mean improve; I do not believe that they will. Much like public accounting and management consulting, I believe that we are seeing a paradigm shift in the way that firms are managed. I think that we are seeing a changing in the underlying business model. There are a number of very well written law review articles supporting this assertion.


I thought accounting was experiencing a huge spike in job prospects, or is it different for them?


There has been a major pull back in hiring in recent years. W/r/t the audit practices of the big four firms, significant revenues as in the early years from 404 are largely gone and the convergance of U.S. GAAP and IFRS still seems to be off in the distance. The firms have are trending away from this "people first" mentality and trending back to the days of mandatory billable hours. Partners became accustomed to inflated salaries and to maintain this, the firms must operate and lean as possible.


agreed. my fiance has people on him constantly about not billing enough hours. seems ridiculous to me.

avacado111
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby avacado111 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:57 pm

do you think going to a t10 in this econ worth it (sticker)?

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chadwick218
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:48 pm

avacado111 wrote:do you think going to a t10 in this econ worth it (sticker)?


As a 0L, I often wondered the same thing ... now that I am in law school, I am now more convinced than ever that going to a t10 over a t30 (even with a 1/2 scholarship). Speaking with respect to the Chicago market, there were some firms that didn't even bother showing up on campus this year at UIUC or ND.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:25 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
avacado111 wrote:do you think going to a t10 in this econ worth it (sticker)?


As a 0L, I often wondered the same thing ... now that I am in law school, I am now more convinced than ever that going to a t10 over a t30 (even with a 1/2 scholarship). Speaking with respect to the Chicago market, there were some firms that didn't even bother showing up on campus this year at UIUC or ND.


Whether it's worth it is all dependent on whether you get an offer after your 2L summer. Obviously, your odds are much better at a t10, but it's a lot bigger of a gamble. I guess the bigger the risk the larger the potential payoff. I think it's just a hard gamble for some when they sit down and actually think about it -- i.e. it's pretty much like gambling $200K on margin on one technology stock in a shitty economy. To make matters worse you can't discharge it in bankruptcy like you could the technology stock loss. IMO, the tech stock on margin is the better gamble ITE.

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chadwick218
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:36 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:Whether it's worth it is all dependent on whether you get an offer after your 2L summer. Obviously, your odds are much better at a t10, but it's a lot bigger of a gamble. I guess the bigger the risk the larger the potential payoff. I think it's just a hard gamble for some when they sit down and actually think about it -- i.e. it's pretty much like gambling $200K on margin on one technology stock in a shitty economy. To make matters worse you can't discharge it in bankruptcy like you could the technology stock loss. IMO, the tech stock on margin is the better gamble ITE.


It might be a gamble, but at least there is still somewhat of an expected payoff. Not sure that this can be said about a a number of T50's unless you find yourself in the top 5-10% (slight exaggeration).

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:47 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Whether it's worth it is all dependent on whether you get an offer after your 2L summer. Obviously, your odds are much better at a t10, but it's a lot bigger of a gamble. I guess the bigger the risk the larger the potential payoff. I think it's just a hard gamble for some when they sit down and actually think about it -- i.e. it's pretty much like gambling $200K on margin on one technology stock in a shitty economy. To make matters worse you can't discharge it in bankruptcy like you could the technology stock loss. IMO, the tech stock on margin is the better gamble ITE.


It might be a gamble, but at least there is still somewhat of an expected payoff. Not sure that this can be said about a a number of T50's unless you find yourself in the top 5-10% (slight exaggeration).


The expected payoff only applies if you get an offer after your 2L summer. It's a pretty big loss otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying paying any money to attend a t50 is a good idea (I wouldn't ITE), but if it were between going for free at a t30 or sticker at a t10, I'd take the former (because you don't need biglaw to repay your student loans then). Between HYS sticker or t30 full ride, I'd take HYS in a heartbeat (because they are apparently recession-proof). I'd probably take HYS sticker over full ride at a t14.

t10 (sticker) > t30 1/2 scholly hands down (or even 3/4 scholly) just because the t30 with even a 3/4 scholly will leave you with a lot of debt when you factor in the $50K it will cost you to live, buy books, heath insurance, etc for 3 years.

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swc65
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby swc65 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:56 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
avacado111 wrote:do you think going to a t10 in this econ worth it (sticker)?


As a 0L, I often wondered the same thing ... now that I am in law school, I am now more convinced than ever that going to a t10 over a t30 (even with a 1/2 scholarship). Speaking with respect to the Chicago market, there were some firms that didn't even bother showing up on campus this year at UIUC or ND.


Whether it's worth it is all dependent on whether you get an offer after your 2L summer. Obviously, your odds are much better at a t10, but it's a lot bigger of a gamble. I guess the bigger the risk the larger the potential payoff. I think it's just a hard gamble for some when they sit down and actually think about it -- i.e. it's pretty much like gambling $200K on margin on one technology stock in a shitty economy. To make matters worse you can't discharge it in bankruptcy like you could the technology stock loss. IMO, the tech stock on margin is the better gamble ITE.



Even though you cannot easily discharge Fed Loans in bankruptcy, they do have flexible payment options and hardship deferrals. This lessens, though by no mean eliminates, the risk of not being able to pay your loans. Not to mention, it is unsecured debt. They are not going to come and take your house/car if you cannot pay. Although, it might make it pretty difficult to ever buy a house or car for a few years if you cannot pay.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:58 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Whether it's worth it is all dependent on whether you get an offer after your 2L summer. Obviously, your odds are much better at a t10, but it's a lot bigger of a gamble. I guess the bigger the risk the larger the potential payoff. I think it's just a hard gamble for some when they sit down and actually think about it -- i.e. it's pretty much like gambling $200K on margin on one technology stock in a shitty economy. To make matters worse you can't discharge it in bankruptcy like you could the technology stock loss. IMO, the tech stock on margin is the better gamble ITE.


It might be a gamble, but at least there is still somewhat of an expected payoff. Not sure that this can be said about a a number of T50's unless you find yourself in the top 5-10% (slight exaggeration).


The expected payoff only applies if you get an offer after your 2L summer. It's a pretty big loss otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying paying any money to attend a t50 is a good idea (I wouldn't ITE), but if it were between going for free at a t30 or sticker at a t10, I'd take the former (because you don't need biglaw to repay your student loans then). Between HYS sticker or t30 full ride, I'd take HYS in a heartbeat (because they are apparently recession-proof). I'd probably take HYS sticker over full ride at a t14.

t10 (sticker) > t30 1/2 scholly hands down (or even 3/4 scholly) just because the t30 with even a 3/4 scholly will leave you with a lot of debt when you factor in the $50K it will cost you to live, buy books, heath insurance, etc for 3 years.


It all depends on what your other options are. If you are choosing between a t10 and working at Starbucks, the t10 still makes alot of financial sense, even ITE. Hopefully, you will have around a 50/50 shot at a big firm job, and if you don't get it you can try to find something that will get your debt absolved after 10 years of IBR.

eudaimondaimon
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby eudaimondaimon » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:03 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:It all depends on what your other options are. If you are choosing between a t10 and working at Starbucks, the t10 still makes alot of financial sense, even ITE.


As someone with a Classical Studies degree, this exactly describes my situation. :mrgreen:

keg411
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby keg411 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:12 pm

My dad is an attorney in NJ and said for the first time in a long time, there were ads in the Law Journal for firms looking to hire new associates. So there are some signs of life.

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edgarderby
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby edgarderby » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:20 am

chadwick218 wrote:
avacado111 wrote:do you think going to a t10 in this econ worth it (sticker)?


As a 0L, I often wondered the same thing ... now that I am in law school, I am now more convinced than ever that going to a t10 over a t30 (even with a 1/2 scholarship). Speaking with respect to the Chicago market, there were some firms that didn't even bother showing up on campus this year at UIUC or ND.


We had tons of firms at OCI as always, they just weren't there to hire anyone this time.

spearnreel
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby spearnreel » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:34 am

The legal market is in the pooper now matter how you look at it.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:50 am

edgarderby wrote:
We had tons of firms at OCI as always, they just weren't there to hire anyone this time.


I remember going to a career fair during UG shortly after the lid came off the Enron story. Arthur Andersen had a booth there and as I approached the guy working it he said "Yeah, umm, we're really not hiring anyone or doing anything right now." After I asked him why they decided to come his reply was "We already paid for the booth."

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thedogship
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Re: Will legal career prospects level out?

Postby thedogship » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:59 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
edgarderby wrote:
We had tons of firms at OCI as always, they just weren't there to hire anyone this time.


I remember going to a career fair during UG shortly after the lid came off the Enron story. Arthur Andersen had a booth there and as I approached the guy working it he said "Yeah, umm, we're really not hiring anyone or doing anything right now." After I asked him why they decided to come his reply was "We already paid for the booth."


this is the twisted relationship between the schools and employers where the students suffer. The employers can say "we came to your school last year, and the year before, and the year before". The school can say "We've had company X come to our job fair for the past 10 years and talk to our students." Neither are false, but both are misleading.




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