US Attorney's Office

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Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:55 am

Voyager wrote:
EDIT: hey, I don't mean to upset you people. I continue to do so and I am sorry for it. Really. I can see the argument for disclosing. I am not saying that disclosing is stupid or "bad"... all I am saying is that it is highly unlikely anyone would ever find out if he did not. Also, Feds don't like drug use.


You're the kind of person who recommends lying in a sworn statement for persona gain, and you don't know why you upset people? Really?

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:54 pm

heh. yeah. naughty me.

Anonymous User
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:02 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Used adderall for the first time last semester as a study aid. did so before i knew i would be applying to the USAO. Only drug use in the past year. Only two people know I did it, both law students, we used it together. While unethical, they would not mention we did it if asked.

Disclose? If I disclose, is this an auto-reject? I am paranoid, yes. I also tried adderall because I was paranoid, and was vastly disappointed.


jesus christ. can i tell him to not disclose this one, guys? Or are the paranoid ethics police going to shit themselves again even on this?

Anonymous User
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:23 pm

is this ultra disclosure policy normal of law students and lawyers in general, or is this specific to TLS? i mean, TLS' demographic is probably composed of the most straight edge of the most straight edge, who are giving advice from that perspective. obviously one would disclose if they had been written up for a citation for drugs, but if they are clean in that respect, what then?

are 22-25 years olds expected to be saints, or if not complete saints (literally. single drug use in a year is pretty saintly for 20s), it seems to reason they are expected not to work for the DOJ or USAO?

is it the same policy for most attorney generals? ie CA AG?

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:Used adderall for the first time last semester as a study aid. did so before i knew i would be applying to the USAO. Only drug use in the past year. Only two people know I did it, both law students, we used it together. While unethical, they would not mention we did it if asked.

Disclose? If I disclose, is this an auto-reject? I am paranoid, yes. I also tried adderall because I was paranoid, and was vastly disappointed.

You're far more likely to get away with this than social drug use. Personally, I still wouldn't lie in a sworn statement to the FBI, but it would be for ethics reasons. In the end, you have to decide if it's worth lying for a temporary internship that won't turn into a permanent job.

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:is this ultra disclosure policy normal of law students and lawyers in general, or is this specific to TLS? i mean, TLS' demographic is probably composed of the most straight edge of the most straight edge, who are giving advice from that perspective. obviously one would disclose if they had been written up for a citation for drugs, but if they are clean in that respect, what then?

are 22-25 years olds expected to be saints, or if not complete saints (literally. single drug use in a year is pretty saintly for 20s), it seems to reason they are expected not to work for the DOJ or USAO?

is it the same policy for most attorney generals? ie CA AG?
It's not an issue of disclosure. It's an issue of lying to the FBI under oath. So, I'd say there isn't an "ultra disclosure" policy-just a belief that lying to federal prosecutors under oath is not the best way to get a job with a federal prosecutor.

I am anything but saintly. My background check was a hassle and a half. But you have a skewed perception: most people who have serious ambitions to work for the federal government do not use drugs. Hell, many of the federal law enforcement agencies (e.g. DEA, ATF) won't even take a candidate who has used marijuana more than ten times ever in their lives.

Seriously, one year is not that long keep your nose clean, and it baffles me why people who can't even put that together would want to work for a federal prosecutor.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:10 am

Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Used adderall for the first time last semester as a study aid. did so before i knew i would be applying to the USAO. Only drug use in the past year. Only two people know I did it, both law students, we used it together. While unethical, they would not mention we did it if asked.

Disclose? If I disclose, is this an auto-reject? I am paranoid, yes. I also tried adderall because I was paranoid, and was vastly disappointed.

You're far more likely to get away with this than social drug use. Personally, I still wouldn't lie in a sworn statement to the FBI, but it would be for ethics reasons. In the end, you have to decide if it's worth lying for a temporary internship that won't turn into a permanent job.


Now you want him to disclose adderrall use? Confused about what part of that is even illegal? The fact that he probably did not have a prescription? This seems awfully silly to me.

What happens if I borrowed a friend's olf vicodin for use after I hurt myself? Should I disclose that too?

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:26 am

Voyager wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Used adderall for the first time last semester as a study aid. did so before i knew i would be applying to the USAO. Only drug use in the past year. Only two people know I did it, both law students, we used it together. While unethical, they would not mention we did it if asked.

Disclose? If I disclose, is this an auto-reject? I am paranoid, yes. I also tried adderall because I was paranoid, and was vastly disappointed.

You're far more likely to get away with this than social drug use. Personally, I still wouldn't lie in a sworn statement to the FBI, but it would be for ethics reasons. In the end, you have to decide if it's worth lying for a temporary internship that won't turn into a permanent job.


Now you want him to disclose adderrall use? Confused about what part of that is even illegal? The fact that he probably did not have a prescription? This seems awfully silly to me.

What happens if I borrowed a friend's olf vicodin for use after I hurt myself? Should I disclose that too?


Well, the directions say that use of prescription medication without a prescription count, so yes, if you want to be honest. But, we've already established that you don't. Again, if this were a private employer, I'd feel differently about it. It's not that it's such a big deal it needs to be disclosed; rather, I have a problem with lying under oath.

sfdreaming09
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby sfdreaming09 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Does anybody know how to find out about recent cases that each of these offices have been working on?

Anonymous User
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:05 pm

I feel like Voyager is normally a pretty solid poster but I might be thinking of someone else, because this is some really shitty advice.

OP, above posters have highlighted some pretty compelling reasons to just skip applying to USAOs. Sure, the chances of getting caught are remarkably slim but: (a) do you really want to start your legal career out out by lying to a federal agency in order to get a job; and (b) do you actually want to take the risk, however small, that you will end your career with such a lie and never be able to pass C&F?

As unfair as it might seem to be excluded from the job based on what many see as not being a big deal, it is what it is, and its not a huge deal- its a single type of 1L job which won't matter much long-term. I spent my 1L summer at a major-city USAO and I can tell you the AUSAs and other interns that I encountered did not seem like the type of people who smoke a joint every once in a while-they take their jobs very seriously, and their job is to enforce the law.

sfdreaming09 wrote:Does anybody know how to find out about recent cases that each of these offices have been working on?


Just google the specific office/district, and find the press releases section. The office I worked for was constantly pumping out press releases on cases, and you can get a sense of the workload based on the number and type of releases- e.g., SDCA is likely a lot of drug trafficking/immigration, SDNY is a lot of financial crimes, etc.

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:06 pm

sfdreaming09 wrote:Does anybody know how to find out about recent cases that each of these offices have been working on?

They often put brag-news on their websites, if it's a big district. Otherwise, it'll be tough. You might search old posts of the Main Justice blog to see what you can find.

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vamedic03
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:18 pm

Voyager wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Used adderall for the first time last semester as a study aid. did so before i knew i would be applying to the USAO. Only drug use in the past year. Only two people know I did it, both law students, we used it together. While unethical, they would not mention we did it if asked.

Disclose? If I disclose, is this an auto-reject? I am paranoid, yes. I also tried adderall because I was paranoid, and was vastly disappointed.

You're far more likely to get away with this than social drug use. Personally, I still wouldn't lie in a sworn statement to the FBI, but it would be for ethics reasons. In the end, you have to decide if it's worth lying for a temporary internship that won't turn into a permanent job.


Now you want him to disclose adderrall use? Confused about what part of that is even illegal? The fact that he probably did not have a prescription? This seems awfully silly to me.

What happens if I borrowed a friend's olf vicodin for use after I hurt myself? Should I disclose that too?


Vicodin is a schedule III narcotic. Other schedule III drugs include anabolic steroids and ketamine.

Edit - Adderall, fyi is a schedule II drug - same as cocaine, morphine, and opium.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:35 pm

heh. ok. Well, my final thought is this quote from the other other drug thread:

There is all but zero chance of you admitting to it within the last year and getting the job. Generally, you need to be years removed, and it needs to have been when you were young. I don't know how young you are, but 26-27 is considered to old to still be experimenting with drugs. Believe me, I saw a thirty year old interview for a different part of the DOJ who admitted to smoking up until he was 28. Even though he was two years removed, it was basically said that if you are still smoking at 28, then you obviously don't respect the position you are applying too. Personally, I just don't understand wanting to be the enforcement arm of the country yet wondering if you can continue to participate in the same things of the people you are prosecuting.


Worth keeping in mind.

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vamedic03
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:30 pm

Not to put this completely off topic, but it's worth mentioning that law students and pre law students should keep in mind that prescription drug abuse is the same as other forms of drug abuse. Adderall is an amphetamine, vicodin, percocet, etc. are all opiate narcotics.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:52 am

vamedic03 wrote:Not to put this completely off topic, but it's worth mentioning that law students and pre law students should keep in mind that prescription drug abuse is the same as other forms of drug abuse. Adderall is an amphetamine, vicodin, percocet, etc. are all opiate narcotics.


Hilarious. I know a bunch of people used adderall as a study aid at my school. I never really understood why, after all, it's just law school, but they did. None of them disclosed. All are practicing.

You really think people should disclose all of that?

Also, let's say I borrowed a friend's vicodin when I got injured last year. Disclose?

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:39 am

Voyager wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:Not to put this completely off topic, but it's worth mentioning that law students and pre law students should keep in mind that prescription drug abuse is the same as other forms of drug abuse. Adderall is an amphetamine, vicodin, percocet, etc. are all opiate narcotics.


Hilarious. I know a bunch of people used adderall as a study aid at my school. I never really understood why, after all, it's just law school, but they did. None of them disclosed. All are practicing.

You really think people should disclose all of that?

Also, let's say I borrowed a friend's vicodin when I got injured last year. Disclose?

You keep using the meaningless term "disclose." The question here is "should they lie in a sworn statement?" My answer is no, and it doesn't matter what the lie is.

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Grizz
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:i mean, TLS' demographic is probably composed of the most straight edge of the most straight edge, who are giving advice from that perspective.


Have you missed all the blatant alcohol abuse on here?

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vamedic03
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby vamedic03 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Voyager wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:Not to put this completely off topic, but it's worth mentioning that law students and pre law students should keep in mind that prescription drug abuse is the same as other forms of drug abuse. Adderall is an amphetamine, vicodin, percocet, etc. are all opiate narcotics.


Hilarious. I know a bunch of people used adderall as a study aid at my school. I never really understood why, after all, it's just law school, but they did. None of them disclosed. All are practicing.

You really think people should disclose all of that?

Also, let's say I borrowed a friend's vicodin when I got injured last year. Disclose?


Look, cocaine is a schedule II narcotic as well. So, yes, if asked whether or not you used illegal drugs, you should answer yes for the vicodin and yes for the adderall.

Look, if the drug wasn't prescribed to you then it's no different from going out and buying a street drug. Either way, you have broken the drug laws. This isn't about being straight edge and it's not about whether or not to use drugs. This is about the following - if you're going to work for a prosecutor then you shouldn't be abusing any drugs. If they ask you whether or not you have abused drugs in the past, you should be honest.

Also, if you were injured badly enough for vicodin, you needed to be treated by a physician. Otherwise, NSAIDS (ibuprofen, naproxifen, etc.) are widely available OTC and work extremely well for pain.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:29 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Voyager wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:Not to put this completely off topic, but it's worth mentioning that law students and pre law students should keep in mind that prescription drug abuse is the same as other forms of drug abuse. Adderall is an amphetamine, vicodin, percocet, etc. are all opiate narcotics.


Hilarious. I know a bunch of people used adderall as a study aid at my school. I never really understood why, after all, it's just law school, but they did. None of them disclosed. All are practicing.

You really think people should disclose all of that?

Also, let's say I borrowed a friend's vicodin when I got injured last year. Disclose?


Look, cocaine is a schedule II narcotic as well. So, yes, if asked whether or not you used illegal drugs, you should answer yes for the vicodin and yes for the adderall.

Look, if the drug wasn't prescribed to you then it's no different from going out and buying a street drug. Either way, you have broken the drug laws. This isn't about being straight edge and it's not about whether or not to use drugs. This is about the following - if you're going to work for a prosecutor then you shouldn't be abusing any drugs. If they ask you whether or not you have abused drugs in the past, you should be honest.

Also, if you were injured badly enough for vicodin, you needed to be treated by a physician. Otherwise, NSAIDS (ibuprofen, naproxifen, etc.) are widely available OTC and work extremely well for pain.

doctors are for pussies.

I suppose I elect to disagree with you. I would absolutely not disclose the vicodin use in the above example and would have a very clear conscience about it. Nor would that ever be discovered. Nor would anyone care if it WERE discovered.

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:04 pm

Voyager wrote:I suppose I elect to disagree with you. I would absolutely lie under oath about the vicodin use in the above example and would have a very clear conscience about it. Nor would that ever be discovered. Nor would anyone care if it WERE discovered.


Fixed, just so it's clear what we're talking about.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:07 pm

Renzo wrote:
Voyager wrote:I suppose I elect to disagree with you. I would absolutely lie under oath about the vicodin use in the above example and would have a very clear conscience about it. Nor would that ever be discovered. Nor would anyone care if it WERE discovered.


Fixed, just so it's clear what we're talking about.


Not sure why. I'd have to see the question prompt. Not clear to me I'd be lying under oath about a pain medication I took once.

You need to relax, by the way.

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:12 pm

Voyager wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Voyager wrote:I suppose I elect to disagree with you. I would absolutely lie under oath about the vicodin use in the above example and would have a very clear conscience about it. Nor would that ever be discovered. Nor would anyone care if it WERE discovered.


Fixed, just so it's clear what we're talking about.


Not sure why. I'd have to see the question prompt. Not clear to me I'd be lying under oath about a pain medication I took once.

You need to relax, by the way.
I really don't care what you do, but I want to make sure anyone reading the thread is clear on what advice you are giving.

The whole thread is about applying to the USAO. All of the background investigation forms associated with said application require a signed affirmation that they are true, under criminal penalty. And, the instructions say taking medication without a prescription counts as drug abuse. So yes, you'd be lying under oath. And yes, if someone finds out you lied under oath, they will care.

Voyager
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Voyager » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:14 pm

Renzo wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Voyager wrote:I suppose I elect to disagree with you. I would absolutely lie under oath about the vicodin use in the above example and would have a very clear conscience about it. Nor would that ever be discovered. Nor would anyone care if it WERE discovered.


Fixed, just so it's clear what we're talking about.


Not sure why. I'd have to see the question prompt. Not clear to me I'd be lying under oath about a pain medication I took once.

You need to relax, by the way.
I really don't care what you do, but I want to make sure anyone reading the thread is clear on what advice you are giving.

The whole thread is about applying to the USAO. All of the background investigation forms associated with said application require a signed affirmation that they are true, under criminal penalty. And, the instructions say taking medication without a prescription counts as drug abuse. So yes, you'd be lying under oath. And yes, if someone finds out you lied under oath, they will care.

I find that last bit absurd with regard to 1 vicodin tab I may or may not have taken at some point in my past to handle an injury. But ok, sure, I can respect your position.

You do need to relax, though.

Renzo
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Re: US Attorney's Office

Postby Renzo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:20 pm

Voyager wrote:I find that last bit absurd with regard to 1 vicodin tab I may or may not have taken at some point in my past to handle an injury.

So you think a little perjury will be ok?

No one does care about the Vicodin. But everyone everywhere will question your judgement, your fitness to practice law, and your moral character for lying about it (to the DOJ, no less).




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