The Future of Law is International

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International Law

Good
21
44%
Dank
27
56%
 
Total votes: 48

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MorningHood
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The Future of Law is International

Postby MorningHood » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:22 am

These articles might interest you:
http://transnationallawblog.typepad.com ... _of_l.html
It's not that I'm going overboard with the selective reading, but I think it's something worth considering.

Thread initially entitled "Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?
Name says all. But more specifically:

-I'm fluent in two languages: Korean and English (at a scholarly/academic level).
-I prefer to practice in the United States.
-Admitted to Duke so far, but still waiting for a higher ranked school at sticker price (Considering JD/LLM International Law)

Would any of you please tell me about the employment options available to international law JDs before I even entertain the idea of pursuing it?

Anything related to specific areas of practice, job market (supposedly it's really big, but this might just be the law schools trying to lure applicants), etc., are also welcome.
Last edited by MorningHood on Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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James Bond
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby James Bond » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:33 am

Almost as dank as bird law

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LawandOrder
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:32 am

You're about to feel foolish.

SgtLebowski
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby SgtLebowski » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:47 am

Some may consider Dank, better than the best. :wink: but I shall say no more.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby of Benito Cereno » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:54 am

Well people mean two things when they say 'international law': international law as in geneva convention and human rights ngos... yea, that doesn't exist. on the other hand, there is transnational law, as in working within multiple national legal systems. That does exist, I can attest to it personally as I know quite a few young attorneys working ny london, paris, zurich, and new york working on international commerce that are involved to some extent in 'trans-national law.' For example, a good friend from college who graduated Columbia two years ago now works in the Paris office of a V10 firm with a partner who advises French companies of American securities law and vice versa.

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MorningHood
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby MorningHood » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:02 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:Well people mean two things when they say 'international law': international law as in geneva convention and human rights ngos... yea, that doesn't exist. on the other hand, there is transnational law, as in working within multiple national legal systems. That does exist, I can attest to it personally as I know quite a few young attorneys working ny london, paris, zurich, and new york working on international commerce that are involved to some extent in 'trans-national law.' For example, a good friend from college who graduated Columbia two years ago now works in the Paris office of a V10 firm with a partner who advises French companies of American securities law and vice versa.


That's awesome! I meant more on the line of "transnational law."

I'm trying to figure out a niche and what not.. Although the Korean Bar is notoriously difficult (the quota is ridiculous), I'll probably be licensed in the United States while honing up my comparative law skills. I'd be flexible when it comes to crossing borders once in a while, but I'd prefer to call the U.S. my home.

When it comes to selecting an area of practice, what would offer the best bet? I'm very interested in International Tax and Securities Law.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Is International Law Any Good, or Just Dank?

Postby PLATONiC » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:43 am

James Bond wrote:Almost as dank as bird law


general consensus on tls.

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nealric
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby nealric » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:01 am

Yea - the law is indeed becoming more international. Your job will be outsourced to India.

270910
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby 270910 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:59 am

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/ ... e_the_hype

Your goals are fine, but you need to really refine them. Right now you are interested in a field that doesn't exist, and that's unfortunate, but there are still niches to explore. International tax certainly exists, but it's probably going to be more about finding a firm that has a cool tax practice with international type clients, you know? And there are firms that have offices abroad, they just won't be hiring people to handle their busy African human rights / Japanese whaling regulation dockets ;)

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gatorlion
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby gatorlion » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:05 pm

Be careful trumpeting the glorious future of international law here on TLS; there are some people for whom IL is as much a figment of popular mythology as are unicorns, leprechauns, and compassionate conservatism. I'm serving as TA for a course on International Law and the US Legal System right now, so I guess that means I'm either a ghost roaming the halls of the university or I'm delusional and strapped to a board inside a mental institution. Idiots...

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RVP11
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby RVP11 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:10 pm

gatorlion wrote:Be careful trumpeting the glorious future of international law here on TLS; there are some people for whom IL is as much a figment of popular mythology as are unicorns, leprechauns, and compassionate conservatism. I'm serving as TA for a course on International Law and the US Legal System right now, so I guess that means I'm either a ghost roaming the halls of the university or I'm delusional and strapped to a board inside a mental institution. Idiots...


No one has claimed that IL doesn't exist in academia. The claim is that it doesn't really exist in practice.

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jonas
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby jonas » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:52 pm

The meme on TLS is that international law somehow doesn't exist. That's wrong, of course. International law exists. Public international law exists, and so does private international law.

The World Trade Organization exists. The World Intellectual Property Organization exists. The International Telecommunication Union exists. The International Monetary Fund exists. The International Court of Justice exists. The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards exists. The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague exists. The European Court of Justice exists.

Treaty law, international jurisdiction, immunity of state actors, international environmental law, the law of the sea, international arbitration—these are increasingly important areas, particularly for big multinational law firms.

Many big firms in DC, New York, and London have thriving international law practices—especially international dispute resolution. See, e.g., Cleary, Allen & Overy, WilmerHale, Sullivan & Cromwell, Crowell & Moring, Steptoe & Johnson, McDermott Will & Emery, Clifford Chance, Freshfields, and Linklaters.

The international lawyers in these firms travel all over the world—Dubai, London, Paris, Geneva, Singapore—working on international arbitration, international trade, government contracts, etc. They work with international law every day.

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TTT-LS
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:57 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LawandOrder
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:08 pm

jonas wrote:The meme on TLS is that international law somehow doesn't exist. That's wrong, of course. International law exists. Public international law exists, and so does private international law.

The World Trade Organization exists. The World Intellectual Property Organization exists. The International Telecommunication Union exists. The International Monetary Fund exists. The International Court of Justice exists. The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards exists. The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague exists. The European Court of Justice exists.

Treaty law, international jurisdiction, immunity of state actors, international environmental law, the law of the sea, international arbitration—these are increasingly important areas, particularly for big multinational law firms.

Many big firms in DC, New York, and London have thriving international law practices—especially international dispute resolution. See, e.g., Cleary, Allen & Overy, WilmerHale, Sullivan & Cromwell, Crowell & Moring, Steptoe & Johnson, McDermott Will & Emery, Clifford Chance, Freshfields, and Linklaters.

The international lawyers in these firms travel all over the world—Dubai, London, Paris, Geneva, Singapore—working on international arbitration, international trade, government contracts, etc. They work with international law every day.


Listen to this drivel and you'll surely find yourself unemployed. Yes, these organizations exist. They are also (and this is the big one) incredibly selective and difficult to break into. Just because they exist does not mean that any given individual has a realistic chance of obtaining one of these positions.

Pursuing these positions is not smart career planning. If an opportunity arises to work for them, the opportunity can (should?) be seized. But do not plan on it. You will end up disappointed.

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TTT-LS
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:09 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:35 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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summerstar
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby summerstar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:40 pm

The ICC, human rights law, international child protection laws...yep, all irrelevant. Tell that to the souls that are looking to the international community for oversight and protection.
I know, why not combine the greed of BIGLAW with International law and go be a lawyer for TOYOTA?

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nealric
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby nealric » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:45 pm

The ICC, human rights law, international child protection laws...yep, all irrelevant. Tell that to the souls that are looking to the international community for oversight and protection.
I know, why not combine the greed of BIGLAW with International law and go be a lawyer for TOYOTA?

Image

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TTT-LS
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:46 pm

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Last edited by TTT-LS on Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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summerstar
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby summerstar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:49 pm

Oh, I see it alright. But, the constant implication here is that if it's not "BIGLAW!!!!" ( ooooh I'm so impressed!!!) it's not worth it.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:57 pm

LOL, folks, this is ridiculous.

OP, TLS is full of "I've heard another TLSers heard another TLSer saying 4 years ago that he'd read this book several years before that talking about this or that" types of "knowledge". TLSers tend to assume themselves experts which is obviously not the case. It's a mere reiteration of "I've read somewhere".

Law and Order, you always claim that IL does not exist. See, there is a huge different between non-existent and competitive. Harvard is competitive, so is Judicial clerkship, Cravath etc. Who said we, aspiring to practice IL (whoever implies what by it), are not competitive.

At least, when condescendingly laughing at someone's intentions and acting all cool and knowledgeable, research what you're talking about. Anna Ivey is not an authority I would follow no matter how good her advice regarding other things is. International law does exist, it just has different branches.

Seriously, it's annoying to read this type of comments every time some intl law thread comes up.
I rest my case.

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jonas
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby jonas » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:00 pm

ICJ, Hague, and ECJ, on the other hand, are absolutely irrelevant to law firm practice. You're trying to smuggle public international law and international criminal law into business law that happens to be international. The categories do not overlap, friend.

I disagree that the ECJ is "absolutely irrelevant to law firm practice." I think most international trade lawyers care very much about the ECJ's decisions. I also disagree about the ICJ and The Hague. U.S. firm lawyers have been heavily involved in the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal, for instance.

It's just not true that public and private international law don't overlap, or that public international law doesn't affect U.S. law firms. In my original post, I mentioned the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague. The PCA certainly impacts the work of U.S. firms. The PCA, created and governed by international agreements, helps resolve disputes not just between states but also involving private parties. This is not an example of "business law that happens to be international." It is international law.

LawandOrder can be a jerk and call this "drivel" if he wants, but it's the truth.

I agree that getting a job at, say, the ICJ is insanely difficult; I never suggested otherwise in my original post. In fact, I never mentioned anything about getting a job at any intergovernmental organization.

And I agree that going into a 2L interview with a firm and saying you want to do "international law" without any details is unwise. But I see nothing wrong in telling a firm that you're interested in its international dispute resolution or trade practice groups. Of course, you need to be ready to explain why.

I have to run now, but I would refer doubters to the "Private International Law" page on the State Dept's website, which is full of useful info.
http://www.state.gov/s/l/c3452.htm
Last edited by jonas on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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summerstar
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby summerstar » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:00 pm

David Cole.

I rest mine.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:02 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:LOL, folks, this is ridiculous.

OP, TLS is full of "I've heard another TLSers heard another TLSer saying 4 years ago that he'd read this book several years before that talking about this or that" types of "knowledge". TLSers tend to assume themselves experts which is obviously not the case. It's a mere reiteration of "I've read somewhere".

Law and Order, you always claim that IL does not exist. See, there is a huge different between non-existent and competitive. Harvard is competitive, so is Judicial clerkship, Cravath etc. Who said we, aspiring to practice IL (whoever implies what by it), are not competitive.

At least, when condescendingly laughing at someone's intentions and acting all cool and knowledgeable, research what you're talking about. Anna Ivey is not an authority I would follow no matter how good her advice regarding other things is. International law does exist, it just has different branches.

Seriously, it's annoying to read this type of comments every time some intl law thread comes up.
I rest my case.

:roll:
Did you actually read his 2nd post? The kid actually has a pretty good gov't job and has some knowledge in this area. I prefer him with a Rosie O'Donnel tar, but that's a topic for another day.

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nealric
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Re: The Future of Law is International

Postby nealric » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:41 pm

Law and Order, you always claim that IL does not exist. See, there is a huge different between non-existent and competitive. Harvard is competitive, so is Judicial clerkship, Cravath etc. Who said we, aspiring to practice IL (whoever implies what by it), are not competitive.


I agree, but there are certain types of international jobs that are so competitive that they are almost non-existent. For example, if someone said they were going to law school with the sole intention of being a SCOTUS clerk, one would have to say that's a poor reason to attend law school because it is so unlikely it will happen. Likewise, if someone says they are going to law school and seem to have the sole intention of being some kind of jet-setting international lawyer vindicating the rights of the oppressed or reordering global corporate governance over a 3 martini lunch, one would have to say that's a poor reason to attend.

One of the most difficult thing about the legal profession in general is that it can be very difficult to choose a practice area. You are at the mercy of the job market. It's certainly possible to choose general type of job, but not so easy to choose specific practice area. So if someone decides they want to do public interest, they probably can. If someone decides they want to do one super-specific area of public interest to the exclusion of all others, they might not be lucky enough to get into that field.




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