Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:46 pm
They should.avacado111 wrote:threads like this make me nervous....
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https://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=101974
They should.avacado111 wrote:threads like this make me nervous....
So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?OperaSoprano wrote:This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.
Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.
It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.
Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.
+1thesealocust wrote:crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.
This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?
We won't really know until more numbers come out. In terms of % of 2L's with jobs lined up (as of this past fall), the numbers I've heard thrown around seem pretty much the same for MVPBDN: 50-60%. The outliers seem to be GULC and Cornell, but I'm not convinced even those numbers are appreciably worse in reality (could be an issue of reporting all jobs versus just biglaw, etc).thesealocust wrote:This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.
Not necessarily. If each firm is looking to hire only a certain number of Northwestern grads then there are only so many spots available, and the Northwestern students are competing against the other Northwesten students (who also have WE) for those same spots. Firms like to hire from a variety of top schools for a number of practical and political (a certain partner wenty there, maintain relations with university, etc.) reasons.thesealocust wrote:This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.
And what the hell do you think student loan payments are?CE2JD wrote:So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?OperaSoprano wrote:This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.
Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.
It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.
Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.
Wow.
Just for the sake of other posters who are thinking of doing something similar, wouldn't this ruin your credit?CE2JD wrote:So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?OperaSoprano wrote:This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.
Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.
It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.
Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.
Wow.
Yeah, because surely no one else in the T14 has anything like that...Doritos wrote:I was so excited when I found out I was going to a T14 next fall....then I started regularly reading the legal employment forum....
Here's hoping my hard work, decent intelligence and URM status will enable me to feed myself after law school...
Bankhead wrote:Yeah, because surely no one else in the T14 has anything like that...Doritos wrote:I was so excited when I found out I was going to a T14 next fall....then I started regularly reading the legal employment forum....
Here's hoping my hard work, decent intelligence and URM status will enable me to feed myself after law school...
This makes sense but at the same time if you're working for deloitte why go to law school??? Its not like its exactly easy to get a job at one of those big 5 finance firms...This is interesting that you brought up the importance of WE. I had a lunch a couple days ago with a big law partner who helps a lot with the hiring at his firm (he's a partner at one of the 7 Canadian national firms) and he said that he has been seeing a trend in applicants who are applying with no w/e, no experience in a big firm, nothing. and expect to get hired because their grades are good. He likes to see strong grades, but in his eyes a A+ applicant with no previous work experience will not be as successful as a B+ applicant with solid work experience at a big firm. Hiring is a little different in Canada, in that the school you attend is not as important, it barely registers with him. The two things he looks for most is work experience and grades. People without work experience have to work MUCH harder to get past the screening interview than their peers who have serious W/E, and some of their resumes go straight to the recycling even though they are in the top 20%. He told me not to go to law school until I had done something useful. I am going to work at Deloitte, and he said that if I get my CPA with a few years at Deloitte, go to law school, get a B+ average, the big law firms will be drooling over me. Of course, this is Canada and our legal market isn't in tatters so take it for what it's worth.
Most schools will take this money during financial aid assessments of your ability to pay for your 1st or 2nd (maybe 3rd) years of school. Unless you're paying tuition some other way (which doesn't make sense, given talk of loan repayment), that money won't be available for loan payments - it'll already have gone toward tuition.ruleser wrote: One last thing - I agree with above poster about saving - another reason to work first. If you work a few years and have, say, 20-20-25k in the bank, you have your loan payment covered for 1-2 years. That is no small thing. That gives you a couple pressure free years to start out your career. If you are not someone whose parents will pay tuition/help if disaster strikes, and you don't get a big scholarship to your chosen school, a delay to take this route might be worth it. Just ask yourself, would you be as panicked if you had a 5 -year resume/field you came from, some contacts/knowledge of the working world/fallback options, and 30K in the bank?
There are ways to make this sort of money not appear if you sit down with someone who helps plan educational funding for a living. There are all sorts of mechanisms that will allow money to accrue interest while not being considered 'tappable' assets. Honestly, even if you have the cash on hand it is often better to pay with loans while said cash accrues interest (that is if you are able to secure subsidized loans, i.e. the government covers the interest payments while you are in school).Anonymous User wrote:Most schools will take this money during financial aid assessments of your ability to pay for your 1st or 2nd (maybe 3rd) years of school. Unless you're paying tuition some other way (which doesn't make sense, given talk of loan repayment), that money won't be available for loan payments - it'll already have gone toward tuition.ruleser wrote: One last thing - I agree with above poster about saving - another reason to work first. If you work a few years and have, say, 20-20-25k in the bank, you have your loan payment covered for 1-2 years. That is no small thing. That gives you a couple pressure free years to start out your career. If you are not someone whose parents will pay tuition/help if disaster strikes, and you don't get a big scholarship to your chosen school, a delay to take this route might be worth it. Just ask yourself, would you be as panicked if you had a 5 -year resume/field you came from, some contacts/knowledge of the working world/fallback options, and 30K in the bank?
Currently my law school plans are on hold due to going to work for Deloitte, even if I hate accounting, my plan is to grind it out for a couple for a couple years and get my Chartered Accountant designation and then go to law school. However if I decide I enjoy accounting or end up getting a nice in house gig somewhere (Vancouver Canucks please please please please please), then law school probably won't ever happen.pjo wrote:This makes sense but at the same time if you're working for deloitte why go to law school??? Its not like its exactly easy to get a job at one of those big 5 finance firms...This is interesting that you brought up the importance of WE. I had a lunch a couple days ago with a big law partner who helps a lot with the hiring at his firm (he's a partner at one of the 7 Canadian national firms) and he said that he has been seeing a trend in applicants who are applying with no w/e, no experience in a big firm, nothing. and expect to get hired because their grades are good. He likes to see strong grades, but in his eyes a A+ applicant with no previous work experience will not be as successful as a B+ applicant with solid work experience at a big firm. Hiring is a little different in Canada, in that the school you attend is not as important, it barely registers with him. The two things he looks for most is work experience and grades. People without work experience have to work MUCH harder to get past the screening interview than their peers who have serious W/E, and some of their resumes go straight to the recycling even though they are in the top 20%. He told me not to go to law school until I had done something useful. I am going to work at Deloitte, and he said that if I get my CPA with a few years at Deloitte, go to law school, get a B+ average, the big law firms will be drooling over me. Of course, this is Canada and our legal market isn't in tatters so take it for what it's worth.
You're a moron. This was a brutal year for everyone, including a lot of people above median at T14s. A lot of transfer students in to the T6 had trouble this year as well, and transfers in to HYSCCNB typically do very well.dgouzoul wrote:top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever
TITCRITEToTransferOrNot wrote:You're a moron. This was a brutal year for everyone, including a lot of people above median at T14s. A lot of transfer students in to the T6 had trouble this year as well, and transfers in to HYSCCNB typically do very well.dgouzoul wrote:top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever
Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.sawwaverunner wrote:Just for the sake of other posters who are thinking of doing something similar, wouldn't this ruin your credit?CE2JD wrote:So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?OperaSoprano wrote:This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.
Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.
It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.
Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.
Wow.
Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.
But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.
fucking morons
Good lessons they are teaching you.EdmundBurke23 wrote:Good thing my parents are willing to pay sticker prices for me... I don't have to pay a single penny for law school. Not even living expenses:D!!! they're willing to drop $70K a year for my education.
I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).biggamejames wrote:Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.
But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.
fucking morons
Oh. Where did Opera say he was down with wage garnishment? I'm not trying to be dense, I just can't sort this last few posts out.CE2JD wrote:I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).biggamejames wrote:Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.
But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.
fucking morons
paralegals make way more than 40K right out of undergrad.FuturehoyaLawya wrote: parelegals make more than 40K, unless before you started, you had no job, no work experience, no previous debt, then i guess that would be an improvement. however, in general, it's difficult to think you invested over 100K for a 40,000 salary or worse no job at all after graduating from t-14.
I don't really know or care what Opera said.biggamejames wrote:Oh. Where did Opera say he was down with wage garnishment? I'm not trying to be dense, I just can't sort this last few posts out.CE2JD wrote:I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).biggamejames wrote:Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.
But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.
fucking morons