how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

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CE2JD
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:46 pm

avacado111 wrote:threads like this make me nervous....


They should.

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CE2JD
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:50 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?

Wow.

Bill James
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Bill James » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:08 pm

thesealocust wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.


This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?


+1

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rayiner
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby rayiner » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:22 pm

thesealocust wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.


This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?


We won't really know until more numbers come out. In terms of % of 2L's with jobs lined up (as of this past fall), the numbers I've heard thrown around seem pretty much the same for MVPBDN: 50-60%. The outliers seem to be GULC and Cornell, but I'm not convinced even those numbers are appreciably worse in reality (could be an issue of reporting all jobs versus just biglaw, etc).

bahama
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby bahama » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:18 pm

thesealocust wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.


This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?


Not necessarily. If each firm is looking to hire only a certain number of Northwestern grads then there are only so many spots available, and the Northwestern students are competing against the other Northwesten students (who also have WE) for those same spots. Firms like to hire from a variety of top schools for a number of practical and political (a certain partner wenty there, maintain relations with university, etc.) reasons.

Also, given the economy, maybe these firms that usually hire a lot from Northwestern are chosing HYS students or others who they normally wouldn't get.

Bankhead
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Bankhead » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:22 pm

CE2JD wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?

Wow.


And what the hell do you think student loan payments are?

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Doritos
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Doritos » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:23 pm

I was so excited when I found out I was going to a T14 next fall....then I started regularly reading the legal employment forum....

Here's hoping my hard work, decent intelligence and URM status will enable me to feed myself after law school...

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sawwaverunner
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby sawwaverunner » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:30 pm

CE2JD wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?

Wow.


Just for the sake of other posters who are thinking of doing something similar, wouldn't this ruin your credit?

Bankhead
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Bankhead » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:34 pm

Doritos wrote:I was so excited when I found out I was going to a T14 next fall....then I started regularly reading the legal employment forum....

Here's hoping my hard work, decent intelligence and URM status will enable me to feed myself after law school...


Yeah, because surely no one else in the T14 has anything like that...

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Doritos
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Doritos » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:36 pm

Bankhead wrote:
Doritos wrote:I was so excited when I found out I was going to a T14 next fall....then I started regularly reading the legal employment forum....

Here's hoping my hard work, decent intelligence and URM status will enable me to feed myself after law school...


Yeah, because surely no one else in the T14 has anything like that...



That's why I'm hoping and not expecting

edit: Though is it that unreasonable to expect enough money to not be homeless after graduating from one of the top 14 law schools in the country? If it is then may god help the other 90% of graduates who did not attend such an institution. I am not expecting Biglaw or even a prestigious awesome job, however, I do expect to not have to go to soup kitchens. Everyone else does too or you would not be considering law school unless you got into HYS.

littlebit
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby littlebit » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:55 pm

Remember that after the first year you can (and should) work during law school. Jobs 1L usually don't pay but can lead to part time jobs during the school year. Most of my 2L friends work 15 - 20 hours per week without a problem. Firm jobs usually pay 2L's around $30 per hour, R.A.'s (research assts) make around $12 per hour. During the 2L summer you should be able to make some serious money, around 3K per week, that will help or might even offset the cost of your third year. The added benefit is that you graduate with some experience and hopefully a better idea of the type of law you want to practice. I am not sure why everyone is assuming that they will need to borrow the full amount of tuition plus COL for all three years. This might be a good reason to look at the location of the school you chose and the opportunities for employment during the school year.

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pjo
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby pjo » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:59 pm

This is interesting that you brought up the importance of WE. I had a lunch a couple days ago with a big law partner who helps a lot with the hiring at his firm (he's a partner at one of the 7 Canadian national firms) and he said that he has been seeing a trend in applicants who are applying with no w/e, no experience in a big firm, nothing. and expect to get hired because their grades are good. He likes to see strong grades, but in his eyes a A+ applicant with no previous work experience will not be as successful as a B+ applicant with solid work experience at a big firm. Hiring is a little different in Canada, in that the school you attend is not as important, it barely registers with him. The two things he looks for most is work experience and grades. People without work experience have to work MUCH harder to get past the screening interview than their peers who have serious W/E, and some of their resumes go straight to the recycling even though they are in the top 20%. He told me not to go to law school until I had done something useful. I am going to work at Deloitte, and he said that if I get my CPA with a few years at Deloitte, go to law school, get a B+ average, the big law firms will be drooling over me. Of course, this is Canada and our legal market isn't in tatters so take it for what it's worth.


This makes sense but at the same time if you're working for deloitte why go to law school??? Its not like its exactly easy to get a job at one of those big 5 finance firms...

Anonymous User
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:05 pm

ruleser wrote: One last thing - I agree with above poster about saving - another reason to work first. If you work a few years and have, say, 20-20-25k in the bank, you have your loan payment covered for 1-2 years. That is no small thing. That gives you a couple pressure free years to start out your career. If you are not someone whose parents will pay tuition/help if disaster strikes, and you don't get a big scholarship to your chosen school, a delay to take this route might be worth it. Just ask yourself, would you be as panicked if you had a 5 -year resume/field you came from, some contacts/knowledge of the working world/fallback options, and 30K in the bank?


Most schools will take this money during financial aid assessments of your ability to pay for your 1st or 2nd (maybe 3rd) years of school. Unless you're paying tuition some other way (which doesn't make sense, given talk of loan repayment), that money won't be available for loan payments - it'll already have gone toward tuition.

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Rand M.
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Rand M. » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ruleser wrote: One last thing - I agree with above poster about saving - another reason to work first. If you work a few years and have, say, 20-20-25k in the bank, you have your loan payment covered for 1-2 years. That is no small thing. That gives you a couple pressure free years to start out your career. If you are not someone whose parents will pay tuition/help if disaster strikes, and you don't get a big scholarship to your chosen school, a delay to take this route might be worth it. Just ask yourself, would you be as panicked if you had a 5 -year resume/field you came from, some contacts/knowledge of the working world/fallback options, and 30K in the bank?


Most schools will take this money during financial aid assessments of your ability to pay for your 1st or 2nd (maybe 3rd) years of school. Unless you're paying tuition some other way (which doesn't make sense, given talk of loan repayment), that money won't be available for loan payments - it'll already have gone toward tuition.


There are ways to make this sort of money not appear if you sit down with someone who helps plan educational funding for a living. There are all sorts of mechanisms that will allow money to accrue interest while not being considered 'tappable' assets. Honestly, even if you have the cash on hand it is often better to pay with loans while said cash accrues interest (that is if you are able to secure subsidized loans, i.e. the government covers the interest payments while you are in school).

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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby crazycanuck » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:54 pm

pjo wrote:
This is interesting that you brought up the importance of WE. I had a lunch a couple days ago with a big law partner who helps a lot with the hiring at his firm (he's a partner at one of the 7 Canadian national firms) and he said that he has been seeing a trend in applicants who are applying with no w/e, no experience in a big firm, nothing. and expect to get hired because their grades are good. He likes to see strong grades, but in his eyes a A+ applicant with no previous work experience will not be as successful as a B+ applicant with solid work experience at a big firm. Hiring is a little different in Canada, in that the school you attend is not as important, it barely registers with him. The two things he looks for most is work experience and grades. People without work experience have to work MUCH harder to get past the screening interview than their peers who have serious W/E, and some of their resumes go straight to the recycling even though they are in the top 20%. He told me not to go to law school until I had done something useful. I am going to work at Deloitte, and he said that if I get my CPA with a few years at Deloitte, go to law school, get a B+ average, the big law firms will be drooling over me. Of course, this is Canada and our legal market isn't in tatters so take it for what it's worth.


This makes sense but at the same time if you're working for deloitte why go to law school??? Its not like its exactly easy to get a job at one of those big 5 finance firms...


Currently my law school plans are on hold due to going to work for Deloitte, even if I hate accounting, my plan is to grind it out for a couple for a couple years and get my Chartered Accountant designation and then go to law school. However if I decide I enjoy accounting or end up getting a nice in house gig somewhere (Vancouver Canucks please please please please please), then law school probably won't ever happen.

I hang around here because it can sometimes be entertaining, I am bored at my current job (front desk at a small hotel), and very rarely I can offer an insightful piece of advice (lol). It's also fun to be a Canadian on an American board.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:08 pm

dgouzoul wrote:top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever


You're a moron. This was a brutal year for everyone, including a lot of people above median at T14s. A lot of transfer students in to the T6 had trouble this year as well, and transfers in to HYSCCNB typically do very well.

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dgouzoul
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby dgouzoul » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:16 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
dgouzoul wrote:top 30% at t-14 huh? and total strikeout with OCI and small firms? Flame or OP has no people skills whatsoever


You're a moron. This was a brutal year for everyone, including a lot of people above median at T14s. A lot of transfer students in to the T6 had trouble this year as well, and transfers in to HYSCCNB typically do very well.


TITCRITE

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CE2JD
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:47 pm

sawwaverunner wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


So basically, you're okay with wage garnishment?

Wow.


Just for the sake of other posters who are thinking of doing something similar, wouldn't this ruin your credit?


Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.

But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.


fucking morons

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biggamejames
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby biggamejames » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:52 pm

CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.

But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.


fucking morons

Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:54 pm

Good thing my parents are willing to pay sticker prices for me... I don't have to pay a single penny for law school. Not even living expenses:D!!! they're willing to drop $70K a year for my education.

dakatz
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby dakatz » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:56 pm

EdmundBurke23 wrote:Good thing my parents are willing to pay sticker prices for me... I don't have to pay a single penny for law school. Not even living expenses:D!!! they're willing to drop $70K a year for my education.


Good lessons they are teaching you.

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CE2JD
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:58 pm

biggamejames wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.

But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.


fucking morons

Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.


I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).

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biggamejames
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby biggamejames » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:02 pm

CE2JD wrote:
biggamejames wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.

But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.


fucking morons

Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.


I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).

Oh. Where did Opera say he was down with wage garnishment? I'm not trying to be dense, I just can't sort this last few posts out.

Pearalegal
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby Pearalegal » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:03 pm

FuturehoyaLawya wrote:parelegals make more than 40K, unless before you started, you had no job, no work experience, no previous debt, then i guess that would be an improvement. however, in general, it's difficult to think you invested over 100K for a 40,000 salary or worse no job at all after graduating from t-14.


paralegals make way more than 40K right out of undergrad.

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CE2JD
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby CE2JD » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:39 pm

biggamejames wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
biggamejames wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Uhhh... yeah. And also your whole entire fucking life.

But don't take my word for it. I hope you all try it and find out the hard way.


fucking morons

Wait, what is wrong with LRAP and why is it like wage garnishment? I don't get it.


I was referring to ACTUAL wage garnishment, which is a real possibility if you default on your student loans which you CANNOT get rid of in bankruptcy courts (in the vast, overwhelming majority of cases).

Oh. Where did Opera say he was down with wage garnishment? I'm not trying to be dense, I just can't sort this last few posts out.


I don't really know or care what Opera said.

I was simply replying to a comment that I read as asking whether wage garnishment (actual wage garnishment) ruins your credit or not. It does. And wage garnishment is the result of not being able to pay off your student loans (after a really long time of not paying of course).




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