how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

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rayiner
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:06 pm

KidA23 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:It seems that a lot of people who are saying that they were top 30% and at a T14 who missed out at OCI's had no work experience prior to LS. Coincidence? I think not.


This is certainly an attractive theory, but then wouldn't Northwestern be kicking ass and taking names ITE?


We won't really know until more numbers come out. In terms of % of 2L's with jobs lined up (as of this past fall), the numbers I've heard thrown around seem pretty much the same for MVPBDN: 50-60%. The outliers seem to be GULC and Cornell, but I'm not convinced even those numbers are appreciably worse in reality (could be an issue of reporting all jobs versus just biglaw, etc).


Not to derail this thread, but the numbers rumored here around Cornell are precisely in that range 50-60% range you mentioned for those other upper T-14s. Nothing definite or concrete obviously, but that's pretty in line with what must have us have heard there.


Thats what I expected. I've seen 40% thrown around on this forum, but as I said, I have no idea what that refers to.

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crazycanuck
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby crazycanuck » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:02 pm

NayBoer wrote:
dgouzoul wrote:haha subtle trolling...I believe it is big 4 now
Deloitte, PwC, E&Y, KPMG is how I understand it. I'm gearing for tax law so I want to be ready to go big 4 as an alternative to biglaw.


Yep those are the 4, not sure what order, or if there even is an order though.

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NayBoer
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby NayBoer » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:43 pm

crazycanuck wrote:
NayBoer wrote:
dgouzoul wrote:haha subtle trolling...I believe it is big 4 now
Deloitte, PwC, E&Y, KPMG is how I understand it. I'm gearing for tax law so I want to be ready to go big 4 as an alternative to biglaw.


Yep those are the 4, not sure what order, or if there even is an order though.
They're all huge and 4 to 5 times bigger than BDO, the next biggest, so in a sense it doesn't matter much.

The firms seem to vary within each brand network and so it may not make much sense to impart too many characteristics of the networks onto individual firms or vice versa.

postitnotes
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby postitnotes » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:46 pm

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Last edited by postitnotes on Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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MC Southstar
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby MC Southstar » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:47 pm

I have two friends who graduated '09 that are working at the big 4, it doesn't seem they are doing that bad in this economy.

interestedbyestander
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby interestedbyestander » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:18 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


Is this for real????

I know a lot of law school students get badly into debt but I don't think I have ever seen anyone do it so knowing they do not plan on ever paying it back and yet so willingly and unashamingly pleased with her decision.

How can a 22-year old have any idea what they want to be doing in 10, 15, or 25 years from now? It sounds like you have removed any chance to get ahead or try something different for yourself.

What if you discover you don't like law? Or don't like PI? Or wish you could take a few years off to have a family?

Maybe I'm just missing something here about LRAP or IBR, but it sounds like an awful yoke around your neck during the most productive earning years of your life.

09042014
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Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:24 am

interestedbyestander wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


Is this for real????

I know a lot of law school students get badly into debt but I don't think I have ever seen anyone do it so knowing they do not plan on ever paying it back and yet so willingly and unashamingly pleased with her decision.

How can a 22-year old have any idea what they want to be doing in 10, 15, or 25 years from now? It sounds like you have removed any chance to get ahead or try something different for yourself.

What if you discover you don't like law? Or don't like PI? Or wish you could take a few years off to have a family?

Maybe I'm just missing something here about LRAP or IBR, but it sounds like an awful yoke around your neck during the most productive earning years of your life.


IMO its not worse than relying on getting a big law job to pay it back, and probably more realistic, since IBR jobs should be easier to find.

interestedbyestander
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:44 am

Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby interestedbyestander » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:30 am

Desert Fox wrote:
interestedbyestander wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Oblomov wrote:The simple answer is that you're never going to.

Assuming the income based repayment program continues to exist, you'll pay a reasonable chunk of your income for the next ten to thirty years to have the rest of the debt forgiven. Any other time a person would be wise to declare bankruptcy, but that's not going to fix the situation, is it? Welcome to indentured servitude.


This. I will owe in excess of $200k, and I'm never going to pay it back, but then I knew that before I even matriculated. Emphasis here on "reasonable chunk of your income," even without the assistance of your school's LRAP. IBR is the reason many of us can go to law school in the first place. Payments are capped at around 10% of your income (this varies depending upon income bracket and number of dependents), and this is an insanely good deal even for people who won't be doing PI. FYI, debt is forgiven for everyone else after 25 years. At present, there is still a tax penalty for non PI folks, but this may be eliminated by the time we actually need to invoke forgiveness.

It's not ideal to have to borrow like this in the first place, but I believe our education is a privilege that we're seriously lucky to have. I didn't think the price was too great. If I'm unemployed two and a half years hence, maybe I'll think differently, but I expect to make around $40k/year at a nonprofit, and hopefully this expectation is in line with reality.

Note to the above: I'm paying sticker at Fordham, and wouldn't be anywhere else for the world, but then I've been a NYC resident for some time, and know how to live happily here on a modest income. I've calculated exactly what I'll be paying under IBR after my LRAP kicks in, and I'll pay back somewhere in the neighborhood of $25-30k all inclusive, before my loans are forgiven. I've managed to defy the law student stereotype by being a pretty happy (run up to finals excluded) 1L. I'm living on student loans, and do not have a ton of extra money, but I'm surrounded by friends, and I live six blocks north of my school. I would love to be eligible for a 2L scholarship, and I'm trying for a summer PI grant, but those things would be icing at this point.


Is this for real????

I know a lot of law school students get badly into debt but I don't think I have ever seen anyone do it so knowing they do not plan on ever paying it back and yet so willingly and unashamingly pleased with her decision.

How can a 22-year old have any idea what they want to be doing in 10, 15, or 25 years from now? It sounds like you have removed any chance to get ahead or try something different for yourself.

What if you discover you don't like law? Or don't like PI? Or wish you could take a few years off to have a family?

Maybe I'm just missing something here about LRAP or IBR, but it sounds like an awful yoke around your neck during the most productive earning years of your life.


IMO its not worse than relying on getting a big law job to pay it back, and probably more realistic, since IBR jobs should be easier to find.


I suppose my point was that both options are rather crazy (paying $200k for a T30 school or strangling yourself with a $40k salary in NYC for life in a job you can't quit).

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: how on earth are we ever going to pay off loans?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:40 am

interestedbyestander wrote:
I suppose my point was that both options are rather crazy (paying $200k for a T30 school or strangling yourself with a $40k salary in NYC for life).


OS wants public interest law, and IBR will let her do it. You may not like her choice, but its not really crazy. And it won't be for life, ten years. After that one could jump into private practice and probably do well.

Paying full price at a T30 and hoping to pay it off with big law is probably pretty crazy right now. Its like gambling 200K on an 8-1 horse at the track, and if you do win you still have work 70 hours for 5 years to get your money back.




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