2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

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twistedwrister
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2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:10 pm

Yale: 28
Harvard: 25
NYU: 21
Columbia: 17
Stanford: 14
Chicago: 12
Penn: 9
UVA: 8
Michigan: 6
Boalt: 5

Got the numbers from lawclerkaddict.com, and I can't vouch for their accuracy. However, since I'm an NYU 2L interested in clerking, I'm happy to see that NYU's efforts to ramp up clerkships are paying off. Please feel free to chime in and discuss.

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kurama20
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:13 pm

That Stanford number seems off, there's no way only 14 of them are getting COA clerkships this year. Usually about 14 Stanford grads clerk on the 9th alone. These must not be the final numbers.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:15 pm

kurama20 wrote:That Stanford number seems off, there's no way only 14 of them are getting COA clerkships this year. Usually about 14 Stanford grads clerk on the 9th alone. These must not be the final numbers.


Like I said, I can't vouch for the numbers, and they are probably far from final. Nonetheless, I'm glad to see that NYU is doing well up to this point.

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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:45 pm

I know you prefaced w/ the disclaimer that lawclerkaddict numbers are likely off, but just to confirm: Michigan has at least 20, between students and alums, for 2010-11. Probably a few more.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:46 pm

Isn't LCA based on user submissions?

Esc
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby Esc » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:01 pm

These numbers are way off and in no way final. Harvard and Yale are going to have way way way more than ~25. Texas has 19, if I'm correctly recalling the latest numbers.

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kurama20
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby kurama20 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Esc wrote:These numbers are way off and in no way final. Harvard and Yale are going to have way way way more than ~25. Texas has 19, if I'm correctly recalling the latest numbers.



I just want to say that after researching UT lately, they have really shot up in terms of how much respect I give them. UT is really the closest school to being a top 14 that isn't, honestly I really don't see how they are any worse than Cornell, the two schools just have different focuses. With the way the Texas economy is going compared to other markets, and the respect that UT gets in Texas, I actually think they are a better deal when you look at the tuition than some of the top 14 schools.

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chadwick218
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:55 pm

This does seem off or incomplete. I am aware of at least a couple NU students who will be clerking on the COA.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:11 pm

chadwick218 wrote:This does seem off or incomplete. I am aware of at least a couple NU students who will be clerking on the COA.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my original post...I didn't run the numbers for every school with at least one COA clerk. Again, according to lawclerkaddict, Texas has 8 and Northwestern has 2 for 2010-11.

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chadwick218
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:34 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:This does seem off or incomplete. I am aware of at least a couple NU students who will be clerking on the COA.


I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my original post...I didn't run the numbers for every school with at least one COA clerk. Again, according to lawclerkaddict, Texas has 8 and Northwestern has 2 for 2010-11.


Thanks, the Texas 8 does not surprise me, but I am suprised that NU can claims 2!

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TTT-LS
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby TTT-LS » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:40 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:29 pm

TTT-LS wrote:(1) If we got clurker in here (the guy who runs LCA), he would admit that he has not gone through all the comments to update the 2010-11 numbers. So even if we take LCA data on its own terms, the summary tables at the top of each COA page are incomplete. To get an accurate LCA count, you'd have to comb through the comments on each page and update the tables accordingly. And even then there'd be the inherent limitation of self-reported data. To repeat a point I've made elsewhere, while LCA data is not ideal, it is by far the best resource available, so I am not meaning to criticize it.

(2) The number for NU is at least 8 according to what I know, excluding alumni, and I have nowhere near complete info.


Thanks for this insight. I just calculated the "clerk per capita" numbers below (again, based on the admittedly incomplete LCA information and not for every school).

Yale: 0.148
Stanford: 0.082
Chicago: 0.063
NYU: 0.047
Harvard: 0.045
Columbia: 0.043
Penn: 0.035
UVA: 0.022
Boalt: 0.019
Michigan: 0.017

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mallard
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby mallard » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:12 pm

These numbers seem way off, not sure what else there is to discuss.

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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:30 pm

mallard wrote:These numbers seem way off, not sure what else there is to discuss.


What makes you think the numbers are way off? Certainly the data is incomplete, but there is no reason, statistically, to believe that the data is any "more incomplete" for any particular school on the list. If you have any specific information to share on the topic, it would certainly be welcome.

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mallard
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby mallard » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:33 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
mallard wrote:These numbers seem way off, not sure what else there is to discuss.


What makes you think the numbers are way off? Certainly the data is incomplete, but there is no reason, statistically, to believe that the data is any "more incomplete" for any particular school on the list. If you have any specific information to share on the topic, it would certainly be welcome.


Among other things, http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chool.html.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:48 pm

mallard wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:
mallard wrote:These numbers seem way off, not sure what else there is to discuss.


What makes you think the numbers are way off? Certainly the data is incomplete, but there is no reason, statistically, to believe that the data is any "more incomplete" for any particular school on the list. If you have any specific information to share on the topic, it would certainly be welcome.


Among other things, http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chool.html.


Great! Thanks for passing that along. It is certainly useful information. My calculations were based on 2010-11 data, but the 2009 summary provides another interesting data set for people to take a look at.

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mallard
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby mallard » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:54 pm

It also suggests that the incompleteness of the current data set does indeed vary by school. Where's Georgetown? Where are fifty or sixty more Harvard clerks?

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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:59 pm

I know at Emory, there are at least 3 (think there's more, but the official list hasn't been released to the student body) who have COA clerkships. One on the 9th, other two on the 11th.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:13 pm

mallard wrote:It also suggests that the incompleteness of the current data set does indeed vary by school. Where's Georgetown? Where are fifty or sixty more Harvard clerks?


Perhaps. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I did not run the numbers for every school. According to LCA, Georgetown has 8 COA clerks for 2010-11.

Regarding the fifty or sixty more Harvard clerks, that is an interesting issue. Some schools' 2009 numbers are quite comparable to their 2010 numbers (e.g., Yale: 33 in 2009, 28 in 2010; NYU: 27 in 2009, 21 in 2010; Columbia: 16 in 2009, 17 in 2010). Others show a significant disparity (e.g., Harvard). There are several possible explanations for this.

(1) Harvard students just didn't get as many COA clerkships this year.
(2) Some schools (Yale, NYU, Columbia) report their clerkship data at a much higher rate than other schools (Harvard) do.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

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TTT-LS
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby TTT-LS » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:43 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:11 pm

TTT-LS wrote:At some point "according to LCA" ceases to be an adequate response. When you can look at the data and know immediately (based on past, more complete data) that it isn't a good basis for comparisons between schools, you shouldn't make comparisons. Maybe, once the 2010-11 data is all reflected in the summary tables comparisons will be possible. Until then, there's not really much of substance that can be said--which was mallard's point in the first place.


Point taken. I didn't start this thread to imply that School X is better than School Y, or anything of the sort. I started it because (1) I thought it was an interesting topic, and (2) as an NYU student, I'm happy that we are placing so many clerks on the COA. That couldn't be said 5 or so years ago. Perhaps the data is not a good basis for comparison, but perhaps it is. Neither of us knows, but as you mentioned earlier in the thread, it's the best we've got for now.

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The Brainalist
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby The Brainalist » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:00 pm

mallard wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:
mallard wrote:These numbers seem way off, not sure what else there is to discuss.


What makes you think the numbers are way off? Certainly the data is incomplete, but there is no reason, statistically, to believe that the data is any "more incomplete" for any particular school on the list. If you have any specific information to share on the topic, it would certainly be welcome.


Among other things, http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ ... chool.html.


Not saying that the numbers now will be a reflection of the total, but Harvard came in with 58 total in 2007, so there are going to be some aberrant years, especially when Yale and Stanford decide that law firms aren't worth it for whatever reason since they seem to pick up that slack.

Clearly, though, the total tally isn't in. Judging by the 9th and 2nd circuits, only about half have reported compared to last year. That doesn't mean that the trend won't continue, though, leaving Harvard with only about 50 clerks total. Given the state of the law market, I could see two things happening. 1- That a lot of current clerks are opting for a second (third?)year, so there may not be as many hires as before. 2- That, as that one writer chick from Yale (as read on ATL) said, Yalees are passing on the deferrals in favor of clerking, and outcompeting Harvard in doing so.

NYU's numbers do seem anomalous, though. Could be their career services office is taking initiative in reporting with the clerk addict site, and they are just better at the game.

Edited to clarify that NYU's number seem anomalous if the trend continues, basically doubling the total.

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The Brainalist
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby The Brainalist » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:14 pm

Sorry about the second post, but I just thought of an alternative explanation that may be interesting.

So clerking was supposed to be flooded, according to the addict site, by a 60% or so increase in apps. I assume New York was the most affected by no-offers, withdrawn-offers, lay-offs, and deferrals. Is it possible that this may inure to the benefit of the New York schools with respect to clerking, since they have more people seeking alternative employment, including people who were the top of the class? I'm thinking this could create a scenario forcing NYU's and Columbia's top students to forgo the usual firms and actually get in the mix against less-than-stellar Harvard students who usually self-select into clerking. Just a thought.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:18 pm

Brainalist - thanks, that is great info. It is quite possible that NYU is "gaming the system" by diligently reporting clerkships to LCA. There has definitely been a big push at the school to place more of the top students in clerkships. NYU's 2010-11 numbers do look significantly higher than last year's, if you infer that only half or so of the data has been reported (which looks like a pretty good estimate to me). However, I would point out that Columbia's and Yale's numbers also look anomolous using the same calculation -- both are on pace to have twice as many COA clerks in 2010 as they did in 2009. Thanks again for the post.

twistedwrister
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Re: 2010-11 COA Clerkship Numbers By School

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:26 pm

The Brainalist wrote:Sorry about the second post, but I just thought of an alternative explanation that may be interesting.

So clerking was supposed to be flooded, according to the addict site, by a 60% or so increase in apps. I assume New York was the most affected by no-offers, withdrawn-offers, lay-offs, and deferrals. Is it possible that this may inure to the benefit of the New York schools with respect to clerking, since they have more people seeking alternative employment, including people who were the top of the class? I'm thinking this could create a scenario forcing NYU's and Columbia's top students to forgo the usual firms and actually get in the mix against less-than-stellar Harvard students who usually self-select into clerking. Just a thought.


This is probably true. From what I've heard, clerkship apps were way up at NYU, both (1) because of the economy/deferrals/withdrawn offers, and (2) because the school is making an effort to promote clerking. It doesn't surprise me that clerkship apps are up across the board, but percentage-wise, they are probably up more at a school like NYU (where in the past, a relatively low percentage of students applied to clerk) than at a school like Harvard or Yale (where in the past, a relatively high percentage of students have always applied to clerk).




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