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The Insider wrote:

Wow, that is a pretty caustic statement, one lacks self control or has a stick up his/her ass? On the contrary I think. It is a totally personal decision, one that should not have any bearing on your ability to perform. I think its indisputable that alcohol use in the long-term can cause brain damage, but if one wants to take it further and refrain from touching it indefinitely, then how would that pose an unreasonable risk to trust? It seems to me that political correctness forgot to include T-Totalers in its objective to avoid forms of expression or action that can exclude, marginalize, or insult certain groups of people.



I don't have anything against anyone who drinks; in fact, 90% of my friends do. It's just a personal decision and like he said, there is nothing wrong with it if you refrain from doing so. And I may be playing Devil's Advocate, so to assume that I don't drink is manifestly false as I might be bringing up this issue for the sake of argument. What I do is not pertinent here. What I do find perplexing is how non-drinkers pose an unreasonable risk to trust as the person's former boss stated. That is just asinine and anecdotal; is there any evidence or research to support this statement? Plus, if one is religious (i.e. Mormon or Muslim), wouldn't hiring firms completely take that into consideration and refrain from judgment?

people like that get hired as either part of some diversity initiative or because they are seen as someone with the potential to work well with/attract an existing client base or a target client base. The whole PC cultural movement you alluded to above is essentially a public relations attempt to include as many people in their customer base not employee base (unless doing the latter helps attract the former), and as some non-client facing junior associate, you're just not that important or special, or the unique little snowflake that you think you are. Don't take it personal.

Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

Anonymous User wrote:Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

ETIQUETTE ETIQUETTE ETIQUETTE.

no one cares [that much] if u'r a beginner (though i would recommend getting some lessons) - but if u shoot out of turn, take fucking mulligans, step on a partner's line - bad news bears.

EDIT: honestly, if u've never hit a golf club before, i wouldnt choose a golf outing as the 1st place to do so. take several lessons and hit the driving range before heading out...it will save u massive embarrassment.

JG Hall wrote:

The Insider wrote:Wow, that is a pretty caustic statement, one lacks self control or has a stick up his/her ass? On the contrary I think. It is a totally personal decision, one that should not have any bearing on your ability to perform. I think its indisputable that alcohol use in the long-term can cause brain damage, but if one wants to take it further and refrain from touching it indefinitely, then how would that pose an unreasonable risk to trust? It seems to me that political correctness forgot to include T-Totalers in its objective to avoid forms of expression or action that can exclude, marginalize, or insult certain groups of people.

^ why people don't like people who don't drink

+1

Some people have stupid beliefs and base character assessments on those beliefs. Whether or not you agree with them is not the point. You can't tell someone how they should react to your nondrinking anymore than someone can tell you to drink. Some people assess your likeability based on quick observations, the fact that a person wears bowties instead of neckties, doesn't have a firm handshake, or won't look a person in the eye when they meet them, are all things people consider. Following your line of reasoning, those are forms of expression or action which cause certain groups to be marginalized or excluded. Like choosing what to wear, you are making a personal decision not to drink. That personal decision will be interpreted by people.

That is true, but don't these people have the conscious ability to change their ways in terms of dress, handshakes, eye contact, and the like? Not so much a suspect class. For T-Totalers, they might be duty-bound to adhere to their religion (i.e. Mormonism) which could very well prevent them from partaking in drinking, so I find what you said interesting, but less persuasive in that those above traits that people can possess are not so much inseparable as one's religion or personal obligations. Handshakes, eye contact, etc., are a non-immutable nature, easily capable of being changed, whereas one who is duty-bound to adhere to a religion lets say has a much stronger case. And religion falls under suspect class by the Supreme Court, whereas those above traits you mentioned are changeable instantly by the person's own volition.

Anonymous User wrote:Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

Bring lots of balls. If you lose one, leave it and pick up another. This especially works in scrambles, where you don't have to play your own ball. There's nothing more noticeable than having 3 guys wait on you as you try to find your ball.

Also, for scrambles- learn to putt. People will remember that you sunk that clutch putt and that may help them forget about your spraying balls all over the place. Putting is easier to learn because everyone's played putt-putt. The iron and wood golf swing is more complex, a lot of muscle memory, and not as natural as a putt.

Once you get that first fat SA check, go to your local driving range and drop a couple hundred bucks to hire a trainer. Work with him as much as you can afford to. Having a little bit of professional training should help you catch up pretty quick.

The Insider wrote:I think its indisputable that alcohol use in the long-term can cause brain damage, but if one wants to take it further and refrain from touching it indefinitely, then how would that pose an unreasonable risk to trust?

This is wrong. Long term chronic alcohol abuse can lead to liver and brain damage. But, long term social drinking does not.

The Insider wrote:

Some people have stupid beliefs and base character assessments on those beliefs. Whether or not you agree with them is not the point. You can't tell someone how they should react to your nondrinking anymore than someone can tell you to drink. Some people assess your likeability based on quick observations, the fact that a person wears bowties instead of neckties, doesn't have a firm handshake, or won't look a person in the eye when they meet them, are all things people consider. Following your line of reasoning, those are forms of expression or action which cause certain groups to be marginalized or excluded. Like choosing what to wear, you are making a personal decision not to drink. That personal decision will be interpreted by people.

That is true, but don't these people have the conscious ability to change their ways in terms of dress, handshakes, eye contact, and the like? Not so much a suspect class. For T-Totalers, they might be duty-bound to adhere to their religion (i.e. Mormonism) which could very well prevent them from partaking in drinking, so I find what you said interesting, but less persuasive in that those above traits that people can possess are not so much inseparable as one's religion or personal obligations. Handshakes, eye contact, etc., are a non-immutable nature, easily capable of being changed, whereas one who is duty-bound to adhere to a religion lets say has a much stronger case. And religion falls under suspect class by the Supreme Court, whereas those above traits you mentioned are changeable instantly by the person's own volition.

Dude, STFU. You asked a question. It was answered (and pretty well, I might add). No one cares about the injustice done to you by the beer drinking majority.

This is one of the stupidest "debates" I've ever seen on TLS. No one is even arguing with you. You're just interrupting an otherwise good thread.

Actually, it's not my intention to argue, but shed light on this issue. If I came off acrimonious then obviously my apologies but it was just an open dialogue on whether non-drinkers enjoy the same rights as drinkers. I never even once stated "you're wrong, yeah right, says who" so stop assuming because I was attempting to potentially illuminate yet larger questions.

romothesavior wrote:

The Insider wrote:

Some people have stupid beliefs and base character assessments on those beliefs. Whether or not you agree with them is not the point. You can't tell someone how they should react to your nondrinking anymore than someone can tell you to drink. Some people assess your likeability based on quick observations, the fact that a person wears bowties instead of neckties, doesn't have a firm handshake, or won't look a person in the eye when they meet them, are all things people consider. Following your line of reasoning, those are forms of expression or action which cause certain groups to be marginalized or excluded. Like choosing what to wear, you are making a personal decision not to drink. That personal decision will be interpreted by people.

That is true, but don't these people have the conscious ability to change their ways in terms of dress, handshakes, eye contact, and the like? Not so much a suspect class. For T-Totalers, they might be duty-bound to adhere to their religion (i.e. Mormonism) which could very well prevent them from partaking in drinking, so I find what you said interesting, but less persuasive in that those above traits that people can possess are not so much inseparable as one's religion or personal obligations. Handshakes, eye contact, etc., are a non-immutable nature, easily capable of being changed, whereas one who is duty-bound to adhere to a religion lets say has a much stronger case. And religion falls under suspect class by the Supreme Court, whereas those above traits you mentioned are changeable instantly by the person's own volition.

Dude, STFU. You asked a question. It was answered (and pretty well, I might add). No one cares about the injustice done to you by the beer drinking majority.

This is one of the stupidest "debates" I've ever seen on TLS. No one is even arguing with you. You're just interrupting an otherwise good thread.

dont u just want to hit him with something? i dont know how some people can inspire so much hate with just the way they talk/write.

The Insider wrote:Actually, it's not my intention to argue, but shed light on this issue. If I came off acrimonious then obviously my apologies but it was just an open dialogue on whether non-drinkers enjoy the same rights as drinkers. I never even once stated "you're wrong, yeah right, says who" so stop assuming because I was attempting to potentially illuminate yet larger questions.

Here is your answer. Go work at a Mormon firm. They do exist and the culture is definitely different. No big law firm operates with the same moral convictions you seem to possess.

I don't like getting drunk at work functions because I am afraid to make an ass out of myself (I love to drink). My strategy is to order a soda and water and hold it throughout the night. Or I order a beer in a dark bottle and hold that throughout the night. It isn't high school, no one is pressuring you to drink but you do stand out if you don't have a drink.

Other advice? <-- clueless 1L SA headed to a firm on Monday.

The Insider wrote:Actually, it's not my intention to argue, but shed light on this issue. If I came off acrimonious then obviously my apologies but it was just an open dialogue on whether non-drinkers enjoy the same rights as drinkers. I never even once stated "you're wrong, yeah right, says who" so stop assuming because I was attempting to potentially illuminate yet larger questions.

But no one cares.

I'll try to get this thread back on track (btw, nobody gives a shit if you drink or not as long as you don't act holier than thou about it - would you want some triathlete in your face every time you go to McDonalds? It's the same kind of thing).

I was an SA both 1L and 2L and had a blast both years. Here are my thoughts focusing on corporate SAs:

1) Do everything on time, don't even consider asking for an extension. Don't wait until the last minute and don't freak out about taking too much time, but do make sure that every single assignment you get is handed in on time or early.

2) Ask a ton of questions and make sure you understand exactly what you're being asked to do. If you're told to proofread a bond indenture, DO NOT feel self-conscious asking "what is an indenture?" You will look infinitely more retarded if you don't ask questions early on and it comes to light later that you had absolutely no idea what you were looking at. Nobody expects you to know anything and if you don't ask questions they'll assume either you're a superstar (and your work will correspondingly be expected to be superstar level) or you're just not that interested in the work - a terrible signal.

3) Proofread everything, even little emails, two or three times. If you are sending a long email in response to a research question print it out and proofread it on a hard copy before you send it off. Nobody is going to give you ridiculously tough assignments so little shit like grammar/spelling errors will make you stand out in a very bad way, also, you're going to spend a ton of time proofreading contracts/prospectuses/etc. and if you can't be trusted to proofread your own emails then nobody will trust you to proofread a long and extremely detailed document.

4) Be extremely responsive - endeavor to respond to emails and calls as close to immediately as you can. Also, get back in touch with people the same way they got in touch with you - if someone called you then call them back or visit their office (better yet, call them and ask if you can drop in), if someone sent a one-liner email then email back. Common courtesy. Also don't waste a partner's time with tons of little shit. Contact the junior person, or the person giving you the assignment, on the deal team if you have questions unless the partner specifically says something like, "how's this project going" or "do you have any questions about this?"

5) Keep your team members informed. Believe it or not, they might forget exactly what they asked you to do so if they need to make adjustments it will help them if they know where you're at in the process. Obviously don't email them every fifteen minutes, just don't make them contact you to see how things are going.

Why did this thread become about drinking beer? If you don't drink beer then don't drink beer! Don't like wearing a watch? Don't wear a watch! Be who you are and you will be x1000 better off in the long run.

Real advice from 3L's, actual lawyers, or paralegals would be much appreicated.

HBK wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

Bring lots of balls. If you lose one, leave it and pick up another. This especially works in scrambles, where you don't have to play your own ball. There's nothing more noticeable than having 3 guys wait on you as you try to find your ball.

Also, for scrambles- learn to putt. People will remember that you sunk that clutch putt and that may help them forget about your spraying balls all over the place. Putting is easier to learn because everyone's played putt-putt. The iron and wood golf swing is more complex, a lot of muscle memory, and not as natural as a putt.

Once you get that first fat SA check, go to your local driving range and drop a couple hundred bucks to hire a trainer. Work with him as much as you can afford to. Having a little bit of professional training should help you catch up pretty quick.

This is very credited, especially bringing lots of balls (at least 20, if you've never played before, because not only will you lose them in the water, you're going to lose a ton in the rough area), and getting a couple of lessens beforehand, at least so you have an idea how to swing a club. Also, pick up a book like the Dummies Guide to Golf, or something like that, so you understand the basics of the game and the general etiquette. The main thing for a firm golf outing is to show associates/partners that you're enjoyable to be around for 4+ hours straight. Therefore, while it won't matter if you can't hit a drive, it will matter if you are messing up their games, and the easiest way to piss someone off on a golf course is to break a simple rule that you should have learned before showing up for the day.

Sup Kid wrote:

HBK wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

Bring lots of balls. If you lose one, leave it and pick up another. This especially works in scrambles, where you don't have to play your own ball. There's nothing more noticeable than having 3 guys wait on you as you try to find your ball.

Also, for scrambles- learn to putt. People will remember that you sunk that clutch putt and that may help them forget about your spraying balls all over the place. Putting is easier to learn because everyone's played putt-putt. The iron and wood golf swing is more complex, a lot of muscle memory, and not as natural as a putt.

Once you get that first fat SA check, go to your local driving range and drop a couple hundred bucks to hire a trainer. Work with him as much as you can afford to. Having a little bit of professional training should help you catch up pretty quick.

This is very credited, especially bringing lots of balls (at least 20, if you've never played before, because not only will you lose them in the water, you're going to lose a ton in the rough area), and getting a couple of lessens beforehand, at least so you have an idea how to swing a club. Also, pick up a book like the Dummies Guide to Golf, or something like that, so you understand the basics of the game and the general etiquette. The main thing for a firm golf outing is to show associates/partners that you're enjoyable to be around for 4+ hours straight. Therefore, while it won't matter if you can't hit a drive, it will matter if you are messing up their games, and the easiest way to piss someone off on a golf course is to break a simple rule that you should have learned before showing up for the day.

Speaking of golf etiquette, I think the biggest thing that hasn't been mentioned is dress appropriately. Don't wear an Abercrombie polo tucked into cargo shorts and mid-calf socks.

Dressing poorly to a golf outing would be like dressing poorly to an OCI.

The Insider wrote:

HBK wrote:

The Insider wrote:Is it true that if you don't drink or are T-Total they will likely discriminate against you or consider letting you go?

A boss at my old job (nonlegal) always used to say "Can't trust a person who doesn't drink."

I think the perception is that you either lack self control or have a stick up your ass and don't want to have fun with everyone else.

I don't know about law, but that's been my experience in the corporate world.

Wow, that is a pretty caustic statement, one lacks self control or has a stick up his/her ass? On the contrary I think. It is a totally personal decision, one that should not have any bearing on your ability to perform. I think its indisputable that alcohol use in the long-term can cause brain damage, but if one wants to take it further and refrain from touching it indefinitely, then how would that pose an unreasonable risk to trust? It seems to me that political correctness forgot to include T-Totalers in its objective to avoid forms of expression or action that can exclude, marginalize, or insult certain groups of people.

Yep, stick up the ass.

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:

NotMyRealName09 wrote:1. Don't be weird.
2. Drink when lawyers are drinking, but never get belligerent. Don't not drink - see No. 1.
3. Stay late - be seen staying late, even if you don't have to.
4. Communicate project status with the assigning attorney on a regular basis - NEVER be in the situation where someone is asking where an assignment is.
5. Be eager, volunteer for everything, and be pro-active about getting exposure to as much real legal work as you can.

It sounds so much like trying to get into a frat.

It IS. You have to understand. Its not a company. Its a partnership. All the partners are pooling their money to make more money. You're not being hired into a company. You're being hired into a club. To make partner, the other partners have to vote you in, just like a club.

If they can't look at you and see dollar signs, forget about it. As a summer the firm is losing tens of thousands of dollars on you. So make sure when they look at you they can envision you making money for them in 4 years.

Anonymous User wrote:Let's get this thread back on track, please.

<--- Scared-as-shit 2L starting a SA position Monday who really appreciates the advice ITT and would like people to keep it coming.

Relevant inquiry: if you're male and have never golfed, suggestions on how to not look like an idiot at a firm golf event?

GOLF LESSON. Spend $100 for a basic golf lesson. Take more than one if you can.

"I'll try to get this thread back on track (btw, nobody gives a shit if you drink or not as long as you don't act holier than thou about it - would you want some triathlete in your face every time you go to McDonalds? It's the same kind of thing)."

This is generally true, but here's the reality. When everyone is at a social event, say, at a suite at a baseball game, and everyone has a beer in their hand, people not drinking stick out like a sore thumb. Then people notice it, not in a good way. "Does John/Jane not drink," they'll whisper. That may be all that is said, but it makes you weird. When the CEO takes all the summers out for a drink, you damn well better order some alcohol.

It makes you weird because whether you realize it or not people will not be relaxed around you in a social setting. When people drink they want to relax and not feel judged. They want to feel like they can slur their words and say something stupid and everyone will laugh because they understand. Someone not drinking makes people feel judged, and they will not like you or want to be around you.

And guess what else? Guess who won't get asked to join the group of associates for drinks after work? You will not be included in informal social events once people realize you don't like drinking. Those events are key to building friendships. Associate friends become partners someday. Then those partners decide whether to let you stick around, maybe even become partner too.

People give work to people they like. You need work to have a job.

Honestly, if you don't drink, fake it. This isn't P.C. advice, sure, but its just how it is. Law firm life is all politics - you'd better get real good at glad-handing.

At least it is where I work.

However, a lot depends on firm culture. If NO ONE in the firm drinks, well, then don't be the drunkass.

maxpayne wrote:

NotMyRealName09 wrote:1. Don't be weird.
2. Drink when lawyers are drinking, but never get belligerent. Don't not drink - see No. 1.
3. Stay late - be seen staying late, even if you don't have to.
4. Communicate project status with the assigning attorney on a regular basis - NEVER be in the situation where someone is asking where an assignment is.
5. Be eager, volunteer for everything, and be pro-active about getting exposure to as much real legal work as you can.

How do you balance the arriving early and leaving late with the perceived brown noser effect?

Be a little mysterious. A brown noser flaunts it, rubs it in. You need to be a ninja, working hard in the shadows so that one day in passing partner A tells partner B about that one summer who was working late. What a hard worker that kid is. He's going places. Reminds me of me when I was a summer. Not like that douchebag who tells everyone how early they arrive every morning.

Renzo wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I
5. You summers are taking work that would normally go to us. Don't rub it in. Or else we'll find a way to get you on a 50 state survey assignment.

This is one of my biggest concerns for the coming summer, and I'd appreciate any real associates input.

I like to work; I'm one of those weird people that would rather have more work than getting an afternoon off. If it were up to me, I'd probably work like a real associate over the summer. BUT, I also realize that I'm stealing hours from someone who probably needs them. Any tips for getting plenty (even an overabundance) of work, without making enemies of the junior associates or looking like a showoff/suckup?

All I have to say to this is be careful what you wish for. While you should never say no to an assignment, there is a fine line between having enough work and having too much to finish properly. Its great to have a huge pile of work. Its terrible to turn in shoddy work because you bit off more than you can chew. Its always the overconfident who end up looking like jackasses. Enjoy the summer. You'll be a real lawyer soon enough.

Notmyrealname, thnx for fielding questions!

NotMyRealName09 wrote:People give work to people they like. You need work to have a job.

Honestly, if you don't drink, fake it. This isn't P.C. advice, sure, but its just how it is. Law firm life is all politics - you'd better get real good at glad-handing.

At least it is where I work.

However, a lot depends on firm culture. If NO ONE in the firm drinks, well, then don't be the drunkass.

Oh c'mon, I'm guessing less than 1% of biglaw partners wouldn't give you work just because you do or do not drink. I think other things are much more important like your sense of humor, whether you're a loud, annoying jackass, whether you're a quiet aspie, whether you wear shitty clothes, whether you don't shave, whether your teeth are yellow, etc. etc.