Michigan State Law Class of 2012

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2012)
scelestus
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby scelestus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:06 pm

Smart-Guy,

While trying not to sound too negative, you must remember that there can be a major difference between the median of a set and the mean. Schools don't publish mean salaries, and there is a reason for that. Remember that if one student makes 140k to start, and the rest are unemployed, the median is still 70k. Also, be careful about those "top 20" and "ranked 7th" numbers for IP law. There are only 24 schools on the 2009 rankings list.

That being said, I am glad I went to law school and I'm glad I went to MSU. I have my down days about the job market, but I learned a lot and it certainly taught me a lot about myself. Despite the uncomfortable plastic chairs [gasp!], the faculty was very good and the educational experience was great.

It seems to me that you are really at a crossroads about law school in general. If I could offer you one single piece of advice--and take it with a grain of salt because I am an anonymous user on an Internet forum--it would be this: forget all of the salary and employment data. Forget everything your family tells you about how nice it would be to have a lawyer in the family. Forget the thought of driving a BMW into a personal parking space and wearing an expensive suit. Imagine if you *had* to do what a lawyer does for $8 an hour. Would you be happy doing it? If the answer is yes, then by all means, law school is the thing to do. Go wherever you feel comfortable and wherever you feel will give you the best learning experience. Law school has little to do with the bar exam. You have a good MBA under your belt and an UG degree in a solid field from a leading university in that area. What you do now, you do for you.



EDITED to add: I graduated within the last year, and the scholarships available to members of my class were contingent upon retaining or attaining particular GPAs or rankings. To keep a full-tuition scholarship, one had to maintain a 3.0 cumulative. For a King scholarship, it was 3.5 cumulative. A 3.5 is between top 25% and top 20% by my estimation. The scholarship committee meets in July every year, and that gives you an opportunity if you are so inclined to get an extra half-semester's worth of classes in during the summer (because the term ends in the first week of July) before the review. The committee probably won't see the summer grades, but if necessary you would have the extra upper-level (read: "easier") credits to add to your calculation later. That should at least give you some idea of your target GPAs to get or increase your scholarship monies. Congratulations on your half-tuition offer, by the way!

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:14 am

scelestus wrote:Smart-Guy,

While trying not to sound too negative, you must remember that there can be a major difference between the median of a set and the mean. Schools don't publish mean salaries, and there is a reason for that. Remember that if one student makes 140k to start, and the rest are unemployed, the median is still 70k.


This makes no sense. Median just takes all the numbers lays them out and middle number is the median. In your scenario the median would be 0. The mean would actually be the higher number because it would be 140K/350 students = mean of $400 per student salary.

BTW- what do you do for work, how much do you make, what was your class rank at graduation, and how much debt do you have? You previous post makes it sound like you are homeless and rotting away in a sewer somewhere...

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:13 pm

Went to Ann Arbor last night. I didnt tour the Michigan campus because I have no shot at it, but I'd much rather live in AA than E Lansing fwiw.

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:38 pm

Rocketman11 wrote:Went to Ann Arbor last night. I didnt tour the Michigan campus because I have no shot at it, but I'd much rather live in AA than E Lansing fwiw.


Ann Arbor is an awesome town, and the Michigan campus is baller. I'd throw in an application if I were you -- you gotta have some chance there if you are getting a full ride or close to it at MSU and you implied that on your previous post. Worst case your out the cost of an application. I might give up my full ride to go there next year just because its that awesome of a school.

scelestus
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby scelestus » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:15 pm

Go State,

You are correct about the calculation of a median value. However, it appears we are both incorrect about how the school would present the data. Law schools most often give median data for employed students. So, if as in the above scenario only one student should be employed (at 140k), the school would most likely publish a figure that says "employed graduates earn a median salary of 140k." Certainly true, but it makes the point clear: you'd better learn to read like a lawyer before you go to law school if you expect to rely on a school's employment statistics.

I am certainly not rotting in a sewer, and I'm not homeless (thank God!). Times are tough for the law graduate, though. I don't want to ruin my anonymity, but here is some info: I have not yet received a final ranking, but my last interim ranking was top 16%. I graduated Magna Cum Laude, with a 3.6 GPA. I was a King scholar. I had a full ride for undergrad, too. I graduated early, so I was not eligible for law review - it was a firm requirement that you sign on for four semesters (not including summers). I won't disclose my debt; I will say that it strongly reflects the living expenses for my 2 1/2 years in the Lansing area, which are pretty accurately estimated by the school's budget. There aren't (m)any jobs out there. I know a lot of last year's grads still looking. I do some legal work on the side, but primarily I work in a department store for what you would consider a typical salary in a retail environment. I am licensed to practice in a large state on the east coast.

For what it's worth, I appreciate that you tell me I came across that way. I don't want to be negative. However, I have to be realistic. Students--especially those recently admitted to law school--are under some sort of spell. There is something magic about how it feels to be an aspiring law student. That is fine, but I feel that I would be doing a great disservice to my fellow Spartans to withhold the fact that the road ahead leads into a legal market like none before.

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:37 pm

scelestus wrote:I am certainly not rotting in a sewer, and I'm not homeless (thank God!). Times are tough for the law graduate, though. I don't want to ruin my anonymity, but here is some info: I have not yet received a final ranking, but my last interim ranking was top 16%. I graduated Magna Cum Laude, with a 3.6 GPA. ... primarily I work in a department store for what you would consider a typical salary in a retail environment.


Are you kidding? Top 16% and you now work in retail (cashier at kmart?) (i.e. making terrible money doing something that isn't even remotely law related). That's scary. Thanks for sharing that at least, guess it gives a good outlook at what it's like for MSU law grads.

scelestus
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby scelestus » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:54 pm

Go State,

I am really happy to have a job at all. Seriously, one of the guys I was hired with waited four months to get his interview. It's not just law that's messed up--it's everywhere. The legal market is, IMHO, worse off than the regular employment market; law firms just work hard to hide it because of prestige requirements. Now, I don't want to give the impression that there will never be anything out there for lawyers. Things will come around.

Plainly put, the legal field is in a big flux. I don't know what legal work will be worth in the future. It could be $8 an hour, it could be $800 an hour. Either way, most of us start out at the bottom. Just because we have an extra three years of education doesn't mean we get to bypass being the snot-nosed brat at work. We are going to have to do crappy assignments, anxiously sit by while our superiors do their work (even if we know they are doing something wrong), and we may even have difficulty finding entry-level work at all. Heck, we might have to work in retail. But that's just for now. It's not rosy being a medical resident, either, or an entry-level engineer.

I make the two points above to say that you should stay positive about law school, but that you probably shouldn't do it for the money. I am learning that rewards come with hard work, diligence, and good luck. Even over-education isn't a ticket to ride.

I have to point out, too, that you focused on my "retail establishment" job whilst seemingly ignoring the legal work I do on the side. I work for a solo a couple of days a week, and I like it very much. I do some secretarial work, but my employer is teaching me by example how to run a law practice. My understanding of the practice of law (rather than of the law itself) is growing by leaps and bounds. I don't think I could get a much better experience than that. On top of that, he's a great guy to work for.

Smart_Guy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Smart_Guy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:48 pm

Wow scelestus!!!

Please say it aint so....you mean to tell me you, a graduate of the MSU College of Law, and with a 3.6 GPA (Magna Cum Laude) and 16% ranking, STILL CANNOT find any meaningful work as an attorney??

Might I ask, is this similarly the case with other "top" MSU Law College grads? Do you know of very many of your peers who are in similar straits??

If yours is the typical case rather than the atypical case of the aspiring MSU College of Law grad, then that frightens me a great deal!

One has to ask him or herself, why even attend law school in the first place? Why assume the burden of so much more debt (for those of us not fortunate enough to earn a full ride)?


If you don't mind my asking, to what degree do you think previous work experience/undergraduate credentials play in the post law school job search/interviewing process??

In my case, I am a non-traditional student....roughly 6 years professional experience as an engineer and banker in corporate America and holder of an electrical engineering degree + an MBA....I am wondering if potential employers place any value on students graduating with these kind of credentials as opposed to students who come straight thru law school from undergrad.


Do you care to share what your pre-law school academic and professional credentials are? Did you possess any work experience prior to entering law school at MSU?? What feedback if any did you receive from potential employers when you were conducting your interview search??

Please advise,

Thanks!

scelestus
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby scelestus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:59 pm

Smart Guy,

Good questions. On page 4 of this thread (in my second post), I kind of discussed my situation. In short, I wasn't intent on practicing right after graduation. I was headed for another degree. I took the bar because I had "three months off between degrees anyway," and I did it in the state where I was enrolled in grad school. During that time, I changed my mind about work and deferred admission to my degree program. I went job hunting, and expanded that search once I found out I was licensed to practice law.

In that sense, I am atypical. If I had been searching for 1) a state with jobs and 2) a job from an earlier point in time, I might be in a better situation as far as legal work goes. I can tell you that after my first year I was not top 16% - probably more like top 25% or top 20%. I didn't get any interview feedback because I didn't get so much as a callback during the Fall 2L OCI cycle.

I went straight to law school from college with a B.A. in philosophy, so I went in with few easily marketable skills and no strong work experience. I did do externships in law school, but non-profits and government agencies aren't really in a position to hire at this time. I think some employers would really like your credentials - if you were hunting for an in-house position (especially if you passed the patent bar, too), you might fare much better than the average J.D. If you were applying at a regular law firm, I have no idea if your experience would help you out.

If there's anything else I can answer, don't hesitate to ask. Good luck!

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:52 pm

I have reconsidered my previous thoughts about attending MSU law. My new advice is don't attend MSU law even with a full ride!! A pathetic 21 employers are coming to OCI this fall (all Michigan employers). Not sure what the point of wasting 3 years attending law school is if you are unlikely to find law related work when you graduate (as seems likely for my graduating class at MSU).

Smart_Guy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Smart_Guy » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:46 pm

If you don't mind my asking, what are your other choices of law schools? Have you decided to attend anywhere else? Also, how did you find out about the news that only 21 employers are coming to OCI this year? Do you have an inside source?

I am also very concerned about attending MSU....only I don't have a full-ride, I only have a half-tuition scholarship, so for me, I'm staring down the barrel of an extra $100K in debt (on top of the $100K that I already owe from undergrad & grad school).

What advice would you offer someone in my boat....I'm an engineer/MBA whose been laid off from the banking industry for about 6 months now, with no interviews or potential leads in the pipeline. Attending law school this fall was my way of switching careers & adding some additional credentials to my res...not to mention that it would give me a way of "waiting out" the recession until the job market rebounds.

On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I don't go to law school this fall...I'll be in unemployment limbo for God knows how much longer until I can get another gig...which could another 6-months, maybe a year.

What do you suggest? Any thoughts?

UWO-BADGPA
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby UWO-BADGPA » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:14 pm

*

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:12 pm

Smart_Guy wrote:If you don't mind my asking, what are your other choices of law schools? Have you decided to attend anywhere else? Also, how did you find out about the news that only 21 employers are coming to OCI this year? Do you have an inside source?

I am also very concerned about attending MSU....only I don't have a full-ride, I only have a half-tuition scholarship, so for me, I'm staring down the barrel of an extra $100K in debt (on top of the $100K that I already owe from undergrad & grad school).

What advice would you offer someone in my boat....I'm an engineer/MBA whose been laid off from the banking industry for about 6 months now, with no interviews or potential leads in the pipeline. Attending law school this fall was my way of switching careers & adding some additional credentials to my res...not to mention that it would give me a way of "waiting out" the recession until the job market rebounds.

On the other hand, I'm afraid that if I don't go to law school this fall...I'll be in unemployment limbo for God knows how much longer until I can get another gig...which could another 6-months, maybe a year.

What do you suggest? Any thoughts?


I think I talked to you in other pages on this thread, but I went to MSU my 1L year (that's how I know about the school and OCI). I am transferring to UMich this fall (that's how I know about Michigan's OCI figures).

I have no idea of where MSU is in terms of engineering but I was a business UG and MBA so I know that MSU's MBA program is excellent (and I imagine their engineering program is to). In your position I think it would be a terrible move to go MSU law. To be honest, in your position I wouldn't even bother to go to law school unless it were a top IP program because you have so much earning potential as it is with the degrees you have (i.e. MSU's MBA program is great and the engineering program is probably good as well).

Look at it this way, you sink $100K into debt to go into the law program and even if you do really, really well you are looking at a job limited to Michigan (not sure how many firms are in Michigan that practice IP but I would research this if I were you), and additionally you are looking at a job that will at best be around $108K starting. That's not really that great considering a good number of engineers with your degrees at good schools (like MSU's MBA and probably also engineering program) make well over $300K.

But the above $108K is the really positive outcome. The shitty (and more likely outcome) is that you finish somewhere in the top half of your class and you end up with zero possibility of a well paying job in the IP field. Sure you might get offers to work in DA's offices in Michigan for $40K a year and stuff like that, but obviously you don't want to do that.

I guess take my advice for what it's worth (i.e. I am an anonymous person on the internet), but keeping your head up high in terms of finding another job (and possibly retaking the lsat and going to a better law school if you are serious about being a lawyer). Even if you don't find another job for 6 months that is still better than spending 3 years of your life going through law school to find out you just wasted your time and money. Also consider the amount of money you could have made through promotions and raises by working those 3 years instead of going to law school. In the end, if you feel law school really is for you, then go, but go to a better school.

EDIT- didn't you say that you got into the University of Houston earlier? Why don't you want to go there (that seems to have a solid IP program-- #7 on USNews)?

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:45 pm


fordtheriver
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby fordtheriver » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Anyone know what section they are in? How do we find out?

Smart_Guy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Smart_Guy » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:25 pm

@ Go State:

Man, I think I am going to take your advice and forego attending MSU Law school this fall. As of now, I am still on the UH waitlist, and the likelihood there is that I probably won't get in as I've heard zero feedback from the UHLC AdComm and rumor has it that there isn't going to be much movement from their WL at all.

Also, MSU only admitted me with a 50% scholarship. That essentially left me on the hook to borrow another $33K/yr in additional loans on top of the roughly $100K that I already owe from UG & B-school. Given that MSU is basically a 3rd/4th tier law school, the lackluster Michigan economy, and the fact that only 20 employers are supposedly coming to OCI this year makes me re-think whether borrowing an additional $100K+ would even be a good investment to go there for law school.

Honestly my situation is this: I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from MSU, an MBA in Finance from MSU and about 6 years of total WE under my toolbelt. Before I was let go from my corporate banking job last March, I was pulling down $100K/yr in base salary alone not including bonuses....so the prospect of spending yet another 3 years (and $100K in loans) on MSU's campus just to have at best a 50/50 chance at getting a job where I'd start off at $100K seems to be a abit of a stretch.

I honestly will take your advice and try and get another job this fall and study for the LSAT and try to re-take either in October of December 2009. Truth is, I applied very late (around May 1st) and I only applied to 2 schools (UH & MSU), and I was using my LSAT score from Feb 2005 (153 LSAT). So you see, my efforts to get into law school this fall was like a quarterback throwing a "hail-mary" pass with 0 seconds on the clock trying to come from behind to win the game.

I've already reached out to the AdComm offices of Northwestern Law, UM Law, and UChicago Law (these are 3 top law schools) that I would really like to attend....but it will have to wait at least until next year.

Thanks for the helpful advice...I was actually on the fence about my decision, but I think hearing some honest feedback from someone whose been through this process really made all the difference in the world....I will be notifying the MSU Law Admissions office in the morning about my decision.

sincerely,

Smart_Guy

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby One Post Wonder » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:46 pm

While I understand many, if not all of the points that Go State has brought up about the shortcomings of MSU Law, I feel the need to introduce a few more facts that may have been ignored.

First, a little background about myself. I am a rising 2L at MSU Law, which means I am in the Class of 2011 like Go State, though I do not believe he was in my section before he transferred. I received a full ride, and chose to accept it, turning down an acceptance off the waitlist in mid-August with no scholarship from U of M Law. Currently, I am in the top 20% at MSU Law and I've accepted an offer to join Law Review based on my performance in the write-on competition.

And now, a few additional facts, which I feel the need to share because Smart_Guy withdrew from MSU Law based on what he read in this forum. While I am disappointed with the number of employers coming to MSU Law to interview 2Ls (21 total), every large law firm in the state of Michigan will be interviewing on-campus this Fall. @ the poster inquiring about IP Law, the large Chicago law firm Brinks, Hofer, Gilson, & Lione will be on-campus interviewing 2Ls for a summer IP position, paying $3,077 per week.

I feel bad that Smart_Guy withdrew based in part on MSU Law's Fall OCI when OCI is not the only way to secure high-paying employment. Several of my classmates at MSU Law became summer associates without participating in 1L OCI, which only attracted about two firms to campus in January and February. Direct send with targeted cover letters showing why you're interested in a particular firm is the best method of securing interviews and ultimate employment. Including in the cover letter any connections to the area or to the particular law firm is a huge advantage, though not a necessity.

At least one 1L from MSU Law accepted an offer to become a summer associate with a mid-size Grand Rapids law firm that came to campus in January, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Detroit firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Chicago firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Houston firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large San Diego firm, and another 1L accepted an externship/clerkship with a Michigan Supreme Court Justice. Opportunities are available for those with high grades or relevant work experience prior to enrolling in law school. For those in the lower half of the class, however, high-paying positions, which I define as $100k plus, are rare. $60k plus positions are not as rare, provided the student can demonstrate with concrete evidence or smooth talk a desire to work in a certain city for an extended period of time. As a side note, I know of only a few firms paying $60k to $90k that have summer associate programs, which explains why they're not interviewing 2Ls in the Fall for summer associate positions.

Fall OCI brings mid-size to large law firms and a small smattering of prestigious government agencies to campus. Small law firms typically don't come, but that doesn't mean you can't send them your resume. Michigan Law is a nationally recognized law school that brings firms to Fall OCI from every state in the nation, while Michigan State Law brings mostly Michigan firms to campus. The number of firms coming to campus at MSU Law may be small, but it only takes one employer to hire you, not seven hundred. Every single employer interviewing on-campus at Michigan Law can be applied to via direct send from MSU Law. In fact, a dean at MSU Law has the U of M list and will share it with students upon request. Career Services will also send a brochure about MSU Law to any law firms outside the state who may not have heard of the school, as the name only changed to MSU College of Law in 2004. I personally asked the new Dean about whether the law school would go public any time soon, but unfortunately, she said no because the state of Michigan has a very tight budget with little room for additional expenses, such as funding a "new" public law school.

As for the school ranking mumbo-jumbo, I don't know much about it. I assume a higher school ranking brings more employers to campus. Problem is, many of the additional employers brought to campus require new associates to bill 2100+ hours per year. A friend of mine who graduated from Virginia Law School secured a Big Law position that required him to bill 2100 hours per year, and after two years of working for the firm, he found that he wasn't happy. He lateraled to an in-house position requiring him to work fewer hours at a corporation, taking a hefty pay cut in the process, and he is living happily ever after with his wife and kids.

As for my 1L summer, I chose to work for a U.S. Attorney. I intend to work at a law firm next summer, preferably in D.C., and will post whether I secure a summer associate position. @ Go State, I would love to hear about your experiences with Fall OCI at Michigan Law, and wish we could have met during 1L year. Our conversations speculating on the job market for the Class of 2011 would have been interesting. Will the Class of 2011 see the worst legal market of all time, or will the Class of 2012 take that honor? The suspense is killing me!

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby coolkatz321 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:46 pm

Smart_Guy wrote:@ Go State:


I've already reached out to the AdComm offices of Northwestern Law, UM Law, and UChicago Law (these are 3 top law schools) that I would really like to attend....but it will have to wait at least until next year.



No, REALLY?! I'm sorry, but I just found this absolutely hilarious. You really felt the need to put that in parentheses?

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:19 pm

One Post Wonder wrote:While I understand many, if not all of the points that Go State has brought up about the shortcomings of MSU Law, I feel the need to introduce a few more facts that may have been ignored.

First, a little background about myself. I am a rising 2L at MSU Law, which means I am in the Class of 2011 like Go State, though I do not believe he was in my section before he transferred. I received a full ride, and chose to accept it, turning down an acceptance off the waitlist in mid-August with no scholarship from U of M Law. Currently, I am in the top 20% at MSU Law and I've accepted an offer to join Law Review based on my performance in the write-on competition.

And now, a few additional facts, which I feel the need to share because Smart_Guy withdrew from MSU Law based on what he read in this forum. While I am disappointed with the number of employers coming to MSU Law to interview 2Ls (21 total), every large law firm in the state of Michigan will be interviewing on-campus this Fall. @ the poster inquiring about IP Law, the large Chicago law firm Brinks, Hofer, Gilson, & Lione will be on-campus interviewing 2Ls for a summer IP position, paying $3,077 per week.

I feel bad that Smart_Guy withdrew based in part on MSU Law's Fall OCI when OCI is not the only way to secure high-paying employment. Several of my classmates at MSU Law became summer associates without participating in 1L OCI, which only attracted about two firms to campus in January and February. Direct send with targeted cover letters showing why you're interested in a particular firm is the best method of securing interviews and ultimate employment. Including in the cover letter any connections to the area or to the particular law firm is a huge advantage, though not a necessity.

At least one 1L from MSU Law accepted an offer to become a summer associate with a mid-size Grand Rapids law firm that came to campus in January, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Detroit firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Chicago firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large Houston firm, another 1L accepted an offer from a large San Diego firm, and another 1L accepted an externship/clerkship with a Michigan Supreme Court Justice. Opportunities are available for those with high grades or relevant work experience prior to enrolling in law school. For those in the lower half of the class, however, high-paying positions, which I define as $100k plus, are rare. $60k plus positions are not as rare, provided the student can demonstrate with concrete evidence or smooth talk a desire to work in a certain city for an extended period of time. As a side note, I know of only a few firms paying $60k to $90k that have summer associate programs, which explains why they're not interviewing 2Ls in the Fall for summer associate positions.

Fall OCI brings mid-size to large law firms and a small smattering of prestigious government agencies to campus. Small law firms typically don't come, but that doesn't mean you can't send them your resume. Michigan Law is a nationally recognized law school that brings firms to Fall OCI from every state in the nation, while Michigan State Law brings mostly Michigan firms to campus. The number of firms coming to campus at MSU Law may be small, but it only takes one employer to hire you, not seven hundred. Every single employer interviewing on-campus at Michigan Law can be applied to via direct send from MSU Law. In fact, a dean at MSU Law has the U of M list and will share it with students upon request. Career Services will also send a brochure about MSU Law to any law firms outside the state who may not have heard of the school, as the name only changed to MSU College of Law in 2004. I personally asked the new Dean about whether the law school would go public any time soon, but unfortunately, she said no because the state of Michigan has a very tight budget with little room for additional expenses, such as funding a "new" public law school.

As for the school ranking mumbo-jumbo, I don't know much about it. I assume a higher school ranking brings more employers to campus. Problem is, many of the additional employers brought to campus require new associates to bill 2100+ hours per year. A friend of mine who graduated from Virginia Law School secured a Big Law position that required him to bill 2100 hours per year, and after two years of working for the firm, he found that he wasn't happy. He lateraled to an in-house position requiring him to work fewer hours at a corporation, taking a hefty pay cut in the process, and he is living happily ever after with his wife and kids.

As for my 1L summer, I chose to work for a U.S. Attorney. I intend to work at a law firm next summer, preferably in D.C., and will post whether I secure a summer associate position. @ Go State, I would love to hear about your experiences with Fall OCI at Michigan Law, and wish we could have met during 1L year. Our conversations speculating on the job market for the Class of 2011 would have been interesting. Will the Class of 2011 see the worst legal market of all time, or will the Class of 2012 take that honor? The suspense is killing me!


Thank you for adding to my post. I would like to add that I think Smart_Guy in the end made the right decision because his goals of making $100K+, working in an IP firm, are entirely to high for MSU law (especially considering there is only 1 firm coming to MSU law that pays high and does IP work, in addition to the fact that he was going to incur $100K in debt to attend for 3 years). In general it is a bad idea to go into law school with the thought that you will be at the very top of your class. The risk is a lot less present when you are entering in to a school like MSU law w/ a full ride like myself and One Post Wonder because even ending up with bad grades and only making $50K a year at graduation isn't going to ruin you financially. So what that means is if you are sure that you want to work in Michigan and have a full ride MSU might not be that bad of a decision. But also keep in mind most Michigan Law students that want to work in Michigan will be ahead of you in terms of employment and there are very few jobs in Michigan midsize firms available.

Also, One Post Wonder, you are incorrect when you say that every large firm in Michigan is coming to OCI. There are more than 21 large firms (actually all are midsize firms) in Michigan. Also, one of those "firms" out of the 21 is not a firm at all (U.S. DOJ Navy I think) so it is actually 20 firms coming to OCI at MSU.

I also want to add that while the median salary is $60K for MSU law the actual median salary is probably around $50K when you account for all the people at the bottom of the class that were angry and did not reply to the survey. Also, you can probably expect to make the median salary if you are inbetween bottom 40%-top 26% of you class (estimate).

As for direct send, it is definitely a possibility but I wouldn't count on it being to successful. Keep in mind most firms do OCI where they want to hire and will only look at resumes and cover letters after doing OCI (some firms will even tell you this when you direct send your resume and cover letter to them). So if you so end up at the top of your class (in a normal economy) I think there is a possibility that you will be able to secure a job in another market besides Michigan, but you will also get to be a lot less selective then you would be even if you were at the median at a t10 school (i.e. you will probably be accepting any offer you receive from any high paying firms, whereas at a school like Michigan being at the median would allow you some selectivity as to where you want to work (once again, this only applies to a normal economy and not this year's bloodbath)). [Source: I am basing this statement off the past 8 years GPA correlation chart that Michigan law has for all firms that have done OCI at Michigan law.]

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jne381
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby jne381 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:19 pm

Good News Everyone!

Bar passage rates for MSU this year are looking good:

MICHIGAN BAR EXAM

The Michigan Board of Law Examiners has reported the following `BEFORE` appeals results for July 2009 bar exam takers:

FIRST-TIME Bar Exam Takers Breakdown (Statewide: 88%)
Michigan State University: 95%
Cooley: 85%
U of D Mercy: 85%
U of M: 92%
Wayne: 89%
Out of State Law Schools: 84%
Ave Maria: 74%
Toledo: 89%

ALL Exam Takers Breakdown (Statewide: 83%)
Michigan State University: 91%
Cooley: 75%
U of D Mercy: 83%
U of M: 92%
Wayne: 84%
Out of State Law Schools: 80%
Ave Maria: 73%
Toledo: 89%

ILLINOIS
MSU's second largest jurisdiction. The number in parentheses represents the number of bar takers for the July 2009 bar exam administration. These results include alums from 2008 and earlier as they often defer taking the bar or take a second or third bar exam and are included as first-time takers for the Illinois bar exam.

First-time takers: 100% (31), state average: 92%
Overall: 97% (32), state average: 89%


95% for first time takers in MI, and 100% for first time takers in IL. I don't think these numbers are too shabby. Hopefully they give MSU a boost in the rankings next year.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:44 pm

Want to give curious parties an update on your thoughts? We know what Go State had to say about MSU. I think it would be helpful if you posted your thoughts.

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:27 am

Check out MSU's new and improved employment statistics:
# 92.3 percent of our 2008 graduates were employed, or enrolled in a graduate degree program, within nine months of graduation.
# 43 percent of our 2008 graduates were placed in states other than Michigan.
# Median starting salary for 2008 graduates in law firms of more than 50 is $100,000.


See --LinkRemoved--

I haven't posted up for a while, but I started strolling through MSU's website to see if they had any statistics of how last year's graduation class did since I know it did pretty badly with how many people were pissed off leaving school last year (including the slew of people that tried to "get back" at career services by not responding to the employment survey). Last year their figure was $60K for their median salary. It obviously dropped again, so to make themselves sound better since they raised tuition significantly (apparently now it costs $50K a year to attend if you pay sticker like a majority of the class does) they report median salary as $100K based on graduates that entered law firms of more than 50 attorneys, which is great how they omit the fact that probably around 5% of the class made it into firms of over 50 attorneys. Also great how they mention 43% of grads were placed in other states outside of Michigan, but lack to mention that they weren't placed in legal jobs, and actually weren't "placed" at all in the sense that career services couldn't help them out at all outside of the state of Michigan. Same applies with the 92.3% employment rate--i.e. a good percentage of that didn't land legal jobs at all. Sorry about the rant, but the updated employment placement information is pretty ridiculous and obviously intended to mislead people (but I guess MSU isn't the only school that does this, but it's not really great that they decided to follow the lead of other schools w/ number fudging).

EDIT- I recognize that they didn't post up information of class of 2009 (last year), which is what I was looking for originally, but very misleading nonetheless.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby BruceBarr » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:33 am

jne381 wrote:
crystalhawkeye wrote:If Flint and Metro Detroit just disappeared off of the face of the earth, no one would miss them and Michigan would be a great state.


This is the credited response.

I have two plans. One is take the Michigan National Guard and rebuild Detroit like Iraq. Or, the state buys up complete neighborhoods of Detroit, since the average house costs $7,500, renovate all the houses, and move artists musicians and gay people into them for free as long as they pledge to live there for ten years. If you do that to enough places, it is bound to turn the city around.



Is this guy fucking serious? Seeing as how I live in Detroit, I along with like 450,000 people want to bitch slap you in the mouth right now.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby BruceBarr » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:41 am

coolkatz321 wrote:
Smart_Guy wrote:@ Go State:


I've already reached out to the AdComm offices of Northwestern Law, UM Law, and UChicago Law (these are 3 top law schools) that I would really like to attend....but it will have to wait at least until next year.



No, REALLY?! I'm sorry, but I just found this absolutely hilarious. You really felt the need to put that in parentheses?



I'm glad you caught this too.

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Rocketman11
Posts: 612
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:19 pm

Go State wrote:Check out MSU's new and improved employment statistics:
# 92.3 percent of our 2008 graduates were employed, or enrolled in a graduate degree program, within nine months of graduation.
# 43 percent of our 2008 graduates were placed in states other than Michigan.
# Median starting salary for 2008 graduates in law firms of more than 50 is $100,000.


See --LinkRemoved--

I haven't posted up for a while, but I started strolling through MSU's website to see if they had any statistics of how last year's graduation class did since I know it did pretty badly with how many people were pissed off leaving school last year (including the slew of people that tried to "get back" at career services by not responding to the employment survey). Last year their figure was $60K for their median salary. It obviously dropped again, so to make themselves sound better since they raised tuition significantly (apparently now it costs $50K a year to attend if you pay sticker like a majority of the class does) they report median salary as $100K based on graduates that entered law firms of more than 50 attorneys, which is great how they omit the fact that probably around 5% of the class made it into firms of over 50 attorneys. Also great how they mention 43% of grads were placed in other states outside of Michigan, but lack to mention that they weren't placed in legal jobs, and actually weren't "placed" at all in the sense that career services couldn't help them out at all outside of the state of Michigan. Same applies with the 92.3% employment rate--i.e. a good percentage of that didn't land legal jobs at all. Sorry about the rant, but the updated employment placement information is pretty ridiculous and obviously intended to mislead people (but I guess MSU isn't the only school that does this, but it's not really great that they decided to follow the lead of other schools w/ number fudging).

EDIT- I recognize that they didn't post up information of class of 2009 (last year), which is what I was looking for originally, but very misleading nonetheless.


Yeah I dislike how they list their employment stats too. If you have to fudge them around like that to look good, then obviously you have something to hide.




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