Michigan State Law Class of 2012

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2012)
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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:16 am

OK, I just wanted to post and repudiate my previous statement. MSU cracks me up with how they basically just do whatever gets measured to bump in rankings. I got word of some top secret plan out there for how where going to move up next year in the rankings. I believe it is true seeing how they basically cut the entire PT night program, screwing anyone that truly went PT in 08-09' year (because now they can't take their remaining 1L classes next year at "night"). I still think it'll be hell of a move to get out of the 3rd tier next year (meaning class of 2012 might not benefit from it), but at least they will move in the right direction.

prophecybysnakes
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby prophecybysnakes » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:30 pm

Hey I think I asked awhile ago but does anyone know if MSU has a loan repayment program for public interest/government grads? I've tried searching their website but have kinda come up empty-handed...

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etkinall
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby etkinall » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:09 pm

prophecybysnakes wrote:Hey I think I asked awhile ago but does anyone know if MSU has a loan repayment program for public interest/government grads? I've tried searching their website but have kinda come up empty-handed...



I am almost positive they do! Not 100% but pretty close.

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etkinall
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby etkinall » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:11 pm

singularity wrote:What can you say about the Geoffrey Fieger Trial Practice Institute?

Is it worth while? Does any one outside of MSU care about it? How competitive is it to get in (looks like only 10% get to participate)? What are the students impression of it?




It is supposed to be amazing! My boyfriend is in it next year -- and could not be more excited! It's a great program because it is not based on grades like most programs, but based on ability. All students in have nothing but positive things to say!

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:51 am

etkinall wrote:
prophecybysnakes wrote:Hey I think I asked awhile ago but does anyone know if MSU has a loan repayment program for public interest/government grads? I've tried searching their website but have kinda come up empty-handed...



I am almost positive they do! Not 100% but pretty close.


They don't. University of Michigan has one of the best LRAPs out there though (if you can get in)-- they pay 100%, and after 10 years debt is gone.
Last edited by Go State on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:53 am

etkinall wrote:It's a great program because it is not based on grades like most programs, but based on ability.


Not sure what that even means, but it is graded on a curve just like all the other classes. (I'm not disagreeing with it being a good program. Although moot court would be better if you could get on the board for that if you want to go into litigation).
Last edited by Go State on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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etkinall
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby etkinall » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:52 pm

Go State wrote:
etkinall wrote:It's a great program because it is not based on grades like most programs, but based on ability.


Not sure what that even means, but it is graded on a curve just like all the other classes. (I'm not disagreeing with it being a good program. Although moot court would be better if you could get on the board for that if you want to go into litigation).



You obviously didn't understand what I meant -- which is interesting given that you are commenting on the school. What I meant, is that you don't get INTO the program based on your grades, but based on your ability. That does not mean anything about the class.

I would like to know who you are, so I could let everyone know who is bad mouthing their school. While I am not attending MSU for law school, I almost did, and I attended MSU for undergrad. Even though you may not realize it, they are definitely improving, and offering GREAT perks for incoming freshman. And don't get all high and mighty and let me know that I don't know what I'm talking about, because you would very much be mistaken. Michigan State is a great undergrad as well as a law school. They have a particularly impressive faculty, and their programs are beginning to rank best in the country. I encourage everyone to research and give the school a chance before listening to someone who is apparently unclear about the schools present.

In addition, if you are so UNHAPPY, then transfer. I know tons of people who have transferred in and out, so if you have such a problem with the school, then leave.

Okay, Thanks! :D

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:53 pm

etkinall wrote:I would like to know who you are, so I could let everyone know who is bad mouthing their school. While I am not attending MSU for law school, I almost did, and I attended MSU for undergrad. Even though you may not realize it, they are definitely improving, and offering GREAT perks for incoming freshman. And don't get all high and mighty and let me know that I don't know what I'm talking about, because you would very much be mistaken. Michigan State is a great undergrad as well as a law school. They have a particularly impressive faculty, and their programs are beginning to rank best in the country. I encourage everyone to research and give the school a chance before listening to someone who is apparently unclear about the schools present.


I never said anything about the undergrad program. I don't doubt that there are "GREAT perks for incoming freshman," being as my comments were only in regards to the law school. It's a big 10 school so obviously the undergrad programs are great. Even most of the grad programs are great (e.g. the med school ranks of Michigan). The sad thing though is that the average undergrad salary last year was around $60K, and the average law student graduate salary was around $60K. The difference being that law students went to school for 3 more years, and people that pay full tuition paid around a $150K to go to school here (unlike UG). $60K a year really doesn't cut it with that kind of debt.

As I previously stated, the school is making some large scale changes to accommodate US news rankings, and I honestly do think they will at some point hit the top 100. BUT, will it happen in time for incoming 1Ls to benefit from it (i.e. class of 2012)? Highly unlikley. 2L fall OCI is by far the most important because it is suppose to find you a summer associateship for the following summer, which leads to a job offer for when you graduate following the subsequent year. So the the class of 2012 would really only benefit if the school took a huge jump in rankings (from mid tier 3 this last year) for US News 2010 rankings. The 2010 rankings are here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69263 , and MSU did not make it into the top 100.

However, one could speculate that employers will look at the 2011 rankings before they come out and use those to decide where they go fall 2010 (when 2L OCI for the class of 2012 would be). But I really don't think the school will make that kind of a jump quite that quickly. So in short, the school does seem to be moving in the right direction, and it isn't bad for people that get a decent scholarship (I would say at least 50% with going tuition rates) and additionally want to practice in the state of Michigan. But if you don't have both of those, it probably isn't the right school to be going to.

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:22 pm

Go State wrote:BUT what I am saying is make sure that you are okay with living in a extremely poor community with a sky high crime rate (with a ton of murders and rapes/sexual assaults) after graduation-- and I am not just talking about E lansing/Lansing... Detroit and the surrounding cities aren't exactly friendly places to live. The roads here are also the worst i've driven on anywhere. I swear you need a fucking army hummer to drive around here, which really makes me mad because I can't take my Z out here in this really nice weather.


This is how I know you're full of shit. I've lived in Michigan 23 years and at the very best you have gross exaggerations. The cities surrounding Detroit are still some of the wealthiest in the nation (look up Oakland County, home to places like Rochester, Birmingham, West Bloomfield, Royal Oak...). You could not get safer than these places. I went to UG in Grand Rapids, again a great city that's very safe. Lansing itself is ehhh, but East Lansing has some very wealthy neighborhoods.

Unless you life in either Flint or Detroit city limits, Michigan is a pretty harmless state. As for roads, yeah they're always under construction but I'm used to it and again you're exaggerating.

No one should base his decision based on what this guy has said.

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:29 pm

etkinall wrote:
singularity wrote:What can you say about the Geoffrey Fieger Trial Practice Institute?

Is it worth while? Does any one outside of MSU care about it? How competitive is it to get in (looks like only 10% get to participate)? What are the students impression of it?




It is supposed to be amazing! My boyfriend is in it next year -- and could not be more excited! It's a great program because it is not based on grades like most programs, but based on ability. All students in have nothing but positive things to say!


Oh lord I hate Geoffrey Fieger. "If you don't vote for me, you're stupid"

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby jne381 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

Rocketman11 wrote:
Go State wrote:BUT what I am saying is make sure that you are okay with living in a extremely poor community with a sky high crime rate (with a ton of murders and rapes/sexual assaults) after graduation-- and I am not just talking about E lansing/Lansing... Detroit and the surrounding cities aren't exactly friendly places to live. The roads here are also the worst i've driven on anywhere. I swear you need a fucking army hummer to drive around here, which really makes me mad because I can't take my Z out here in this really nice weather.


This is how I know you're full of shit. I've lived in Michigan 23 years and at the very best you have gross exaggerations. The cities surrounding Detroit are still some of the wealthiest in the nation (look up Oakland County, home to places like Rochester, Birmingham, West Bloomfield, Royal Oak...). You could not get safer than these places. I went to UG in Grand Rapids, again a great city that's very safe. Lansing itself is ehhh, but East Lansing has some very wealthy neighborhoods.

Unless you life in either Flint or Detroit city limits, Michigan is a pretty harmless state. As for roads, yeah they're always under construction but I'm used to it and again you're exaggerating.

No one should base his decision based on what this guy has said.


+1

I just moved back to Grand Rapids from DC, and I was pleasantly surprised how good the roads were. DC and Maryland were beating the heck out of my car, which is surprising because used to think nicer weather meant less wear and tear on the road.

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby jne381 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:22 pm

Furthermore, I don't know if I trust Go State's intentions. As he only has 23 posts, it seems he only exists to bash MSU Law.

I can't believe that U of M would have a plant to derail possible future competition, but maybe Wayne State. :)

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:28 am

Rocketman11 wrote:
Go State wrote:BUT what I am saying is make sure that you are okay with living in a extremely poor community with a sky high crime rate (with a ton of murders and rapes/sexual assaults) after graduation-- and I am not just talking about E lansing/Lansing... Detroit and the surrounding cities aren't exactly friendly places to live. The roads here are also the worst i've driven on anywhere. I swear you need a fucking army hummer to drive around here, which really makes me mad because I can't take my Z out here in this really nice weather.


This is how I know you're full of shit. I've lived in Michigan 23 years and at the very best you have gross exaggerations. The cities surrounding Detroit are still some of the wealthiest in the nation (look up Oakland County, home to places like Rochester, Birmingham, West Bloomfield, Royal Oak...). You could not get safer than these places. I went to UG in Grand Rapids, again a great city that's very safe. Lansing itself is ehhh, but East Lansing has some very wealthy neighborhoods.


Well if you live in Michigan, like it, and want to stay in Michigan, I don't see anything wrong with the school because it will likely find you a job in Michigan. Everyone has a different opinion of what "nice" or "wealthy" is. What I can tell you is it definitely isn't Chicago "nice" or "wealthy." My only real point here was to come to Michigan and make sure you like it before you attend MSU, because that's about all the mobility you're going to get from the law school in general. If you already live in Michigan and want to stay I don't see how anything I said is relevant to you...

Here's MSU's crime stats:
--ImageRemoved--
614 felonies by the campus police department isn't my idea of "nice" place to live at graduation. But to each their own.

Rocketman11 wrote:As for roads, yeah they're always under construction but I'm used to it and again you're exaggerating.


Yeah, and what do you drive? A pickup truck. The roads are terrible. This isn't even an arguable thing. The roads are total shit out here.

Rocketman11 wrote:No one should base his decision based on what this guy has said.


OK, it's your $150K if you decide to pay full at MSU, not mine. [Although you could just go to MSU for UG and end up making the same amount as you will at graduation from the law school. Not to mention the money you'd save if your talking about paying full tuition.]

I still stand by what I've said (besides the rankings thing, which I changed earlier). MSU is a good school if you like Michigan, want to stay in Michigan when your done with school, AND are getting at least 50% scholarship. But if your someone who comes here from, some other state, with hopes to live in another state besides Michigan when done and pays a $150K to come here, so be it, but your a moran (and I know for a fact people do this).
Last edited by Go State on Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:33 am

jne381 wrote:Furthermore, I don't know if I trust Go State's intentions. As he only has 23 posts, it seems he only exists to bash MSU Law.

I can't believe that U of M would have a plant to derail possible future competition, but maybe Wayne State. :)


UM doesn't seem to take a lot of Michigan's jobs because presumably most people that go there don't want to stay in Michigan when they graduate (except some people from Michigan that don't want to leave). People that go to other top schools don't decide all of a sudden decide to move to Michigan either (unless they are from Michigan originally). Wayne State has a tendency to take a lot of the jobs around Detriot, while MSU attracts jobs are Grand Rapids. So in all reality if you know 100% that you want to stay in Michigan when you are done with school, MSU isn't too bad for that (assuming your not paying full price, because you'll never pay it off if you are).

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby realworldescapee » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:36 pm

.
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:40 pm

realworldescapee wrote:Go State, although your bottom line about attending MSU is acceptable, several of the quoted statements are not. The suburbs of Detroit, the Grand Rapids area, among other communities are among some of the most well-off community in the nation. If you live in East Grand Rapids, Bloomfield Hills, West Bloomfield, you are loaded. Yes there are other place besides those that are less off, but that's true of any state. Look at Illinois, outside of Chicago, how is the state. Clearly not as "nice" or "wealthy" as the rest of the state.

I don't even know where to begin with your crime stats. Yes, lots of crimes happen in Michigan, they happen in just about every other state and city as well. Your stats are useless without comparative statistics to other states, the national average, per capita ratio for misdemeanors and felonies, as well as a whole other slew of statistical evidence. The fact that crime exists and some crime exists in the thousands demonstrates nothing.


I really can't say much about the state as a whole, but the parts I've seen were crappy. But the parts I've seen are Lansing, Detroit, Jackson (don't even get me started with how ghetto that town is)... You are probably right and there are nicer areas in the state, but it sure doesn't make me want to stick around any longer. All I'm saying is just come out to Michigan for a month or so if you are from another state and want to come to MSU and if you decide you like it then great, but if not then don't go to MSU. But don't do what I did and just come to MSU under the general assumption that you don't really care where you will work when you graduate and will just live where you get a job because Michigan isn't my idea of "nice" or "wealthy" based on where I grew up, and it might not be yours either.

realworldescapee wrote:The tone and focus of your statements incite resentment. You say MSU is a nice school to go to with a half ride, but have only really bashed MSU, and all aspects of the community. Perhaps spending time qualifying your statements about what's good about MSU, (aside from being able to get a job in Michigan, lord hopes they'd be able to do that) would make your statements more appreciated and seem more objective.


I actually did did point out some of the positives in a prior post:
Go State wrote:I didn't say the school sucks. In fact, I love the school itself. The people here are great, the campus is awesome, and I'm a football nut so big 10 football is the shit. Also based on reading how much people study at other schools on this forum it seems that MSU is truly a ton less competitive than many other schools. There are basically 3 people here that study the 45+ hours a week that people on here claim to do and those are the international students (and that is understandable because they have a lot more to lose).


Aside from that there's really not much else to say. I mean what can I say, it's obvious that its college and college at a big 10 school. So the bars here are awesome (besides the lines), basically all the girls are hot (and the ratio is really good). Although I guess it is worthwhile mentioning that there's a lot less stuck up people here than in a lot of places. Look up cedar fest as well, which was pretty crazy. Also football games are intense (but they probably are at all big 10 schools). But as for the law school itself, well its law school and its not my idea of fun. But the nice thing is its not super cutthroat competitive like some schools like Cooley.

With that said, the cons to the school are also pretty big. One is that you can't get a job outside of Michigan, and Michigan's economy isn't exactly the greatest. The other is the cost of attendance in comparison to what you are likely to make when you graduate. The average salary last year was $60K of the graduating class. So when you figure in the bottom % of the class that was just pissed off and didn't reply, and it was more realistically, I don't know, maybe ~$50K (give or take a few thousand). Then you try to adjust for skewness for the small number of people at the top of the class that made the big salaries from NLJ250 firms, it's probably around $45K for the middle of the class. So if you make middle of the class, and you pay sticker and leave with just over $150K in debt, you'll basically be paying that off until you die. Just think about it, 8.5% interest was the going rate for everything past the $20K for stafford loans last year. This isn't exact (i don't have the time or patience to calculate it out exactly), but just to give an idea 8.5% * 150K = ~$13K just in interest that accumulates each year. So if you clear $45K, your after tax income is around ~$30K (about a 1/3 goes to tax, SS, etc). So that puts in your hand $17K after you pay off interest alone, and then you probably want to put something towards your underlying principal, so after that you'll basically have nothing left (i may be screwing these calculations up royally and please do let me know if I am, but that's what I got). So more realistically you'll probably just pay the maximum required payments on your loan and just carry that forever...

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:46 pm

I also thought this was an interesting article:

My name is Lauren Frances Johnson, I am 27 years old, my date of birth is May 13, 1981. I am from a relatively affluent area of the Detroit suburbs. I was fortunate enough to have help from my parents who paid for my entire undergraduate education. How lucky, is what most people think. However my dream of becoming a lawyer quickly canceled out any luck or privilege I formerly had, and I am now living with a burdensome daily struggle and daily wishes of being less educated and more financially stable. I went to law school at the Michigan State University College of Law. I took out a net of 165k in loans, before interest started to accrue, 70k from the government, 70k from my private lender Citibank, and 15k for a bar loan to help pay for bar study classes. I realized now that I would easily have been able to put myself through law school without any private loans at all, unfortunately no one made me aware of this, the money was available, and I followed the other “sheep” in taking out what I thought were appropriate loans. Oh how I wish I could give that money back now, as I was well overfunded for my actual needs. “Living stipend” is way over rated as far as I am concerned unless it reflects the amount a student needs to live.

I have since graduated law school and passed the bar (first try!). I have used up all of my forbearance and deferment time with Citibank and my bar loan. I fortunately was married in 2007 to a man who is still putting himself through his undergraduate education. We are in a very dire financial position indeed. My Citibank loan payment is stifling, I go without food ALL THE TIME, to pay Citibank, so that my loans don’t default. (I am not convinced defaulting can hurt my credit anymore than it has already been tanked but I figure why not try). I am luckily employed doing personal injury work at a job I love, which does not pay the bills, but is the exact job my education qualifies me for. Citibank asked if I could get a higher paying job, or borrow money from my boyfriend, as if young attorneys can demand their salary and certainly I don’t know anyone willing to help make payments. Obviously in order to work I need a car with insurance, I no longer maintain insurance as I cannot afford it, and live with risk all the time. I have moved into the smallest bungalow possible in order to save on rent money, so that I can pay Citibank. I have contacted Citibank who has told me they will not refinance or consolidate my loan because of the bad economy (as if I, who only eats lunch on REALLY RICH DAYS, did not know about the bad economy). I get no understanding or sympathy from my cosigner who happens to be my wealthy father, he would rather let the loans default than help me make payments. I also get at least 15 phone calls a day from Citibank looking for payments. They call and offer no help or suggestions. If I could catch up on my back payments I would be able to start paying on a monthly basis again. I repeat this to them over and over again to no avail, because Citibank does not want to help me catch up. They would prefer to raise my interest over and over, garnish my wages with no notice or court order, seize my assets, etc. Since I cannot get any break catching up on these loans I am doomed to default, and am bracing for the day.

My biggest worry is that when my husband graduates and his loans are due, I do not believe we will be able to afford to rent a home, and may become homeless. Additionally we have been unable to purchase a home or start a family (a deep desire of mine) because of our financial situation, and there is no change coming.

I feel harassed, and very often out of options. It seems that no matter how far into the future I look I will never be able to afford a home, family, or even basic things like quality food because of these loans. I think it is unconscionable that the government would dare make more loans available before dealing with all those student loan carriers who are in DIRE STRAITS and getting no help. The youth are being starved out of our nation. How are the people who are going to utilize these new programs feel, when after graduation and their dream job, they realize they cannot afford the payments and there is no door to turn too? I love nothing more than watching billions of dollars be delegated as I sit starving in the glowing light of my only television with no cable knowing that a mere $350,000.00, would forever change my life, even it was a financed loan with fair terms.

There are no consumer protection in place to prevent good citizens like me from being in these situations. I am considering filing bankruptcy to discharge my other debt’s and continue to spend every penny I have to pay off Citibank. Those who have already graduated I certainly think deserve some consideration in Washington. There is a critical need to restore standard consumer protections, such as Bankruptcy, statutes of limitations, and refinancing rights to student loans. Also, if there end to the draconian collection practices that make me, a lawyer in good standing, feel as if I am in the same class as criminals because of the collection strategy of Citibank.

Thank you for your time

Lauren Johnson


Source:
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... 2#comments

Your probably sitting there after reading that this person was an idiot. But there are a lot of people I know that go to school here personally that are paying full price go to school at MSU... Don't be that person!

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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:41 pm

Go State wrote:I also thought this was an interesting article:

My name is Lauren Frances Johnson, I am 27 years old, my date of birth is May 13, 1981. I am from a relatively affluent area of the Detroit suburbs. I was fortunate enough to have help from my parents who paid for my entire undergraduate education. How lucky, is what most people think. However my dream of becoming a lawyer quickly canceled out any luck or privilege I formerly had, and I am now living with a burdensome daily struggle and daily wishes of being less educated and more financially stable. I went to law school at the Michigan State University College of Law. I took out a net of 165k in loans, before interest started to accrue, 70k from the government, 70k from my private lender Citibank, and 15k for a bar loan to help pay for bar study classes. I realized now that I would easily have been able to put myself through law school without any private loans at all, unfortunately no one made me aware of this, the money was available, and I followed the other “sheep” in taking out what I thought were appropriate loans. Oh how I wish I could give that money back now, as I was well overfunded for my actual needs. “Living stipend” is way over rated as far as I am concerned unless it reflects the amount a student needs to live.

I have since graduated law school and passed the bar (first try!). I have used up all of my forbearance and deferment time with Citibank and my bar loan. I fortunately was married in 2007 to a man who is still putting himself through his undergraduate education. We are in a very dire financial position indeed. My Citibank loan payment is stifling, I go without food ALL THE TIME, to pay Citibank, so that my loans don’t default. (I am not convinced defaulting can hurt my credit anymore than it has already been tanked but I figure why not try). I am luckily employed doing personal injury work at a job I love, which does not pay the bills, but is the exact job my education qualifies me for. Citibank asked if I could get a higher paying job, or borrow money from my boyfriend, as if young attorneys can demand their salary and certainly I don’t know anyone willing to help make payments. Obviously in order to work I need a car with insurance, I no longer maintain insurance as I cannot afford it, and live with risk all the time. I have moved into the smallest bungalow possible in order to save on rent money, so that I can pay Citibank. I have contacted Citibank who has told me they will not refinance or consolidate my loan because of the bad economy (as if I, who only eats lunch on REALLY RICH DAYS, did not know about the bad economy). I get no understanding or sympathy from my cosigner who happens to be my wealthy father, he would rather let the loans default than help me make payments. I also get at least 15 phone calls a day from Citibank looking for payments. They call and offer no help or suggestions. If I could catch up on my back payments I would be able to start paying on a monthly basis again. I repeat this to them over and over again to no avail, because Citibank does not want to help me catch up. They would prefer to raise my interest over and over, garnish my wages with no notice or court order, seize my assets, etc. Since I cannot get any break catching up on these loans I am doomed to default, and am bracing for the day.

My biggest worry is that when my husband graduates and his loans are due, I do not believe we will be able to afford to rent a home, and may become homeless. Additionally we have been unable to purchase a home or start a family (a deep desire of mine) because of our financial situation, and there is no change coming.

I feel harassed, and very often out of options. It seems that no matter how far into the future I look I will never be able to afford a home, family, or even basic things like quality food because of these loans. I think it is unconscionable that the government would dare make more loans available before dealing with all those student loan carriers who are in DIRE STRAITS and getting no help. The youth are being starved out of our nation. How are the people who are going to utilize these new programs feel, when after graduation and their dream job, they realize they cannot afford the payments and there is no door to turn too? I love nothing more than watching billions of dollars be delegated as I sit starving in the glowing light of my only television with no cable knowing that a mere $350,000.00, would forever change my life, even it was a financed loan with fair terms.

There are no consumer protection in place to prevent good citizens like me from being in these situations. I am considering filing bankruptcy to discharge my other debt’s and continue to spend every penny I have to pay off Citibank. Those who have already graduated I certainly think deserve some consideration in Washington. There is a critical need to restore standard consumer protections, such as Bankruptcy, statutes of limitations, and refinancing rights to student loans. Also, if there end to the draconian collection practices that make me, a lawyer in good standing, feel as if I am in the same class as criminals because of the collection strategy of Citibank.

Thank you for your time

Lauren Johnson


Source:
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... 2#comments

Your probably sitting there after reading that this person was an idiot. But there are a lot of people I know that go to school here personally that are paying full price go to school at MSU... Don't be that person!


1) this person is an idiot
2) i agree you should not pay full price at MSU. Frankly I don't think you should be taking out over 100k in loans to attend anyplace outside of HYS

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Go State
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Go State » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:36 am

Rocketman11 wrote:2) i agree you should not pay full price at MSU. Frankly I don't think you should be taking out over 100k in loans to attend anyplace outside of HYS


I guess I should edit my prior statement then. Don't go to MSU unless you get at least 75% scholarship [AND are 100% sure that you want to work in Michigan when you graduate]. Even 50% scholarship would put you around, if not over, $100K to attend MSU (50% tuition is around $16K a year + ~$15-18K for cost of living, insurance, books, etc., etc. = ~$34K year * 3 years = more than $100K total, since scholarships only cover tuition).

Smart_Guy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Smart_Guy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:44 am

Background info:

I just recently applied to and received an admission offer from the Michigan State University College of Law.

I am a 34 year old ex-engineer/ex-commercial banker with an MBA who is looking to make a career change into IP Law (Both UHLC & MSU are nationally ranked in this filed).

These were the only two schools I applied to for fall 2009 admission.

My undergraduate Engineering degree and my MBA are both from MSU (so I'm a little more partial to diversifying my law school choice).

I do not necessarily care about going to work in NYC or DC BigLaw after graduation, I just want to be given an opportunity to go to work for a mid-sized to large IP Law firm.

MSU offered me a 50% tuition scholarship the first year with an opportunity and liklihood to offer 100% scholarship the remaining 2 years of school. This essentially means I can much more likely graduate from MSU with relatively little or no debt.

UHLC currently has me on their waitlist, but odds are that I will probably be offered admission there as well, but with virtually no financial scholarship assistance (which means taking out more student loans).

MSU is a Tier-3 school (ranked #110 nationally) with a top 20 ranking within the field of IP Law.

UHLC is a lower Tier 1 school (ranked #59 nationally) with a top 7 ranking within the field of IP Law.

MSU is a private institution - $31K/year tuition

UHLC is a public school - $18K/year in-state vs. $26K/year out-of-state (would only be out-of-state for 1 year though)

I currently have about $100K in existing student loan debt.

Both schools place a large number of grads within their respective regions. Although I am a little more partial with the notion of living and working in a city like Houston, TX (or other parts of the southeast for that matter) after graduation as opposed to living and working in the Midwest.


So it looks like it basically comes down to attending a higher-ranked school thats also located in a more desirable Big City, which means better prospects in that particular job market....BUT with the expectation of incurring about $60K of additional student loan debt

vs.

Attending a lower ranked tier 3 school that also happens to be where I attended for both undergrad and my MBA experiences, while also being in a region of the country where my job prospects might not be as promising in terms of coming from a program where the school's national reputation/higher starting salary prospects may not be as likely.....BUT with virtually little or no DEBT.

Any suggestions anyone??


Thanks and sorry for the long post!

AverageGuy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:26 am

You could buy a luxury car for $60K and be making car payments in the future instead of student loan payments, so it's all relative. This isn't as bad as having to borrow $100K+. On top of your existing loans, though, it could be overwhelming.

There might be more patent law opps outside of MI, depending on where big-industry is located. Depending on your publications and other work, patent law firms in D.C. or other big cities might look at you too.

However, I wouldn't be absolutely confident about getting off any WL.

Another factor to consider to a lesser degree is that you could also be eligible for additional scholarships in 2L and 3L depending on performance.

You could, of course, wait another year and expand your choices by applying again. You could use that year off to pay down as much of your existing debt as possible. You could look at part-time programs, assuming that your credentials would let you continue to work - perhaps an employer would contribute to your tuition.

I'm sure you've already done a cost-benefit analysis, comparing potential earnings as a lawyer against the debt plus three years of lost income and 401K contributions in your current employment situation. In the current market, lawyers are not particularly employable. This may change in three years, but there will be three-more years of recent law graduates in the marketplace too.

Congratulations on your options - I wish MSU would give me a few dollars of your scholarship money!

Smart_Guy
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Smart_Guy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:42 am

AverageGuy wrote:You could buy a luxury car for $60K and be making car payments in the future instead of student loan payments, so it's all relative. This isn't as bad as having to borrow $100K+. On top of your existing loans, though, it could be overwhelming.

There might be more patent law opps outside of MI, depending on where big-industry is located. Depending on your publications and other work, patent law firms in D.C. or other big cities might look at you too.

However, I wouldn't be absolutely confident about getting off any WL.

Another factor to consider to a lesser degree is that you could also be eligible for additional scholarships in 2L and 3L depending on performance.

You could, of course, wait another year and expand your choices by applying again. You could use that year off to pay down as much of your existing debt as possible. You could look at part-time programs, assuming that your credentials would let you continue to work - perhaps an employer would contribute to your tuition.

I'm sure you've already done a cost-benefit analysis, comparing potential earnings as a lawyer against the debt plus three years of lost income and 401K contributions in your current employment situation. In the current market, lawyers are not particularly employable. This may change in three years, but there will be three-more years of recent law graduates in the marketplace too.

Congratulations on your options - I wish MSU would give me a few dollars of your scholarship money!



Thanks for the feedback....

I'm looking at the cost benefit analysis and it appears that MSU, as a private institution, will costs upwards of $31K/yr....not including COL expenses (which could effectively mean another $15K/year).

Plus from what I read on US News, the median starting salaries for (75th percentile) UH law grads is somewhere around $140K....for MSU this number is somewhere in the $70K range....so effectively even without scholarship assistance at UH, I'd still come out cheaper than I would at MSU even with scholarship assistance...and with much better job prospects (all things being equal). Plus I've spent both my UG and MBA years at MSU, so I'm feeling a little more biased at the thought of going to school in Houston (where it doesn't snow in the winter) as opposed to spending 3 more years in East Lansing, MI....

Sounds like I just talked myself into going to UHLC and becoming a cougar! Of course none of this means anything if I don't make it off the waitlist :-(

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:08 am

Smart_Guy wrote:

Thanks for the feedback....

I'm looking at the cost benefit analysis and it appears that MSU, as a private institution, will costs upwards of $31K/yr....not including COL expenses (which could effectively mean another $15K/year).

Plus from what I read on US News, the median starting salaries for (75th percentile) UH law grads is somewhere around $140K....for MSU this number is somewhere in the $70K range....so effectively even without scholarship assistance at UH, I'd still come out cheaper than I would at MSU even with scholarship assistance...and with much better job prospects (all things being equal). Plus I've spent both my UG and MBA years at MSU, so I'm feeling a little more biased at the thought of going to school in Houston (where it doesn't snow in the winter) as opposed to spending 3 more years in East Lansing, MI....

Sounds like I just talked myself into going to UHLC and becoming a cougar! Of course none of this means anything if I don't make it off the waitlist :-(


Dunno how much stock I'd put in median salaries in this job market... which probably won't be better 3 years from now.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby Rocketman11 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:56 pm

I just scoped out the law building. It is incredibly depressing! Has anyone else noticed that? The stadium seating rooms have these cheapass plastic chairs (I took my LSAT at GULC and they had amazing leather seats in a similar room, for example). I realize these two schools give you vastly different educations, however I'm somewhat surprised to see the facilities are so different. MSU looks like they had a spare building and thought "eh, let's throw a law school in here." Dunno, maybe it's because it was overcast today but I just didn't get a good vibe from my visit, or the surrounding area.

fordtheriver
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Re: Michigan State Law Class of 2012

Postby fordtheriver » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:17 pm

Rocketman11 wrote:I just scoped out the law building. It is incredibly depressing! Has anyone else noticed that? The stadium seating rooms have these cheapass plastic chairs (I took my LSAT at GULC and they had amazing leather seats in a similar room, for example). I realize these two schools give you vastly different educations, however I'm somewhat surprised to see the facilities are so different. MSU looks like they had a spare building and thought "eh, let's throw a law school in here." Dunno, maybe it's because it was overcast today but I just didn't get a good vibe from my visit, or the surrounding area.

really? i thought it was nicer than a lot of "better ranked" (t50) schools I toured. go figure. lleather seats sound nice though.




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