Rutgers-Newark Class of 2012 Forum

[losjeans]

Important to Me:
Diversity, BigLaw & clerkship (I still don't know which route I'll enjoy the most), Reputation in NY/NJ & Florida, friendly environment (not too competitive or too many gunners), career prospects, and weekend night life

As you probably know, R-N is rated by Princeton Review as the most diverse campus in the nation. The law school is statistically more diverse than other local schools, I can cite this if need be. A reason I like the school as well.

Have you seen the employment prospects chart? I think it's NLJ. The results are nice, putting R-N ahead of Brooklyn, Cardozo, and Seton Hall for placement in large firms. Check the R-N website as well, they are very transparent with current career placement. In the same chart referenced above, clerkship placement is great. (Can someone post this chart?)

I get the impression that it's a friendly environment, but note that I'm not there yet. After talking with current students and faculty, they seem to emphasize that it's a cohesive student body and this is the way they want it to be. Notice that attrition and transfer rates are very low, that should be telling if you ask me.

See above for career prospects, and I'll add that a 94% employment six months after graduation indicates a very healthy network.

I don't know too much about nightlife in Newark, as I live in Jersey City, but I recently moved here and it's fantastic. Hoboken, Manhattan, and places local to JC are way too much fun. I love it here.

EDIT: To address Florida, I wouldn't advise going to Rutgers if you intend to practice there; not because you won't be able to get a job there necessarily, but because you'd be better off going to UF, FSU, Miami, etc. But if you want to live and work in the tri-state, that changes things.

[losjeans]

I hate sounding like an ad for the school since I don't even go there, for one thing. And great write-up dapoetic, we're on the same wavelength it appears.

[dapoetic1]

--LinkRemoved--

[Dacos]

Well Dacos I will start by saying that law school is a very personal choice and should be given a lot of consideration. Not everyone has the same needs or goals going in or coming out. So I can only speak the specific things I was looking for in a school and why I was drawn to Rutgers.

Let me also say that if you sign a 12 month lease in the state of New jersey either on or off campus you will be billed as a New Jersey resident from day 1. It's that simple. That is in fact a tuition difference of roughly $16k/year.
Which is most certainly one of the things I looked when deciding on a school. while I certainly believe that money should not be a barrier to prevent anyone from attending a great school I also believe in the sound principles of economics.
Much like I believe that Chevy may want to charge $40k for an SUV and some people are willing to pay that price I believe I can get just as good of a vehicle (or even that vehicle) for much less. Law school is no different. There are schools that will want to charge $40k/year and there are people willing to pay that amount, but I believe in sound investments.

I believe that Rutgers graduates are extremely competitive in the NY metro (this includes NJ, and also parts of PA and CT). They have a solid reputation among legal professionals in large, mid and small firms, as well as among judges that hire clerks. Obviously the majority of their judicial clerks work in NJ but the networking and doors that will be opened from clerking in NJ are going to be just as substantial as those working in any other large city. Since it is commonly noted that NJ is really an extension of NYC you can pretty much trust that the legal professionals in NJ are included in the networking of those in NY. Law jobs are all about networking and getting your foot in the door. The large number of grads that go into clerkships is extremely high, and after a clerkship so many more doors are opened for you.

I have asked dozens and dozens of legal professional from NY,DC, LA,Chi, Atlanta, phoenix and some smaller cities what they think the biggest weakness is of the summer and incoming associates. They all either said writing or lack of clinical experience. AS far as clinical experience almost no other school does is better than Rutgers. They offer a truly extensive in-house clinical program with incredible access to the surrounding community. The professors that run the clinics are also heavily involved on a day to day basis with current legal issues and working in the clinics or as a researcher with the professors allows you first hand access to actual legal work while in school. The clinics give you the opportunity to work with an attorney and go to court, write briefs, file documents and watch trials all while in school. You don't just receive theoretical knowledge you also receive very practical knowledge.

The legal research and writing curriculum at Rutgers is also very extensive. They have a list of mandatory writing courses as well as writing intensive courses that are a part of the larger legal curriculum. In addition to having a business school right across from the law school the number of courses that area available to brush up on your writing skills in different elements in quite high.

Access to one of the largest legal markets can not be discounted. Obviously there are a number of top notch law schools in NYC and Rutgers is certainly on that list. If you search the reputable legal profession websites (like NALP) you will see that many top firms recruit at Rutgers and many Rutgers grads are associates of counsel and partners at a number of firms in NYC and NJ. Many Rutgers grads work in both the NJ and NY offices of a lot of firms b/c the NJ/NY market are so tightly knit. Again, the professors at Rutgers are currently working on legal issues and obviously they have many ties to many area of the legal market.

The Rutgers name is NOT just known in NJ/NY. The reputation of Rutgers' grads is known in the Chicago market as well as DC and I'm sure in other secondary markets (although I have not specifically looked into these smaller markets). The proximity to NYC and the relatively cheap cost of the proximity can not be overlooked. Rutgers places a high emphasis on trying to making sure it's students secure solid summer jobs that lead to employment during the school year and ultimately full time employment after graduation. Due to the low cost the students at Rutgers are able to take jobs in the Public Interest area or government arena without sacrificing quality of life. The Loan Repayment program is also very generous capping the maximum amount you can make to receive repayment at $55k the first year and with increases every year to account for reasonable raises. so you don't feel like you have to take a biglaw job to have a life if you don't want one.

A large number of students at Rutgers communte from PA or NY because they are currently working somewhere or have previously worked. To me (and this is a very personal reason) I like a school that has a greater number of older students because it really changes the dynamics of a school from an extension of undergrad to a professional school. Also on the subject of the student body Rutgers is incredibly diverse. I don't think in any one class there will be one black person or one asian person. So minorities don't have to feel like whenever a subject about race comes up they're "the ones" everyone looks to. That really makes for a lot of great discussion. Not all minorities have the same point of view and there will never just be one minority point of view because all of the classes are quite diverse.

They have a low curve (about 3.0) and they do not publish class rank to employers so that when it come time to do job interviews employers can not discriminately refuse to interview certain students because of class rank--they won't know it. This allows students to have t showcase themselves to employers and hopefully get interviews at places that might not otherwise consider them. Also they have finals at the end of the semester not at the end of the year. So if you do poorly after the first semester they have time to get together with you and your professors and figure out how to get your grades up before the end of the 1L year.

I think there were a few other reasons but these were my main reasons. I hope they help you.

EDIT: Newark isn't the greatest city in the world but it's a quick train ride to Jersey City which I think is fantastic and it's a very quick train ride to Manhattan via the PATH. The night/weekend life in NYC is of course...unparalleled.

Thanks for the info! Are you a student there? you seem to know alot of valuable info about the school. If you got a minute or two, what do you know about housing? Is living in campus better than off-campus? Also, is the minority student program really helpful or is it just there to attract minorities?

Thanks!

[dapoetic1]

I PM'd you about a post I did on housing.

I had a chance to talk to Dean Walton about what happens in the MSP
-Basically it started in the 1970's because Rutgers realized it was too white and too male
-Initially it was intended to increase the number of ethnic minorities and women at the school
-They wanted to more represent what Newark and the tri-state area looked like since that was the area they served the most

Since then the program has changed dramatically. Rutgers is constantly praised for it's approach to diversifying the legal profession and the law school environment. From what Dean Walton said not all minorities are in MSP and not all MSP students are ethnic minorities. There are a group of professors that work specifically with the MSP during the 1L year but just because a student in a minority that doesn't mean that there is some kind of stigma surrounding them in class or around the school. It's just one tool to ensure that minorities are not isolated when it comes to study groups and information. There are some circumstances surrounding employment in the legal profession that are specific to minorities/women and MSP just tries to address these issues.
After the 1L year it seems most MSP students have little interaction with the program except the instances that some 2L and 3L students serve as mentors or study group leaders.

[Dacos]

Rutgers employment statistics in 2010 rankings:

Rutgers Newark 85-160k
Source: the 2010 rankings leak that came out last night

Looks like even though Rutgers took a hit in rankings, they improved their employment statistics.

I have a hard time understanding how Rutgers could do so well and be ranked in the 80's. And does anyone know exactly why Seton Hall is ranked better than Rutgers?

[losjeans]

I have a hard time understanding how Rutgers could do so well and be ranked in the 80's. And does anyone know exactly why Seton Hall is ranked better than Rutgers?

The rankings are based on poorly chosen criteria as a whole, and poorly assigned weight to said criteria. And I think the new building at Seton Hall has something to do with it, among other things.

[holmesNYC]

Dacos,
Losjeans and dapoetic1 have done such a good job talking about Rutgers that I can't think of a single thing to add. I agree with all they've said and have taken the same points into consideration in deciding that Rutgers is the right school for me.
Also, keep in mind that you can work your summers in another region of the country to establish contacts there. It requires more legwork, but people do it. Good luck with your decision.

[dapoetic1]

<---------- Wants a job in admissions if a real law gig doesn't work out

[phooey182]

I'm trying to decide if I should go to Rutgers-Newark, can you summarize your research pros and cons of the school? Or can anyone else be kind enough to tell me why they choose Rutgers-Newark?

Well, we'll all be there. Isn't that enough?

[Zeph]

I'm trying to decide if I should go to Rutgers-Newark, can you summarize your research pros and cons of the school? Or can anyone else be kind enough to tell me why they choose Rutgers-Newark?

Well, we'll all be there. Isn't that enough?

Lol speaking of this, if I don't get in, I'll have to start talking to the kids at the school I made a deposit in >_<

I spend way to much time stalking Rutgers Threads

this is where i want to be though

[afterglow99]

Important to Me:
Diversity, BigLaw & clerkship (I still don't know which route I'll enjoy the most), Reputation in NY/NJ & Florida, friendly environment (not too competitive or too many gunners), career prospects, and weekend night life

As you probably know, R-N is rated by Princeton Review as the most diverse campus in the nation. The law school is statistically more diverse than other local schools, I can cite this if need be. A reason I like the school as well.

Have you seen the employment prospects chart? I think it's NLJ. The results are nice, putting R-N ahead of Brooklyn, Cardozo, and Seton Hall for placement in large firms. Check the R-N website as well, they are very transparent with current career placement. In the same chart referenced above, clerkship placement is great. (Can someone post this chart?)

I get the impression that it's a friendly environment, but note that I'm not there yet. After talking with current students and faculty, they seem to emphasize that it's a cohesive student body and this is the way they want it to be. Notice that attrition and transfer rates are very low, that should be telling if you ask me.

See above for career prospects, and I'll add that a 94% employment six months after graduation indicates a very healthy network.

I don't know too much about nightlife in Newark, as I live in Jersey City, but I recently moved here and it's fantastic. Hoboken, Manhattan, and places local to JC are way too much fun. I love it here.

EDIT: To address Florida, I wouldn't advise going to Rutgers if you intend to practice there; not because you won't be able to get a job there necessarily, but because you'd be better off going to UF, FSU, Miami, etc. But if you want to live and work in the tri-state, that changes things.

The whole clerkship placement issue is really interesting. All 3 Jersey schools (Seton, Rutgers N, Rutgers C) have crazy clerkship numbers. Are these just easier to get in Jersey for some reason, or are all 3 schools just doing something right?

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

[dapoetic1]

The whole clerkship placement issue is really interesting. All 3 Jersey schools (Seton, Rutgers N, Rutgers C) have crazy clerkship numbers. Are these just easier to get in Jersey for some reason, or are all 3 schools just doing something right?

I think a combination of both. I went to the Universit of Pittsburgh a while back and discovered they do extremely well getting their students into clerkships in Pittsburgh and the surrounding PA counties. Now with all those schools in PA one would have to wonder what in the world Pitt is doing so well. For starters most kids at UPenn that want biglaw or clerkships want them in NY (or maybe Philly) and the kids at Temple and Nova don't rely heavily on clerkship placement because they're outplaced by UPenn but when their students do secure clerkships they're typically in Philly. So that leave the entire western side of PA an open market and Pitt has tapped into that market early. Once you get a reputation with certain judges it just becomes a matter of funnelling students in.

In NJ there are only 3 schools but the state of NJ is far underserved when it comes to the legal profession because their population and their connection with being a NYC extension causes them to have the need of NYC legal professionals without the pipeline. So the NJ schools are in a perfect position. They have the upperhand on the legal market in the state and due to the excellent reputation of all 3 schools they can easily fill a need within the state without overextending themselves.

Now I think if Princeton had a law school and it was of the calibur of all the over Ivy Law schools (which it would be) I would say the current NJ law schools would probably all fall second fiddle to Princeton Law much like PA schools fall second to UPenn. Luckily--Princeton hasn't stolen their thunder and they therefore reap the benefits.

I'm sure in Vermont the Univ. of Vermont has all the law clerks in the state, and it's probably the same in Utah (U of U, BYU) and Nevada (UNLV being the only law school in the state).

[Dacos]

The whole clerkship placement issue is really interesting. All 3 Jersey schools (Seton, Rutgers N, Rutgers C) have crazy clerkship numbers. Are these just easier to get in Jersey for some reason, or are all 3 schools just doing something right?

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

Interesting observation... now you got me wondering the same thing

[instant83]

Hey bayberry, do you have a link for the fbook group you mentioned?

Btw, I was also in the corporate law class on ASD. (I was the one who gave the portfolio manager/investor fiduciary example)

[Zeph]

Hey bayberry, do you have a link for the fbook group you mentioned?

Btw, I was also in the corporate law class on ASD. (I was the one who gave the portfolio manager/investor fiduciary example)

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... &ref=share

[holmesNYC]

Also, R-N got a new dean: "John J. Farmer, Jr. Named Dean of the Law School"

http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/

Hey, thanks for the news. I had been wondering recently when they would finally select (or announce) the new Dean. Does anyone have any opinions about this guy? Besides his ridiculous hair? He seems to have a solid background, though he hasn't been a dean before.

[losjeans]

Hey, thanks for the news. I had been wondering recently when they would finally select (or announce) the new Dean. Does anyone have any opinions about this guy? Besides his ridiculous hair? He seems to have a solid background, though he hasn't been a dean before.

It was no trouble. I searched around a bit to see some professional opinions on their selection of dean but I came out empty-handed. I don't think anyone really knows what to expect, at least that's my guess as to why opinions are lacking. But given his career I think he fits well with the school's mission; extremely well, in fact.

I'm a bit thrown though since they didn't pull someone from academia. But I'd wager this will increase connections for the school in Government and private practice, considering his career and so on. I'm really impressed by his position as senior counsel on the 9/11 Commission, I really enjoyed reading the Report.

[jrod]

how do you all feel about rutgers-n placement in nyc vs. sju. i'm really struggling w/ this decision. (also have yet to hear from fordham, bls, dozo.

[holmesNYC]

It was no trouble. I searched around a bit to see some professional opinions on their selection of dean but I came out empty-handed. I don't think anyone really knows what to expect, at least that's my guess as to why opinions are lacking. But given his career I think he fits well with the school's mission; extremely well, in fact.

I'm a bit thrown though since they didn't pull someone from academia. But I'd wager this will increase connections for the school in Government and private practice, considering his career and so on. I'm really impressed by his position as senior counsel on the 9/11 Commission, I really enjoyed reading the Report.

Yes, and the fact that he is the former AG is quite impressive also. I'm from NY, so this is akin to Mario Cuomo one day becoming Dean of SUNY-Buffalo. I mean, that would be HUGE, HUGE news. The relative lack of chatter about Farmer's appointment goes to show how NJ's legal market gets overshadowed by NY's, and I think lends some credence to Dapoetic1's assessment of the positive clerkship situation in NJ.

This article tells a bit more about his path to becoming the Dean, but the comments section seems to have been hijacked by an angry taxpayer:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/0 ... l_joh.html

[holmesNYC]

how do you all feel about rutgers-n placement in nyc vs. sju. i'm really struggling w/ this decision. (also have yet to hear from fordham, bls, dozo.

Have you seen this chart? --LinkRemoved--
It may not be an entirely accurate representation and the data is about three years old, but it's about the only reputable source we have for regional placement stats in NYC.

St. John's has a very strong alumni network and that should not be discounted. But I've also heard that competition as St. John's is intense (anecdotally, as well as its ranking of #5 on Princeton Review's 2009 Most Competitive Students list).

It's a very personal choice. For my goals, personality, and finances, I think Rutgers is the best fit out of my options. Maybe you can make a spreadsheet comparison of the two schools using the criteria that are important to you. When you see it all in front of you on paper the decision may become more clear. I did the same thing earlier on in the process and went so far as to list all of the electives that interested me. Also, if you're local, visit as many times as necessary to help decide.

[donewithannarbor]

Glad to see this conversation ongoing, and the fact that you all have kept your cool better than me in spite of this latest rankings drop. The perception of RU in the US News community is getting further and further from reality. Its real reputation is sterling in NJ, and fortified in NY. As we all know, the underlying institution is a nationally-recognized public ivy, thus RN will get you more respect in distant markets that Seton or Brooklyn. RN has not gamed the system, and, in many respects, has not tried hard enough to legitimately play to the ranking system. I don't want things to get out of hand, and I know that rankings have a snowball effect in this competitive law school industry; I can assure that RN senses that this is the time to rededicate itself to shoring up its reputation in the mass media (which matters to prospective students). The reality on the ground, though, where it matters, is that RN is still a solid, rigorous (yet community-focused and collegial) law school that does some pretty amazing things. There are some damn important people here. Prof. Askin, i.e., just argued yet another constitutional case in front of the Federal District Court this morning.

I'm a 1L. Please PM me any questions about the schools, including admin/housing questions. I won't have time to check the thread, but hit me up.

[losjeans]

Yes, and the fact that he is the former AG is quite impressive also. I'm from NY, so this is akin to Mario Cuomo one day becoming Dean of SUNY-Buffalo. I mean, that would be HUGE, HUGE news. The relative lack of chatter about Farmer's appointment goes to show how NJ's legal market gets overshadowed by NY's, and I think lends some credence to Dapoetic1's assessment of the positive clerkship situation in NJ.

This article tells a bit more about his path to becoming the Dean, but the comments section seems to have been hijacked by an angry taxpayer:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/0 ... l_joh.html

I'm really interested on how this plays out. How many schools have a Dean that wasn't out of the Academy?

And of all things to complain about...the salary of a law school dean? People can complain about anything, and I should know I'm addicted to reading the comments sections.

[losjeans]

RN has not gamed the system, and, in many respects, has not tried hard enough to legitimately play to the ranking system. I don't want things to get out of hand, and I know that rankings have a snowball effect in this competitive law school industry; I can assure that RN senses that this is the time to rededicate itself to shoring up its reputation in the mass media (which matters to prospective students).

I am under the impression that RN doesn't have much interest in USN, is this a misguided notion? At the end of the day, access to good jobs is what's important to me...low-ranking or high-ranking.

[dapoetic1]

how do you all feel about rutgers-n placement in nyc vs. sju. i'm really struggling w/ this decision. (also have yet to hear from fordham, bls, dozo.

When it comes down to it employers in NY are more than familiar with all the schools in NYC and they're also familiar with the 3 schools across the street (Rutgers and Seaton)
Here's the difference between R-N and Cardozo, Fordham, Brooklyn, NYLS, St J, Pace, Hofstra and every other school that isn't NYU, Columbia and Cornell.

Employers want students that don't have their heads up their asses on day one!!! Plain and simple. In this market firms don't have time to coddle and hold the hands of every doe-eyed 1st associate. That's why they've cut back on the lavish summer associates nonsense and have decided to look at summer associates in terms of actual future employees. They want to know what can you do on day one to help the firm. The answer to that is--not much. As a first year you're not going to be able to do a whole lot, BUT and this is a big but Rutgers-N does it's absolute best to make sure that while you're in school you have the opportunity to get your hands dirty doing actual legal work. Their clinics put you in the position to go into a job on the first day and be able to actually produce some half way decent work. Will you still have a ton of things to learn, absolutely, but the more hands on and practical experience you get while in school the better of you'll be.
That's what separates Rutgers-N from Seton Hall. That's what separates Rutgers from all those other schools. Their mission is to prepare students with pratical, real-world knowledge. Just take a look at the website and see what kinds of things the professors are doing on a daily basis. Who do you think helps the professors write the briefs to take to court, and runs the legal clinics? The students.

I specifically asked Dean Walton what she thought accounted for Rutgers' ability to get students jobs in such a competitive NYC market on such a consistent basis? And her answer without trepidation was Legal Clinics!!!

Talk to any current legal professional (judge, senior associate, partner...) ask him/her what the biggest weakness of most law grads is coming into the job and they'll tell you lack of real world experience.