Michigan 2012

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2012)
snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:12 pm

USC2009 wrote:Awesome! Thanks. I've been looking into peacoats and 3-in-1 jackets lately, but I don't really like buying stuff online and California isn't big on heavywear.

There is an REI here. They will have everything you need, and you will have plenty of time to get it. I don't think they even restock winter wear until around October 1.

USC2009 wrote:When you say I won't need either of the tires - do you mean I won't need snow tires at all, or just not the ones with studs in them?

Regular tires work year round. They plow and sand / salt the roads pretty well as needed, at least in town. Just don't drive like a knucklehead and you'll be fine.
Last edited by snotrocket on Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:14 pm

USC2009 wrote:Wow. I just looked at the UofM '11 thread and it made it to 32 pages. We're at 89 and we just got to June... :shock:

I think we had an edge this year, after the 2012 thread got hijacked by current students bitching about grades.

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tl
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby tl » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:39 pm

.

Merriweather
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby Merriweather » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:04 pm

whoever doesn't want to pay 25/month, you're insane

and i still dont have 2 +LP grades.

snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm

Merriweather wrote:and i still dont have 2 +LP grades.

WTF? You really have no legal practice grade? Is your instructor dead? We turned in the last assignment for that class like two months ago.

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joyce615
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby joyce615 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:14 pm

snotrocket wrote:
tl wrote:For Fall 2008, the median GPA for 1Ls classes was 3.23. First, I don't see how then the median GPA for individuals will be a 3.3 when the exact same data is used (it's just grouped differently). However, I'm not an expert at statistics, so I'll assume that that can happen. Upperclass Courses median GPA was a 3.46. Seminar median GPA was a 3.67. There are way more upperclass courses and seminars than 1L courses. When you apply that difference over 4 semesters, is it even statistically possible for the median GPA to only go up .04?

You have to keep in mind the difference between mean and median. The grading guidelines and the report you linked deal with the target and actual means and do not consider the per class or cumulative medians. We can just take the grading guidelines and construct a distribution of grades using them to see why this matters.

Figure that the class has 100 students and the professor grades precisely according to the specified curve (see table below). The arithmetic mean for the class will be 3.19 -- right on target. But the median is the grade that falls in the middle of the list of all grades assigned, sorted from highest to lowest. Because we have an even number of grades here, the median is the average of the two grades that straddle the exact center -- positions 50 and 51. Both grades in those slots are B+, so the median is 3.30. Another measure of curve shape is the mode, or the value that occurs most often. Here the mode is also 3.30/B+ (30 out of 100 people receive this grade). This situation -- where the median and mode both fall higher than the mean -- is the definition of a curve that is skewed to the left (meaning it has a fat upper end and a long skinny left tail). This is a typical shape -- by design -- for grading curves at all top schools.

So, if we had 100 students and they all took one class graded according to the specified curve, it's not only statistically possible, it's statistically inevitable that the mean will wind up at 3.19 and the median at 3.30. Classes vary somewhat, and the mean of means (reported in the document you linked above) lands closer to the high limit than the target. But even if all classes go high on the curve, this will not move the median much, if at all. And even though not all people will get the same grade in all classes, the curve in each class is a zero-sum game, so anyone doing better in one class will correspond with someone else doing worse. Overall, the distribution of cumulative GPAs for the entire class of ~360 people will fall right in line with the target curve followed by the individual classes, so the overall distribution will have the same character noted above -- fat upper end and long, skinny left tail, with a median and mode noticeably higher than the mean.

As far as the increases between 1L and upper class GPAs go, again you have to keep in mind the difference between mean and median. A big change in per class or cumulative means might move the median only slightly or not at all. This is in fact one of the reasons for using these measures of central tendency together -- the median is generally more stable and less responsive to outliers and changes in the shape of the distribution compared with the mean. Even if we assume a far softer curve, say with 20% A+/A, 25% A-, 40% B+, 15% B, and nothing lower, the mean will shift dramatically to 3.50, but the median will still be 3.30/B+ just like before. So a modest upward shift of 3.30 to 3.34 seems right in line with what we would expect, given that the median shifts far less than the mean, and that, as noted above, the bulk of credit hours (not classes, but total credits taken) still have to fall in according to the grading guidelines.

--ImageRemoved--


so would you say that the clerkship memo is a good guide to guess our individual ranking?

snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:31 pm

joyce615 wrote:so would you say that the clerkship memo is a good guide to guess our individual ranking?

Well, it's the only guide we've got. If would say that it's a least a good guide to the probable lower bound of your 1L rank. If you finish with a 3.7, then I think it's safe to assume you're in the top 10%, 3.3 above median, etc. I'm not sure we can figure how much the exact cutoffs might move between 1L and graduation, because we can't recreate a continuous distribution of cumulative GPA from the grading guidelines alone. The broader cutoffs like top 20%, 33%, 50% are probably at least in the ballpark for 1L -- maybe somewhat higher. Beyond that, it gets more speculative.

annarborbound
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby annarborbound » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:25 pm

Are other people locked out of Wolverine Access, too? I was trying to check it on the chance that my remaining grades were posted, but now I can't even log in...

snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:06 pm

annarborbound wrote:Are other people locked out of Wolverine Access, too? I was trying to check it on the chance that my remaining grades were posted, but now I can't even log in...

I can't get in at the moment, so I think it's not just you.

MLaw11
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby MLaw11 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:04 pm

So I'm wondering what the appropriate credit load is during the interview season. PRS gave me 15 credits, 3 of which I was going to P/F. I don't really know how much work a P/F class is, and whether this courseload is excessive (I obviously wouldn't take 15 graded). Also, are the interviews evenly distributed across the week or does a light Thursday and Friday make it better?

I know there are a few upperclassmen around here still...thoughts?

snotrocket
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby snotrocket » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:06 pm

MLaw11 wrote:So I'm wondering what the appropriate credit load is during the interview season. PRS gave me 15 credits, 3 of which I was going to P/F. I don't really know how much work a P/F class is, and whether this courseload is excessive (I obviously wouldn't take 15 graded). Also, are the interviews evenly distributed across the week or does a light Thursday and Friday make it better? I know there are a few upperclassmen around here still...thoughts?

Just passing along advice I heard via LAWOPEN, etc. -- I was told that Fall 2L is the time to take as close to 10 credits as you can.

charliec9
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby charliec9 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:17 pm

MLaw11 wrote:So I'm wondering what the appropriate credit load is during the interview season. PRS gave me 15 credits, 3 of which I was going to P/F. I don't really know how much work a P/F class is, and whether this courseload is excessive (I obviously wouldn't take 15 graded). Also, are the interviews evenly distributed across the week or does a light Thursday and Friday make it better?

I know there are a few upperclassmen around here still...thoughts?


Depending on your goals, I wouldn't take less than 12. I took 12 or 13 and pass/failed 1. I had journal stuff along with 9 callbacks. My grades ended up being really good, but I can't say I didn't feel the strain. 15 would be too much for most, I'd wager.

10 is too few, IMO. If you end up on an ed-board for journal, you don't want to be making up all of those credits during second term along w/ new ed board resp. If you have clerkship aspirations (I did/do, so I didn't want to overload third year too much), you don't want to be making them up third year first term either. And by the end of third year, you'll want the least amount of credits possible.

06072010
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby 06072010 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:37 pm

I did 15 this last semester and it was brutal. Would not recommend.

Alexandria
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby Alexandria » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:47 pm

15 credits is still a pretty heavy courseload, even with 3 p/f. Fall semester of 2L year, I took 12 and P/Fed 6. It was sweet. I think I did 11 callbacks, so the easy courseload was necessary.

I think it's mostly possible to just do callbacks on Thursday/Friday, but I had to do a couple on Tuesdays, too. Everyone wants the Thursdays and Fridays, and since you don't want to schedule your callbacks too late (bc then it's harder to get an offer), you may find you need to schedule some on other weekdays.

My upperclass semesters are/will be 12 (6 p/f), 13 (3), 13 (3), 13 (3).

Or possibly my 3L year will be 16 (p/f 6, but 3 of those are actually not a class, but an extra-curricular I get credit for), 10 (no pf).

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joyce615
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby joyce615 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:05 pm

man pass/failing 6 units sound awesome. i wish i could do that. i'm guessing you didn't do a clinic?

also, if you don't mind revealing, what was your callback/offer ratio?

Alexandria
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby Alexandria » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:20 pm

No, no clinic. It just wasn't worth it to me. I have a lot of friends who have done it, and what you get out of it seems to vary a lot depending on what clinic you get into and, I suppose, what your long-term goals are. For some, it's fantastic, and for others it was a complete waste of time. Also, while you get a lot of credits, everyone says it's more work than the credits you get. That's unappealing.

I think my callback ratio was like 60/40 offers (sorry, it's hard to remember everything, especially because I am not even positive exactly how many callbacks I received versus how many I went on, partly because I canceled some and partly because I just can't remember... I had a 100% OCI interview to callback rate in my hometown mid-size market, and it wasn't worth going on all of them, once I got some early offers). I very much felt that it was easier to get an offer early, rather than later. But keep in mind that the worst of the economic crash happened in the middle of callback season for us. I had a very high offer rate early on and then much, much worse toward the end. One of the firms that was my very favorites, I feel that I scheduled too late, and I didn't get an offer. (Of course, I was also exhausted by that point in callback season and don't think I had a great interview. I felt like a zombie.) But in the end, I'm extremely happy with how things turned out (and surprised by the city/firm I ended up in).

MLaw11
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby MLaw11 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:30 pm

Well that's more responses than I expected, and certainly a lot quicker. Thanks everyone. 12 credits with 9 graded it is.

WIdan
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby WIdan » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:31 pm

Do any of the current students know much about or have experience with any of the following clinics?

Innocence Clinic
Mediation Clinic
Criminal Appellate Clinic

Are there particular clinics that are most popular and therefore harder to get into?

BigBlockofCheeseDay
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby BigBlockofCheeseDay » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:59 pm

WIdan wrote:Do any of the current students know much about or have experience with any of the following clinics?

Innocence Clinic
Mediation Clinic
Criminal Appellate Clinic

Are there particular clinics that are most popular and therefore harder to get into?


I'm actually really interested in the International Transactions Clinic. I know its pretty new, but has anyone been involved in that at all?

Alexandria
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby Alexandria » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:49 pm

I've heard horrible things about it, honestly. But that doesn't mean it won't get better. Just that the first try at it wasn't perhaps quite as well developed as it should have been before students became involved.

I have a close friend who was in Innocence Clinic and loved it.

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joyce615
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby joyce615 » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:21 pm

thanks for all the helpful advice, alexandria and everyone else.

scarletmuse
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby scarletmuse » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:25 pm

I did Mediation Clinic the last time it was offered and loved it. It's a very small group (we were 6) that meets once a week to discuss general dispute resolution principles. One great aspect is that the school puts you through the state certification program – you could even get yourself on the court rosters as a mediator after you put in your training hours. Once you've completed the training, you self-schedule mediations through a district court (doing small claims and landlord tenant stuff, mostly) and through a community dispute resolution center (where the disputes run the gamut)

One downside is that the Washtenaw County Dispute Resolution Center didn't allow us to do our mediations with them (they wanted the school to pay them...and really, asking your volunteers to pay you for the opportunity to work for free is a little cheeky). We ended up doing most of our work up in Genessee County. Flint, to be specific. It's a bit of a haul, but the flip side is that you're working with people who genuinely need the help.

I think the mediation clinic really unique compared to most of the other clinics (and a VERY light workload for 3 credits). Mediators do not need to be licensed attorneys, so it's not as though you work under anyone else's supervision - you get the training and Go!. This is also a terrific experience for anyone who doesn't plan to use his/her JD to be a giant, litigious asshat. After 2 years of law school, it was great to be solving problems rather than prolonging them.

FWIW, several of my close friends were in Innocence Clinic (including the one Alexandria referenced) and loved it.

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summertimechi
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby summertimechi » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:56 pm

are there on-campus jobs available for those students who aren't awarded work-study funds?

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itzjulz
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby itzjulz » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:56 pm

scarletmuse wrote:I did Mediation Clinic the last time it was offered and loved it. It's a very small group (we were 6) that meets once a week to discuss general dispute resolution principles. One great aspect is that the school puts you through the state certification program – you could even get yourself on the court rosters as a mediator after you put in your training hours. Once you've completed the training, you self-schedule mediations through a district court (doing small claims and landlord tenant stuff, mostly) and through a community dispute resolution center (where the disputes run the gamut)

One downside is that the Washtenaw County Dispute Resolution Center didn't allow us to do our mediations with them (they wanted the school to pay them...and really, asking your volunteers to pay you for the opportunity to work for free is a little cheeky). We ended up doing most of our work up in Genessee County. Flint, to be specific. It's a bit of a haul, but the flip side is that you're working with people who genuinely need the help.

I think the mediation clinic really unique compared to most of the other clinics (and a VERY light workload for 3 credits). Mediators do not need to be licensed attorneys, so it's not as though you work under anyone else's supervision - you get the training and Go!. This is also a terrific experience for anyone who doesn't plan to use his/her JD to be a giant, litigious asshat. After 2 years of law school, it was great to be solving problems rather than prolonging them.

FWIW, several of my close friends were in Innocence Clinic (including the one Alexandria referenced) and loved it.


My dad was just asking me if I had heard anything about the Mediation Clinic (he's involved with mediation though the State of Michigan civil rights department, and some other ADR-related groups throughout the state), so I'm glad to hear it's a great clinic! He's always hinted that I should do something ADR-related in my studies, so I guess it's a good thing that it sounds like something I really truly might enjoy (with the added bonus of dad being more likely to help out with my tuition :mrgreen: )

Most of the other clinics don't really seem like they would be personally fulfilling to me, but I can see the benefit in mediation experience - It's nice to know that disputes can be resolved without lawsuits and courtrooms.

Alexandria
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Re: Michigan 2012

Postby Alexandria » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:59 pm

summertimechi wrote:are there on-campus jobs available for those students who aren't awarded work-study funds?


Yeah, like being a research assistant to a prof or working in the library.




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