Bad GPA

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mpasi
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Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:25 am

Without going into details, let's just say my GPA is shitty, but my practice LSAT scores are fairly solid, as is my W/E (read: internships). I'm already looking to get into MA/MS programs next fall that would only enhance my knowledge the area of law I want to go into (international law), and yes, I do know that graduate GPAs don't count when applying to law schools. My problem now is I know EXACTLY what I want to do, but have a shitty GPA to overcome. I don't know where to begin, other than to continue doing internships that help and earning a grad degree that's directly related. I heard that after 5 years, your UGPA doesn't have as much weight, but I could be mistaken. Any help/advice you guys can give would be greatly appreciated.





A caveat...please don't ask what my GPA is. It's a fair question, but I just don't like sharing it. Maybe at the end of next semester.

09042014
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:32 am

mpasi wrote:Without going into details, let's just say my GPA is shitty, but my practice LSAT scores are fairly solid, as is my W/E (read: internships). I'm already looking to get into MA/MS programs next fall that would only enhance my knowledge the area of law I want to go into (international law), and yes, I do know that graduate GPAs don't count when applying to law schools. My problem now is I know EXACTLY what I want to do, but have a shitty GPA to overcome. I don't know where to begin, other than to continue doing internships that help and earning a grad degree that's directly related. I heard that after 5 years, your UGPA doesn't have as much weight, but I could be mistaken. Any help/advice you guys can give would be greatly appreciated.





A caveat...please don't ask what my GPA is. It's a fair question, but I just don't like sharing it. Maybe at the end of next semester.


Are you still in undergrad? If so take a bunch of bullshit easy A's for as long as you can before applying to law school. If you are really serious about law school, I'd skip the MA, and stay an extra year upping your GPA. Internships don't really count as W/E. Also international law doesn't really exist.

You really need to tell us your GPA. Under 3 makes the T14 very difficult, but beyond the T14, there really isn't a GPA low enough that a sufficiently high LSAT cannot fix. You really need to aim for a 180.

I have a 2.8, its not that embarrassing.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby Kiersten1985 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:35 am

Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?

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jks289
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby jks289 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:37 am

There isn't much help or advice anyone can give you. If you get an awesome LSAT score (170+) you can overcome pretty low GPAs. I think most schools have a 2.0 or 2.2 requirement (I have heard conflicting things) but as long as you are over that there is a chance. I don't think internships count as real W/E. Sure they are nice on a resume, but I think what law schools mean by W/e is a 40+ hour week, doing substantive work in your field. All you can do is your best on the LSAT, and write a great PS, and GPA addendum. Then see what happens. Good luck.

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jks289
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby jks289 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:39 am

Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


Yes I don't understand this either. "International law" maybe not as much, but transnational law is an important and growing field. I work in bankruptcy and deal with cross-border stuff all the time.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:42 am

Thanks guys. Okay...so I have a 2.3. I'm not asking for admission to Harvard Law, but just somewhere I can study international law or whatever its called at law schools and get on with my life. Also...do you really think the MA wouldn't help at all?

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:44 am

jks289 wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


Yes I don't understand this either. "International law" maybe not as much, but transnational law is an important and growing field. I work in bankruptcy and deal with cross-border stuff all the time.



Is transnational a better way of phrasing it? I want to go into securities law or economic law as they relate to international relations, so I always just get lazy and call it international law.

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Re: Bad GPA

Postby the lantern » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:47 am

You are a URM with a bad GPA.. do well on the LSAT and you'll still do a lot better than most of us. I'm not being snarky or anything, just honest.

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jks289
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby jks289 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:51 am

mpasi wrote:
jks289 wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


Yes I don't understand this either. "International law" maybe not as much, but transnational law is an important and growing field. I work in bankruptcy and deal with cross-border stuff all the time.



Is transnational a better way of phrasing it? I want to go into securities law or economic law as they relate to international relations, so I always just get lazy and call it international law.


I think it is slightly more accurate, and it is the term lawyers in my field use. I think there is pure international law (treaties, border disputes) but transnational law is simply when more than one country is involved. In bankruptcy it is when a European company may have American interests, or a prosecutor in Los Angeles needs to cooperate with Mexican authorities on drug trafficking. I think the crucial element if you intend to do this kind of work is that you speak multiple languages fluently. It matters less what law school classes were offered.

09042014
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:51 am

Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


The UN has one court. Good luck getting a job there.

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/ ... e_the_hype

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NDPhil
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby NDPhil » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:59 am

Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


I agree that it is rather flippant to declare that international law doesn't exist. But there are certainly legitimate questions over what exactly its status is. If we assume that an essential characteristic of law is that it is based upon some fundamental rule of recognition (a la H.L.A. Hart), then a case can be made that there is international law. If we assume that an essential characteristic of law is authority and/or enforcement, then things get a bit hazy with respect to international law. Rules of recognition, authority, and enforcement continue to be big topics in jurisprudence/philosophy of law, and there is plenty of room for debate on how any one or all of these characteristics relate to law.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:03 pm

the lantern wrote:You are a URM with a bad GPA.. do well on the LSAT and you'll still do a lot better than most of us. I'm not being snarky or anything, just honest.



I didn't really take it that way, since I know it's the truth. Not that I'm relying on it. :x I'm intrigued by what you said, though. So let's say I get a 168-175, which is where I've been placing on the practice tests. Would SMU or OU be possible?

jks289 wrote:
I think it is slightly more accurate, and it is the term lawyers in my field use. I think there is pure international law (treaties, border disputes) but transnational law is simply when more than one country is involved. In bankruptcy it is when a European company may have American interests, or a prosecutor in Los Angeles needs to cooperate with Mexican authorities on drug trafficking. I think the crucial element if you intend to do this kind of work is that you speak multiple languages fluently. It matters less what law school classes were offered.



Thanks for the clarification. I won't sound so ignorant now, haha. And what Desert Fox is saying is the first I've ever heard of "int'l law" not existing, though I disagree, obviously.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby Kiersten1985 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


The UN has one court. Good luck getting a job there.

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/ ... e_the_hype


So your argument is that if a certain field of law is particularly difficult to get into, that field of law therefore doesn't exist?

:roll:

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


The UN has one court. Good luck getting a job there.

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/ ... e_the_hype




So, the conclusion I drew from that is that there are a lot of naive kids who don't know what part of "international law" (I'm humoring you here) they want to go into. That makes them no different from the rest of the entering class that say it wants to go into commercial law or criminal law. It's all overly broad, right? I can't really see that as evidence of it not existing, so much as I see it as law students who don't know what they want to do yet.

09042014
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:19 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Also international law doesn't really exist.


So annoying. What's your basis for that again? Have you ever heard of the UN?


The UN has one court. Good luck getting a job there.

http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/ ... e_the_hype


So your argument is that if a certain field of law is particularly difficult to get into, that field of law therefore doesn't exist?

:roll:


No my argument is that its not a field of law. There certainly are cross border law disputes. But they will be a bankruptcy case that crosses borders, or a patient case that crosses borders. But as a specialty it doesn't really exist. Its marketing that law schools use to bring in students to their schools.

The OP wants to get into securities law, which is a field.

09042014
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:21 pm

Sorry for derailing your thread OP.

Are you still in undergrad? If so I'd pad that GPA with as many bullshit courses as you can.

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NayBoer
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby NayBoer » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:22 pm

My advice for everyone who targets a weird subset of law is to find people doing the job you want and check their CVs to see what credentials and experience might help. When possible, contact them for advice. Fair warning, going after exotic and rare specialties is risky. Competition may be fierce, even if it doesn't pay 160k.

Also, with a sub-2.5 GPA and a 168+ you're looking at WUSTL, UIUC, IUB, WL, GMU, maybe GWU. A 165 should get you IUB. NU and GULC are remotely possible with 172+ but quite unlikely.

An alternate strategy is to try to enter this career now at a lower level (with or without a masters). This would let you see the work firsthand, gain more experience in the field (building a better application package) and give you a leg up when it comes time to find a job as an attorney in the field. Or you might change your mind entirely about law school.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:24 pm

^I get it now. It's like someone going to college and saying they want to major in pre-med or pre-law? Those are just descriptions, but not actual fields to go into. Is that what you're saying about international law?

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Re: Bad GPA

Postby NayBoer » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:28 pm

Also, being bilingual isn't necessarily very useful in a world where everybody speaks English.

Anna Ivey wrote:When I was a film finance lawyer out in Los Angeles, every single one of our deals involved money from German investors because of a weird quirk in the German tax code. Every once in a blue moon some German would fly in to sign some papers, but despite the fact that I'm half-German, grew up in Germany, and speak German fluently, I never left the borders of L.A. County for a single one of those deals. Fact is, in the age of emails and PDFs and faxes, I never needed to. Each closing also involved contracts with non-US movie distributors covering just about every country on the globe. I'd review the contracts and make sure they were kosher (because they were collateral for the movie loans), I'd look at the faxed signatures (always faxed -- I never met these people), and then I'd slap those puppies in a closing binder (which also never left L.A. County). And here's the kicker: despite my language skills, nobody wanted to conduct business in anything other than English, which they all spoke flawlessly. People still ooh and aah when they hear the words "entertainment law" or "international law," but there you have it. It was a good job, and international film finance can be fun, but glamorous? Jet-setting? Polyglot? Not so much.


Edit - though obviously it may help to be bilingual if you are serving immigrant communities (renters law, crim defense, immigration law, etc.).

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jks289
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby jks289 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:39 pm

NayBoer wrote:Also, being bilingual isn't necessarily very useful in a world where everybody speaks English.

Anna Ivey wrote:When I was a film finance lawyer out in Los Angeles, every single one of our deals involved money from German investors because of a weird quirk in the German tax code. Every once in a blue moon some German would fly in to sign some papers, but despite the fact that I'm half-German, grew up in Germany, and speak German fluently, I never left the borders of L.A. County for a single one of those deals. Fact is, in the age of emails and PDFs and faxes, I never needed to. Each closing also involved contracts with non-US movie distributors covering just about every country on the globe. I'd review the contracts and make sure they were kosher (because they were collateral for the movie loans), I'd look at the faxed signatures (always faxed -- I never met these people), and then I'd slap those puppies in a closing binder (which also never left L.A. County). And here's the kicker: despite my language skills, nobody wanted to conduct business in anything other than English, which they all spoke flawlessly. People still ooh and aah when they hear the words "entertainment law" or "international law," but there you have it. It was a good job, and international film finance can be fun, but glamorous? Jet-setting? Polyglot? Not so much.


Edit - though obviously it may help to be bilingual if you are serving immigrant communities (renters law, crim defense, immigration law, etc.).


False. I speak multiple languages (German being one of them) and I use them almost daily. Any court document that is filed in Germany is in German. If you don't know how to read them you are at the mercy of interpreters, and reviewing things like forensic accounting reports is near impossible. My experience of other European countries is that while many people speak English, simply assuming it is a bad plan. Also, very few firms will send you to foreign offices (and I think lots of people mean practicing law in a foreign country when they say "international law") without some grasp of the language.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:45 pm

NayBoer wrote:Also, being bilingual isn't necessarily very useful in a world where everybody speaks English.

Anna Ivey wrote:When I was a film finance lawyer out in Los Angeles, every single one of our deals involved money from German investors because of a weird quirk in the German tax code. Every once in a blue moon some German would fly in to sign some papers, but despite the fact that I'm half-German, grew up in Germany, and speak German fluently, I never left the borders of L.A. County for a single one of those deals. Fact is, in the age of emails and PDFs and faxes, I never needed to. Each closing also involved contracts with non-US movie distributors covering just about every country on the globe. I'd review the contracts and make sure they were kosher (because they were collateral for the movie loans), I'd look at the faxed signatures (always faxed -- I never met these people), and then I'd slap those puppies in a closing binder (which also never left L.A. County). And here's the kicker: despite my language skills, nobody wanted to conduct business in anything other than English, which they all spoke flawlessly. People still ooh and aah when they hear the words "entertainment law" or "international law," but there you have it. It was a good job, and international film finance can be fun, but glamorous? Jet-setting? Polyglot? Not so much.


Edit - though obviously it may help to be bilingual if you are serving immigrant communities (renters law, crim defense, immigration law, etc.).



You're joking, right? 1) Not even half the world's population speaks English, or enough it to get by using it. Have you not noticed the plight of Mexican immigrants in this country? Most come here only knowing Spanish and enough English to say they can't communicate in anything but Spanish. 2) When you're working in Brussels, Moscow, Madrid, Beirut, or Hong Kong, being multilingual is a killer asset, and not a simple novelty. Not to get all preachy on you, but whenever I've applied for a job or internship that dealt had a global aspect, having knowledge of a second language was critical. I can't imagine law firms with global operations have no use for multilingual employees.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Sorry for derailing your thread OP.

Are you still in undergrad? If so I'd pad that GPA with as many bullshit courses as you can.



It's okay. I am still in undergrad, and I'm doing that with courses next semester, and topping it off with a post-grad study abroad trip to China in June, provided I get my butt in gear on the passport app.

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jks289
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby jks289 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:52 pm

mpasi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Sorry for derailing your thread OP.

Are you still in undergrad? If so I'd pad that GPA with as many bullshit courses as you can.



It's okay. I am still in undergrad, and I'm doing that with courses next semester, and topping it off with a post-grad study abroad trip to China in June, provided I get my butt in gear on the passport app.


If I were you I would add a minor, and do an entire extra year of classes. Get all As, it isn't that hard. Your are in the rare position (around here) of being able to change your undergrad GPA. If it is at all financially viable, this is going to count for so much more than a post-grad trip to China. I know that seems insane, but trust me, this is a numbers game.

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Re: Bad GPA

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:00 pm

mpasi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Sorry for derailing your thread OP.

Are you still in undergrad? If so I'd pad that GPA with as many bullshit courses as you can.



It's okay. I am still in undergrad, and I'm doing that with courses next semester, and topping it off with a post-grad study abroad trip to China in June, provided I get my butt in gear on the passport app.



Can you delay graduation a year and pump up your GPA. Maybe declare a second major and just hang out another year? That is extreme, but other than that you can't get around your GPA.

Study the LSAT as much as you can. Good luck, and have fun in China.

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mpasi
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Re: Bad GPA

Postby mpasi » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:06 pm

^Extra time isn't that great of an option at this point, as I'm 25 and really, really sick of undergrad, and also out of eligibility for aid. The China trip isn't for leisure, I'll be taking two courses there, and possibly a stats class online from a comm college here in the States. I'm basically done with undergrad, aside from taking Algebra next semester and an elective to raise my major GPA at my university. The courses I'm taking in addition to those are related to the aforementioned grad program I'm interested in (I have a "in" with the program at my university), and I'm taking those at a local comm college. My problem is that I got serious about my future a little too late, and now have to mire through the mess I made in years past. It sucks.




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