Top Law Schools

I have a buddy who goes to a school on this list, and he refuses to put it on his facebook. He meticulously updates his facebook with insane detail, except under education it stops at undergrad. His dad is a DUI lawyer, so I guess he's planning on following in his footsteps.

IHaveDietMoxie wrote:

MURPH wrote: The thing is this school had potential just a few years ago. It had a 100% bar passage rate less than a decade ago. BUt the screwy people that run the place decided they would rather fight amongst themselves than maintain a decent school. So they bet everything on the Florida real estate market and uprooted the campus.

That was a really interesting story.
I think a lot of small business is done this way in the south...control the shit out of everything, assuming that it's a zero sum game, etc. It is interesting that it was at first seen as a challenger to UM, and is now in what used to be a nursing home...


ps OP the thread in itself is not particularly derisive, but when you call it "worst-law-schools.com" you're being juvenile and cruel.
I guarantee you some perfectly normal people just assume that the closest law school that is accredited is fine for their purposes because they have ties to the area, are short on money, debt averse, etc.
Yea some don't do their research and its good to have the info on the forums in case they are interested, but don't rub feces in their face, nobody needs that.

UM as in Michigan? If so, lol at whoever thought that a school named 'Ave Maria' could possibly unsettle an institution that's been a T10 since the dawn of rankings time. Chemerinsky himself could not pull that off.

dresden doll wrote:

IHaveDietMoxie wrote:

MURPH wrote: The thing is this school had potential just a few years ago. It had a 100% bar passage rate less than a decade ago. BUt the screwy people that run the place decided they would rather fight amongst themselves than maintain a decent school. So they bet everything on the Florida real estate market and uprooted the campus.

That was a really interesting story.
I think a lot of small business is done this way in the south...control the shit out of everything, assuming that it's a zero sum game, etc. It is interesting that it was at first seen as a challenger to UM, and is now in what used to be a nursing home...


ps OP the thread in itself is not particularly derisive, but when you call it "worst-law-schools.com" you're being juvenile and cruel.
I guarantee you some perfectly normal people just assume that the closest law school that is accredited is fine for their purposes because they have ties to the area, are short on money, debt averse, etc.
Yea some don't do their research and its good to have the info on the forums in case they are interested, but don't rub feces in their face, nobody needs that.

UM as in Michigan? If so, lol at whoever thought that a school named 'Ave Maria' could possibly unsettle an institution that's been a T10 since the dawn of rankings time. Chemerinsky himself could not pull that off.

Jesus could.

dresden doll wrote:

IHaveDietMoxie wrote:

MURPH wrote: The thing is this school had potential just a few years ago. It had a 100% bar passage rate less than a decade ago. BUt the screwy people that run the place decided they would rather fight amongst themselves than maintain a decent school. So they bet everything on the Florida real estate market and uprooted the campus.

That was a really interesting story.
I think a lot of small business is done this way in the south...control the shit out of everything, assuming that it's a zero sum game, etc. It is interesting that it was at first seen as a challenger to UM, and is now in what used to be a nursing home...


ps OP the thread in itself is not particularly derisive, but when you call it "worst-law-schools.com" you're being juvenile and cruel.
I guarantee you some perfectly normal people just assume that the closest law school that is accredited is fine for their purposes because they have ties to the area, are short on money, debt averse, etc.
Yea some don't do their research and its good to have the info on the forums in case they are interested, but don't rub feces in their face, nobody needs that.

UM as in Michigan? If so, lol at whoever thought that a school named 'Ave Maria' could possibly unsettle an institution that's been a T10 since the dawn of rankings time. Chemerinsky himself could not pull that off.

Did you read the article? It was just talking about Bar passage rate. I don't think anybody thinks that Ave Maria was going to unsettle UM.

disagree.

Burger in a can wrote: EMPLOYED AT GRADUATION NOTE: Many schools do not report this data, so this category starts with the lowest reported percentage
1. Florida International University- 21.4%
2. New England School of Law- 30.5%
3. University of Memphis- 36%
4. CUNY-Queens College- 36.7%
5. Valparaiso University- 40.7%

For schools that don't report at-graduation employment rates to U.S. News, you can use the following formula that U.S. News uses to calculate their at-graduation employment rates for purposes of the overall rankings:
EG = (E9 * .996) - .294
Theodore P. Seto, Understanding the U.S. News Law School Rankings, 60 SMU L. Rev. 493, 500 (2007).

By using this formula, we can very likely predict the maximum number that the non-reporting school has for at-graduation employment rate. I say "very likely predict" because there is a slim chance that the school simply doesn't track the information. But any rational school would track the information and report if it helps them or not report if it hurts.

Applying the formula above, we see the following schools probably have at-graduation employment rates below the following numbers:
1. Western State University - 28.3%
2. University of the District of Columbia - 37.2%
3. Appalachian - 36.4%
4. Thomas M. Cooley, Ave Maria - 43.6%
5. Touro College - 44.7%

We can't really do a combined list, though, because this second list includes the equilibrium number (the number that if a school reported would neither help nor hurt its overall ranking). But we know with near certainty that these schools have at-graduation employment rates below those numbers; how far below, we do not know.

grouchynihilist wrote:I've known people who have gone to law schools on that list, ended up in the top 1% of their class, and transfer to a tier 1. Making fun of them doesn't make you look good at all.

Yeah? And I know a kid who played minor league baseball. Doesn't mean prospective young ballplayers would be wise to spend tens of thousands of dollars for the chance of someday getting to the big leagues. (Obviously this is not a direct analogy, but the point is the same. Wasting your money on the incredibly slim chance of making it to a T1 is stupid)

grouchynihilist wrote:I've known people who have gone to law schools on that list, ended up in the top 1% of their class, and transfer to a tier 1. Making fun of them doesn't make you look good at all.

[strike]Alright, I guess it's your turn now, grouchynihilist. Explain to be how they are being made fun of in this thread.[/strike]

Nevermind- just checked out your post history and noticed you were a troll, so I actually couldn't care less.

ggocat wrote: For schools that don't report at-graduation employment rates to U.S. News, you can use the following formula that U.S. News uses to calculate their at-graduation employment rates for purposes of the overall rankings:

Nice! I copied and pasted you into the original post.

Philo38 wrote:My girlfriend's uncle is going through Nashville School of Law night classes and the whole family COULD NOT be prouder of him. To them it is an amazing law school.

I know a girl from my school that goes there. She received a 139 on the LSAT. I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to earn a law degree with that kind of LSAT.

Wow people need to stop whining. I think its awesome Burger that you compiled all this info into one place. It so true that schools can mislead and it just takes some researching to figure it out. At least you have made that research a little more convenient. And I also fail to see the act of compiling statistics on schools as "making fun of" these schools.

Dobranski eventually drew up a list of thirty-six luminaries of Catholic legal education (he called them his “dream team”) and began contacting them with a personal invitation to join the faculty. Before long, inquiries from prospective students were pouring in. In the fall of 2000, when Ave Maria School of Law opened the doors to its new campus—an 85,000-square-foot Frank Lloyd Wright–style building in northeast Ann Arbor—it had seventy-five students, almost double the initial projections. Their bona fides, namely LSAT scores, were on par with students at many top-tier law schools. Suddenly, Monaghan—a college dropout who had made his fortune delivering pizzas to dorm rooms—was in the inner circle of what was shaping up to be an elite academic club.

but yeah it isn't warranted for me to call it a "challenger"

IHaveDietMoxie wrote:

Dobranski eventually drew up a list of thirty-six luminaries of Catholic legal education (he called them his “dream team”) and began contacting them with a personal invitation to join the faculty. Before long, inquiries from prospective students were pouring in. In the fall of 2000, when Ave Maria School of Law opened the doors to its new campus—an 85,000-square-foot Frank Lloyd Wright–style building in northeast Ann Arbor—it had seventy-five students, almost double the initial projections. Their bona fides, namely LSAT scores, were on par with students at many top-tier law schools. Suddenly, Monaghan—a college dropout who had made his fortune delivering pizzas to dorm rooms—was in the inner circle of what was shaping up to be an elite academic club.

but yeah it isn't warranted for me to call it a "challenger"

I thought you originally meant this:

Even as the other campuses descended into turmoil, however, Ave Maria School of Law continued to flourish. The first class, which graduated in 2003, had a 93 percent bar passage rate, the highest of any school in the state. (This prompted the National Review to quip that the University of Michigan—known for churning out powerhouse litigators and Supreme Court justices—had the “second-best law school in Ann Arbor.”)

deadpanic wrote:

Philo38 wrote:My girlfriend's uncle is going through Nashville School of Law night classes and the whole family COULD NOT be prouder of him. To them it is an amazing law school.

I know a girl from my school that goes there. She received a 139 on the LSAT. I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to earn a law degree with that kind of LSAT.

ITT 0Ls and 1Ls pass judgment on things they know very little about. Brilliant.

Op: You're a douche. You have the nerve to take shots at me for spreading negativity and then you post this garbage (copy and paste of the bottom end of law school stats available in 459352342363452 places on the internet). Don't insult your fellow TLSers, you meant to take a shot at some low ranked schools and make yourself feel better. Be true to yourself brah; its a better way to live.

What many of the future elite law grads ITT seem to miss is that making fun of any of these schools and pointing out their low standing only becomes practical if you: a) attend a T14; b) attend a T30, hit the top 33% of your class and also do well at OCI; c) attend a T1 and are in the top 14% of the class and don't strike out at OCI; d) attend a T2 and are in the top 4.5% of the class and don't strike out at OCI. If you aren't in any of these categories, you're just as fucking TTT as the kid who proudly occupies the median spot at Touro. Why? Because at that point, it doesn't matter. You're job prospects essentially start to look the same. Sure, you might start at 5k more working at WEMED instead of a plaintiff's side shit-shop, but basically, you're in the same rat race, competing for the same jobs. And guess what, at that point, employers care much less about where your LS appears on the USNWR and how high your GPA was and much more on how good you're likely to be.

So to the elites ITT who do not find themselves in one of the aforementioned exempted classes above, feel free to poke fun. You've earned it. If you don't, then sit down, shut up and realize that you're degree is just as fucking TTT as that schmuck with a 139 LSAT from New England School of FLAW.

mpasi wrote:^The only thing wrong with this thread is that you didn't take into account that some students at those schools might be on TLS.

I love how self-righteous TLS gets when people post data about crappy schools, while every other thread contains references to the USNWR ranking of law schools. If it's mean to post stats about bad schools, then it is mean to post about rankings. No one seems to get mad when Ave Maria is referred to as a Tier 4 while someone is talking about the t14, but once someone puts down that 25th-75th, everyone is in an uproar. Get over it guys

Notor wrote:

mpasi wrote:^The only thing wrong with this thread is that you didn't take into account that some students at those schools might be on TLS.

I love how self-righteous TLS gets when people post data about crappy schools, while every other thread contains references to the USNWR ranking of law schools. If it's mean to post stats about bad schools, then it is mean to post about rankings. No one seems to get mad when Ave Maria is referred to as a Tier 4 while someone is talking about the t14, but once someone puts down that 25th-75th, everyone is in an uproar. Get over it guys

Posting statistics to prove a point is different than saying... 'Look at these shitty ass schools.. what garbage... Tehe.. Look!!'

Okay, here's my take on the matter. I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that even someone with a 145 (my UG's LSAT average, I might add) would not spend over $100,000 without doing basic research. People enter law school with vastly different goals. I have friends uptown who would be quite unhappy with anything less than a market paying job, while my roommate and I would probably be happier pouring coffee than working in biglaw. Someone going to work for a family practice probably does not need a fancy JD. I submit that none of us have the right to judge-- even those going to YLS, though I doubt Yale kids would see the need to enter an affray like this one.

I have no problem with pointing out misleading information provided by schools, and to the extent that OP has tried to do that, I applaud him. However, pointing and jeering is not credited, and this remains the case wherever the person in question is going to school.

Ken has said on numerous occasions that he is not happy with the elitist tone taken by many on these boards. Factual information is always welcome, but jabs at students attending lower ranking schools are not. I was made a mod in part because Ken thought I would have a strong opinion on this point, and I do. I don't know the circumstances attendant upon those who chose to attend the lowest ranked schools in the US, therefore I will not pass judgment on them for making that choice.

reasonable_man wrote:Don't insult your fellow TLSers, you meant to take a shot at some low ranked schools and make yourself feel better. Be true to yourself brah; its a better way to live.

Don't insult your fellow TLSers. You have no idea why the OP made the thread. Reading his original post, it certainly didn't seem like his goal was to "make himself feel better".

It's just like the dude that is completely ripped out of his mind needing to wear a cut-off. we get it, you are smarter than everyone at these schools, so why waste time on them at all? being on TLS, i find it hard to believe anyone would be posting this info without the intent of getting a laugh

reasonable_man wrote:ITT 0Ls and 1Ls pass judgment on things they know very little about. Brilliant.

Op: You're a douche. You have the nerve to take shots at me for spreading negativity and then you post this garbage (copy and paste of the bottom end of law school stats available in 459352342363452 places on the internet). Don't insult your fellow TLSers, you meant to take a shot at some low ranked schools and make yourself feel better. Be true to yourself brah; its a better way to live.

What many of the future elite law grads ITT seem to miss is that making fun of any of these schools and pointing out their low standing only becomes practical if you: a) attend a T14; b) attend a T30, hit the top 33% of your class and also do well at OCI; c) attend a T1 and are in the top 14% of the class and don't strike out at OCI; d) attend a T2 and are in the top 4.5% of the class and don't strike out at OCI. If you aren't in any of these categories, you're just as fucking TTT as the kid who proudly occupies the median spot at Touro. Why? Because at that point, it doesn't matter. You're job prospects essentially start to look the same. Sure, you might start at 5k more working at WEMED instead of a plaintiff's side shit-shop, but basically, you're in the same rat race, competing for the same jobs. And guess what, at that point, employers care much less about where your LS appears on the USNWR and how high your GPA was and much more on how good you're likely to be.

So to the elites ITT who do not find themselves in one of the aforementioned exempted classes above, feel free to poke fun. You've earned it. If you don't, then sit down, shut up and realize that you're degree is just as fucking TTT as that schmuck with a 139 LSAT from New England School of FLAW.

<3.

Jumbo wrote:

reasonable_man wrote:Don't insult your fellow TLSers, you meant to take a shot at some low ranked schools and make yourself feel better. Be true to yourself brah; its a better way to live.

Don't insult your fellow TLSers. You have no idea why the OP made the thread. Reading his original post, it certainly didn't seem like his goal was to "make himself feel better".

He edited his op; son.

Burger in a can wrote:

MURPH wrote:No list would be complete without this cluster fuck.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... he_sky.php

Nice. I love that both Ave Maria and Detroit Mercy are hot contenders in stats above.

Jesus christ, Michigan is awful. Thank god for U of M...

The most interesting thing about this thread? The ironic self-righteous fervor of those condemning the OP for what they perceive to be his self-righteous fervor. Maybe he meant to poke fun at the schools, maybe he really was just attempting to collect data that, seemingly, could only actually be useful to someone "accidentally" considering one of those schools. I won't say one way or the other. While it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to compile a list of schools at the bottom, I do have friends from undergrad who exist in the mental mold of "see data, compile it" who would create a similar list, without malice, only because, well, a list can and, therefore, should be made.

That said, if he was poking fun at them, whatever. It's no different than the kids at Stanford teasing the kids down at Cal, or the kids at Cal teasing the UC San Diego, or UCLA, kids, etc. etc. etc. right on down the list to Cal State Long Beach (or where ever the hell the bottom is). It's all in fun, a part of the experience, and unless people get really mean about it, I don't really see the problem having a little fun at each other's expense.

I'm willing to bet most of the people at those schools know how bad they are. I'd go to a local bottom feeder with decent career prospects in my immediate area if it meant going to school free, or if I had a dad whose practice I was going to work at regardless, or if I were simply taking advantage of an employers education benefit. Two minutes of internet research (literally, it could have been less) delivered this website to me. I really doubt that many of the students think their school compares to Harvard. If my own experience at a crappy state college is any indication, they probably sit around when they go out for drinks making the same kinds of jokes on display here.

That all said, I might have a gambling problem. I don't need incredible odds to be willing to bet.

OP- Get a life, homey

My stepfather went to a school on that list. He owns his own building and practice in South Florida on A1A and makes more money some months then you will make in a decade of work.

I scored in the 160s on the LSAT (hit the 170s in practice) and am going to one of the schools on that list as a part-time student on a scholarship. Some of the students in my class aren't very impressive, granted. But the top 1% of my school are brighter than the bottom the bottom 1% of a T14 probably. Point is, to summarily dismiss a whole school and its students as weak due to LSAT and GPA is myopic.

Anyways, I am sure that ultimately while your degree may be more prestigious, my bank account will be. You hang your degree on the wall and drop the name of your school at cocktail parties, cool guy. I'll forget you existed till i look at the surveys of where my income ranks in relation to the graduates of T14 schools.......and smile. Regardless, you probably need to gain some humility and perspective instead of drawing your identity or worth from the school you attended. I am sure you are a HUGE tool anyways who struggled through the social aspect of college and are as repulsive to females as you are offensive to many on this board.