LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

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GhostDynasty
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby GhostDynasty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:24 pm

lawduder wrote:My mistake, because they go to a different school they must have harder tests to earn the same grade; gotcha.


I didn't say theirs would be harder, I just said that the difficulty wouldn't be the same.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:31 pm

lawduder wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:If you can maintain a 4.0 GPA for four years, they're not going to hold it against you that you never got a 4.3.

example 1 - no A+ grades
C
C
A
A
B-
gpa: 2.93

example 2 - A+ grades
C
C
A+
A+
B-
gpa: 3.07

this discrepancy also widens as you add accumulate more grades


This discrepancy only is wide enough to matter if you're making a shitload of A+s for it to skew things that much, so the person who is really going to be affected by this is going to be someone close to a 4.0 anyway. It's not going to affect someone with a shitload of Bs and Cs at all because they're highly unlikely to be getting that many A+s.

If you consider that the typical UG degree requires 120 credit-hours, the typical class is 3 credit-hours, and someone who has a 3.0 GPA... Each A turned into an A+ increases their GPA by 0.0075 points. If they had 2 As turn into A+s, their GPA would jump to an amazing 3.02 (3.015 rounded up). If they had 3 As turn into A+s their GPA would jump to an astonishing ... 3.02 (3.0225 rounded down). If they had 4 As turn into A+s their GPA would jump to an incredible 3.03.

In order to get it up to 3.10 (an entire .1 increase, wow!) you'd need thirteen As that turned into A+s. The person who has mostly Bs and ends up with a 3.0 is not the kind of person you'd expect to get A+s instead of As every time they got an A.

This is also true for any full 0.1 increase. To get from a 3.9 to a 4.0, or a 4.0 to a 4.1 you'd need thirteen classes where you'd have gotten an A+ instead of an A. The only kind of person you can say would be getting that many A+s is someone who's already almost always getting As... and they're already likely ending up with a 3.9-4.0 GPA as it is.

I find it very difficult to imagine a realistic scenario where your school offering A+s would make that much of a difference in your cycle. Either 1) you're killing your UG classes enough that you're already going to have a really awesome GPA either way or 2) you're not the kind of person who'd be able to consistently get A+s if offered and your GPA wouldn't be affected even if your school offered A+ grades.

BarCliff
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby BarCliff » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:28 pm

LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

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Jumbo
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby Jumbo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:30 pm

BarCliff wrote:LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

Multivariable calculus? What idiot school do you go to?

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GhostDynasty
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby GhostDynasty » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:32 pm

Jumbo wrote:
BarCliff wrote:LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

Multivariable calculus? What idiot school do you go to?


Umm, some tests are difficult enough that everyone would fail them, even at MIT, and I can make that statement assuming the test was still fair.

digitalepiphany
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby digitalepiphany » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:34 pm

Realistically, though, B+s will help out a B student. Just as A+s help out A students.
So, you need to change your scenario above to account for B+s instead of A+s.

I think this is really a moot topic as A-s and B-s help to bring down the gpa as well.

A student who has an equal number of -s and +s will have the same gps as someone who didn't earn +s and -s.

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maudlinstreet
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby maudlinstreet » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:40 pm

Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.

:lol: ok this is so stupid I don't even know what to say. I hope you're being sarcastic and I missed the joke, but higher level math classes aren't about "formulas" and plugging in numbers to get that "one right answer." they're about putting together highly abstract concepts into coherent proofs. maybe in your physics 101 class all you had to do was plug in numbers, but us big boys in the higher level science and math courses had to apply our brains and solve complex theoretical problems. I majored in both math and english and my english classes were a complete joke next to my math classes, and I went to a reputable school. there's a reason why the huge splitters (2.9/176 or whatever) are nearly all engineers/math/physics/etc.

I have to admit this is the first time I've ever seen ANYONE say that political science is harder than math/physics, so I'm kind of dumbfounded. I mean, I'm getting trolled, right? there's no way this is serious

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Jumbo
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby Jumbo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:42 pm

GhostDynasty wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
BarCliff wrote:LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

Multivariable calculus? What idiot school do you go to?


Umm, some tests are difficult enough that everyone would fail them, even at MIT, and I can make that statement assuming the test was still fair.

There's actually quite a bit of grade inflation at MIT. There's no way in hell that an introductory level class would have a 36/100 as the high score on a test.

digitalepiphany
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby digitalepiphany » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:43 pm

From my experience (BA Russian Studies, BS Biology), it's not so much that one is harder than the other, it's that they each require a different "type" of studying. I don't know how else to exlain it than that. I do, however, think that the type of study required for liberal arts will be more conducive to law school. But, I'm a lowly 0L, so I guess I'll find out with time.

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daesonesb
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby daesonesb » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:44 pm

As someone who has gotten a fair share of A+ grades, as well as an average of one B a term, I will admit: I frickin love A+'s. I can take an easy history of economics course in conjunction with a harder mathematical economics course, get an A+ in the history one, a B in the math oriented one, and round it off with a couple A-'s, and come out with a 3.7 LSDAS GPA for the term. A+ grades have boosted me considerably.

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maudlinstreet
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby maudlinstreet » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:48 pm

also - when I'm talking about "higher level math," I'm NOT talking about something like cal 3. I'm talking about real / complex analysis, partial differential equations, topology, etc.

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daesonesb
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby daesonesb » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:00 pm

Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.



Bahahahahhahaha that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Yes, 100 level physics classes might take less work than 400 level Poli Sci, but there is a reason that Math departments at most schools have drop out rates of more than 50%.

There is also a reason why math and science classes at an upper level have so many pre-requisites, whereas 300 and 400 level poli sci classes only have a few. Math builds on a ridiculous amount of concepts, and if people weren't weeded out at the 100-200 level, the majority of them would almost certainly fail at the 300 level.

Poli sci studying amounts to marathon reading sessions. As someone who has done a chunk of lower level math, as well as a good deal of upper level econ and history courses, I'd say that studying math is much more intellectually tasking. But who knows, maybe you are just really good at hard science and math. You'd be an outlier if this is the case though...

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:05 pm

digitalepiphany wrote:Realistically, though, B+s will help out a B student. Just as A+s help out A students.
So, you need to change your scenario above to account for B+s instead of A+s.

I think this is really a moot topic as A-s and B-s help to bring down the gpa as well.

A student who has an equal number of -s and +s will have the same gps as someone who didn't earn +s and -s.


This makes no sense. All schools give B+s and A-s so they're already factored in to any given scenario. Anyone who got B+s and A-s before would still get B+s and A-s presumably even if the school started offering A+s. The only way anyone's grade would change at all is that some people who got As might have gotten A+s instead.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:21 pm

daesonesb wrote:As someone who has gotten a fair share of A+ grades, as well as an average of one B a term, I will admit: I frickin love A+'s. I can take an easy history of economics course in conjunction with a harder mathematical economics course, get an A+ in the history one, a B in the math oriented one, and round it off with a couple A-'s, and come out with a 3.7 LSDAS GPA for the term. A+ grades have boosted me considerably.


Taking this scenario... let's assume you're getting one A+ per semester in a 3-credit class. That means that over four years you're getting 8 A+s (one spring and one fall for four years) for a total of 24 credit hours. With a 3.7 GPA the total number of "grade points" you'd accumulate would be ( 3.7 * 120 = 444 ); if we subtract out the + from the A+ for those 24 credit hours, your total accumulated "grade points" would be ( 444 - ( .3 * 24 ) = 436.8 ). To determine your new GPA, you just divide by the number of hours taken again and get ( 436.8 / 120 = 3.64 ). Thus if your school didn't offer A+s and you only got As in those 8 classes, you'd have a 3.64 GPA.

So wow. By having all those A+s you boosted your GPA an incredible six-hundredths of a point! That's such an enormous advantage, it's really going to help you get into H, Y, and S.

Except not really. With either the 3.64 or the 3.7, you're still below median at much of the T14. The good news is that it puts you slightly above median at Cornell (3.67) instead of slightly below it. At almost every other school in the country, though... it's such a small difference in overall GPA it's not going to really matter.

And Cornell's still not taking you unless you get an awesome LSAT score. If you do end up with a 3.70 because of your 8 magic A+s, but you get a 164 on the LSAT, the dude who can't get A+s and has a 3.64 but got a 170 LSAT score is still probably getting into Cornell ahead of you.

I really think this is largely a non-issue. For most people it doesn't make a huge difference, the realistic change in GPA value is going to be less than a tenth of a point. In your situation you could still end up raising your GPA by that much by getting a B+ instead of a B in the classes you keep getting Bs in.

BarCliff
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby BarCliff » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:32 pm

Jumbo wrote:
BarCliff wrote:LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

Multivariable calculus? What idiot school do you go to?


Georgia Tech, very far from an "idiot school."

And Calc III here is much, much more than multivariable calculus. Diff Eq was a breeze compared to it
Last edited by BarCliff on Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alpine
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby Alpine » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:40 pm

Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.


If only it were as simple as just memorizing formulas like you claim. It appears as though you have a lot of experience with hard science courses considering your entry level Physics course. So please continue providing us with your speculations and incorrect assumptions. Liberal arts papers merely consist of being able to articulate a pointless thesis that has an infinite number of correct answers, that is a luxury. Not very challenging in my opinion.

I am majoring in a hard science and a liberal art, they aren't even comparable in difficulty. Liberal arts don't win.

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MC Southstar
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby MC Southstar » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:44 pm

Alpine wrote:
Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.


If only it were as simple as just memorizing formulas like you claim. It appears as though you have a lot of experience with hard science courses considering your entry level Physics course. So please continue providing us with your speculations and incorrect assumptions. Liberal arts papers merely consist of being able to articulate a pointless thesis that has an infinite number of correct answers, that is a luxury. Not very challenging in my opinion.

I am majoring in a hard science and a liberal art, they aren't even comparable in difficulty. Liberal arts don't win.


This.

Computer science is a bit different in that it has a near infinite number of answers for any one problem, but they must be perfectly logical and yet are still open to subjective grading. Sucks.

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govern
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby govern » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:47 pm

Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.


Holy God this just made my day.

I hope you poured more research into your papers than into this post. Where the hell did you come up with the idea that all science/math related courses have exams where there is only one correct answer. Have you ever taken a real math or science course before?

And honestly, "I had took"? Where the hell are you getting your liberal arts degree from anyway?

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Alpine
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby Alpine » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:49 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
Alpine wrote:
Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.


If only it were as simple as just memorizing formulas like you claim. It appears as though you have a lot of experience with hard science courses considering your entry level Physics course. So please continue providing us with your speculations and incorrect assumptions. Liberal arts papers merely consist of being able to articulate a pointless thesis that has an infinite number of correct answers, that is a luxury. Not very challenging in my opinion.

I am majoring in a hard science and a liberal art, they aren't even comparable in difficulty. Liberal arts don't win.


This.

Computer science is a bit different in that it has a near infinite number of answers for any one problem, but they must be perfectly logical and yet are still open to subjective grading. Sucks.


Yep. Gotta love being graded on the elegance and efficiency of solutions during a timed exam. I thought there was already enough pressure. I hate CS tests.

nycparalegal
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby nycparalegal » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:50 pm

"there is always inequity in life. Some men are killed in a war and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country, and some men are stationed in the Antarctic and some are stationed in San Francisco. It's very hard in the military or personal life to assure complete equality. Life is unfair" - JFK

Life is unfair..deal with it.

pattymac
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby pattymac » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:00 pm

It's all relative. Canadian Universities use a grade scale (mine uses a 13 point system, I guess it's the only one who does). An 80 is an A- while a 92> is an A+ (or a 12.5). It might seem like it would be incrredibly easy to maintain an A- average but a 50 is a pass. The average is supposed to be around a 69-71% (C+ to B-) which my school follows pretty closely. As well, unless you're writing a multiple choice exam you aren't getting 100%. In my stats class, five people have 100% because they assign these labs that they give you the answers and a 100% grade on comprised of 50% of the mark. The Prof has pretty much said he is making the final impossible so that we all drop a letter grade on it and it averages out. Nice for the guys like myself who have an A- in the class but thats the breaks. I know people in med school and law school who never came close to a single A+ in University. A good buddy of mine said that you're pretty much docked 10% in Canada and that if you were going under the American system that you would add that 10% on. Who knows though.

Aside from that, my problem with LSDAS calculated GPA is that they count your retakes. I retook a class because I accidentally missed the drop date and have a nice D- on my transcript. I ended up with an A- in the class. If they let you retake the freaking LSAT and encourage the schools to look at your higher grade, should the same principle not apply to retakes? I would argue that my A- is far more indicative of my abilities than my D-.

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jackassjim
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby jackassjim » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 pm

lawduder wrote:this discrepancy also widens as you add accumulate more grades


You realize that this doesn't really make sense, right?

example 1 - no A+ grades
C C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C C
A A A A A A A A A
A A A A A A A A A
B- B- B- B- B- B- B- B-
GPA IS STILL: 2.93

example 2 - A+ grades
C C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C C
A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+
A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+ A+
B- B- B- B- B- B- B- B-
GPA IS STILL : 3.07

Really, unless you're talking about the really high end of the curve (i.e. those few students who get all As or all A+s), the difference between GPAs at both types of schools is really negligible.

For those students at the top of the curve, it doesn't make a difference either, because they cross the 50th and 75th percentiles at pretty much all the schools anyway.

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Jumbo
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby Jumbo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:39 pm

BarCliff wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
BarCliff wrote:LOL the highest grade in the class on one of my Calc III tests was a 36/100. At the end of the semester, the curve brought the class average to a 2.5.

All math classes are not created equally

Multivariable calculus? What idiot school do you go to?


Georgia Tech, very far from an "idiot school."

And Calc III here is much, much more than multivariable calculus. Diff Eq was a breeze compared to it

61% of applicants admitted? Seems likes an idiot haven to me!


























Just kidding... But I'm surprised that one of the better schools in the nation would allow a 2.5 scale in an introductory level class. Seems pretty illogical to me.

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dextermorgan
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby dextermorgan » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:42 pm

Not this again.

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klk
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Re: LSDAS gpa seems unfair..

Postby klk » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 pm

govern wrote:
Trifles wrote:Science/math major difficulty is overhyped. I mean, ffs, the questions on their tests only have one correct answer! As a liberal arts student, I have not had this luxury. Just memorize your formulas or whatever and stfu. Studying for the physics exams I had took waaaay less time then researching for the papers I had to write for poli sci classes.


Holy God this just made my day.

I hope you poured more research into your papers than into this post. Where the hell did you come up with the idea that all science/math related courses have exams where there is only one correct answer. Have you ever taken a real math or science course before?

And honestly, "I had took"? Where the hell are you getting your liberal arts degree from anyway?


Just out of curiosity, how else would you suggest phrasing this? Since it's referring to the past tense of takes time... took time? Not I had took... read the post before you criticize them, mkay? Perhaps a more valid critique would be that he uses then instead of than, but even then...




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