Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

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reasonable_man
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:55 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:We should be congratulating Western State for gaining full ABA approval? Are you fucking serious?

If you stuck 35 unemployed lawyers in a McDonald's for free lunch and called them a faculty, Got a few Westlaw/Lexis accounts, took out the fri-elator and a few other cooking devices and rammed some law-books in there, you'd be looking at the first ABA approved McDonald's school of law.

Please.


Why do you have to take out the fri-elator and other cooking devices? Just to make room for the law books?


Yeah... unless you think there is room in the basement?

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Danteshek » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:57 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Western State is the best option for some students (not everyone can get into Harvard, or Chapman for that matter). Wiping the school off the map isn't going to help those students.


Why not? You're better off not going to law school then spending that much money and time for a sub 1/3rd chance of passing the bar and extremely limited employment prospects. I know not everybody can get into a top law school and I have no problem with solid tier 3 or tier 4 schools. That doesn't make it okay to take large sums of money in order to sell students an education that likely won't even allow them to legally practice in the state, let alone get the sort of jobs you probably dangled in front of them while recruiting them.

I don't have a problem with low ranked schools. I've even sort of defended Hofstra in this thread, though I do think Hofstra is a big rip off and wouldn't advise anyone to go there for sticker. What I have a problem with is a school selling a worthless credential. A J.D. without bar passage is probably worth about the cost of the paper it's printed on, the exception being if you go to a top top school and go directly into business or legislative work and never bother taking the bar .* It isn't worth what Western State is charging for it.


I think there is value in having "opportunity schools," where admissions are very lax, but where the school fails out a large portion of the class.

The best rise to the top and hopefully pass the bar. This is the policy at Whittier, and is probably what Western State will do as well.

This model allows people the opportunity to go to law school who otherwise would not be able to.

Southwestern used to have this policy until about 15 years ago. SW cut its student body by about 40% (SW used to have almost as many students as Harvard) after it decided to stop using the "opportunity" model and become more selective.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:58 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:I don't care what you guys say, I'm still going to Western State. Did you guys know that U.S. News & World Report rated Western State University #1 in its law school diversity index. Suck on that.


They have Zero diversity if you ask me. While its true that they have idiots, mouth-breathers, half-witts, old-losers, pretend-gunners, jack-asses and retards (a diverse group of society's worst, I'll admit), the common classification of "enemployed-loser" they will all soon share defeats the diversity rating.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:09 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:I don't care what you guys say, I'm still going to Western State. Did you guys know that U.S. News & World Report rated Western State University #1 in its law school diversity index. Suck on that.


They have Zero diversity if you ask me. While its true that they have idiots, mouth-breathers, half-witts, old-losers, pretend-gunners, jack-asses and retards (a diverse group of society's worst, I'll admit), the common classification of "enemployed-loser" they will all soon share defeats the diversity rating.


Way too harsh. The school is bad for its practices but the students are probably normal people who just aren't well suited to the practice of law, at least with the education being offered there. Why all this hostility towards the students, who haven't done anything but enroll at a law school. Heck their LSAT scores are close to the mean, and if you (somewhat reasonably) assume that the average LSAT taker is above average in intelligence/education to the average citizen, well, then this is still an above average crowd.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:11 pm

Danteshek wrote:I think there is value in having "opportunity schools," where admissions are very lax, but where the school fails out a large portion of the class.

The best rise to the top and hopefully pass the bar. This is the policy at Whittier, and is probably what Western State will do as well.

This model allows people the opportunity to go to law school who otherwise would not be able to.

Southwestern used to have this policy until about 15 years ago. SW cut its student body by about 40% (SW used to have almost as many students as Harvard) after it decided to stop using the "opportunity" model and become more selective.


There might be value to this. If these schools were cheap. If these schools made their policies clear. As it is the schools take huge amounts of money from people and then send them packing with a COMPLETELY worthless single year of law school under their belts.

What 'opportunity' is there in going to a year of law school and being failed out?

If you want opportunity law schools for those who can't get in any other way then I say that (at least in California) the unaccredited schools provide that opportunity. They, at least, are cheap.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:13 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:I don't care what you guys say, I'm still going to Western State. Did you guys know that U.S. News & World Report rated Western State University #1 in its law school diversity index. Suck on that.


They have Zero diversity if you ask me. While its true that they have idiots, mouth-breathers, half-witts, old-losers, pretend-gunners, jack-asses and retards (a diverse group of society's worst, I'll admit), the common classification of "enemployed-loser" they will all soon share defeats the diversity rating.


Way too harsh. The school is bad for its practices but the students are probably normal people who just aren't well suited to the practice of law, at least with the education being offered there. Why all this hostility towards the students, who haven't done anything but enroll at a law school. Heck their LSAT scores are close to the mean, and if you (somewhat reasonably) assume that the average LSAT taker is above average in intelligence/education to the average citizen, well, then this is still an above average crowd.


It was a joke. I seldom blame the students that attend these types of schools. Its the schools that are the problem in my opinion.

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Cleareyes
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:18 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
It was a joke. I seldom blame the students that attend these types of schools. Its the schools that are the problem in my opinion.


Okay. I just feel like too often people are willing to take shots at the students when the institutions are the problem. Not everybody has the necessary skills etc... to excel at law school or the practice of law. When I look at my civil procedure notes and my memo I wonder whether I posses them! But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a lawyer even if you don't possess those skills, and if you don't have those skills you may have other amazing skills, even more important skills.

Anyway, I kind of wish there were a law school that was also a functional fast food restaurant. You could make yourself fries at 2 A.M. while studying.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:20 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
It was a joke. I seldom blame the students that attend these types of schools. Its the schools that are the problem in my opinion.


Okay. I just feel like too often people are willing to take shots at the students when the institutions are the problem. Not everybody has the necessary skills etc... to excel at law school or the practice of law. When I look at my civil procedure notes and my memo I wonder whether I posses them! But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a lawyer even if you don't possess those skills, and if you don't have those skills you may have other amazing skills, even more important skills.

Anyway, I kind of wish there were a law school that was also a functional fast food restaurant. You could make yourself fries at 2 A.M. while studying.


Maybe I'm on to something then. I agree. Its not the students, its the schools.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Danteshek » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:22 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:I think there is value in having "opportunity schools," where admissions are very lax, but where the school fails out a large portion of the class.

The best rise to the top and hopefully pass the bar. This is the policy at Whittier, and is probably what Western State will do as well.

This model allows people the opportunity to go to law school who otherwise would not be able to.

Southwestern used to have this policy until about 15 years ago. SW cut its student body by about 40% (SW used to have almost as many students as Harvard) after it decided to stop using the "opportunity" model and become more selective.


There might be value to this. If these schools were cheap. If these schools made their policies clear. As it is the schools take huge amounts of money from people and then send them packing with a COMPLETELY worthless single year of law school under their belts.

What 'opportunity' is there in going to a year of law school and being failed out?

If you want opportunity law schools for those who can't get in any other way then I say that (at least in California) the unaccredited schools provide that opportunity. They, at least, are cheap.



The unaccredited schools in CA for the most part don't have the curriculum that will give the students a chance. Whittier provides an infinitely better first year experience than Glendale College of Law or West LA College of Law (two of the better CA accredited schools).

I don't feel sorry for the people who failed out. At least they know they don't cut it. That's more than can be said for the people who can't get into law school in the first place.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:38 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
It was a joke. I seldom blame the students that attend these types of schools. Its the schools that are the problem in my opinion.


Okay. I just feel like too often people are willing to take shots at the students when the institutions are the problem. Not everybody has the necessary skills etc... to excel at law school or the practice of law. When I look at my civil procedure notes and my memo I wonder whether I posses them! But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a lawyer even if you don't possess those skills, and if you don't have those skills you may have other amazing skills, even more important skills.

Anyway, I kind of wish there were a law school that was also a functional fast food restaurant. You could make yourself fries at 2 A.M. while studying.


Maybe I'm on to something then. I agree. Its not the students, its the schools.

I think paying 43K a year in tuition for NYLS with the idea that you're going to make their "average starting salary of 160K" boarders on unconscionability...

Someone ought to take that suit...

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:45 pm

Danteshek wrote:The unaccredited schools in CA for the most part don't have the curriculum that will give the students a chance. Whittier provides an infinitely better first year experience than Glendale College of Law or West LA College of Law (two of the better CA accredited schools).

I don't feel sorry for the people who failed out. At least they know they don't cut it. That's more than can be said for the people who can't get into law school in the first place.


You've attended all three then?

I don't see why the people who failed out know they don't cut it any more than the people who can't get in in the first place. Even now there are lots of people who want to go to law school but can't get into one. They know they don't cut it because they can't get admitted to any law school. It doesn't follow that just because someone failed out of Whittier they would have failed out of other schools. Maybe they had some bad instructors, fell ill, whatever. Setting the line of people who should get to test their mettle in law school at 'people who the lowest ranked ABA approved law school will admit' is completely arbitrary. Unless you think anyone who wants to attend law school should be able to. I might agree to that if law schools were honest about the cost/benefit analysis and prospects after attending bottom ranked schools. But they aren't. Thomas Cooley sends out fliers telling people that they can get into law school. They don't say 'You can get into law school (and there's a good chance you'll be flunked out.)' These practices may not rise to the level of outright fraud, but neither are they honorable.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Danteshek » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:56 pm

Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:57 pm

Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.

I don't think so.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:01 pm

Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


ha

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:04 pm

Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


How?

The schools don't tell them. They could probably find out through research, but few people want to do research into how crappy the law school that just offered them admission is. You might argue they could find out, but know seems unreasonable.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Pearalegal » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:06 pm

SteelReserve wrote:
I did my Pieper review for the NY bar at Hofstra. I've never encountered a bigger group of mommy-daddy spolied, spikey-haired, orange-skinned idiots in my entire life. Kids would show up to class infrequently, miss entire portions of lectures, fail to hand in essays for marking... It was insane. I'm not shocked at all that their bar pass rate is the worst of ALL THE SCHOOLS IN NY STATE.


I have never seen a more unprofessional school in my life! I visited a girl at Hofstra (during my undergrad days), so I decided to go into the law school with her to check it out. I said I was interested in applying.

I look into a classroom and I would say at least 50% of the guys in the class were wearing baseball caps, some at angles other than straight forward.

I was mortified and never looked back.


...you're being sarcastic, right?

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:07 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
I did my Pieper review for the NY bar at Hofstra. I've never encountered a bigger group of mommy-daddy spolied, spikey-haired, orange-skinned idiots in my entire life. Kids would show up to class infrequently, miss entire portions of lectures, fail to hand in essays for marking... It was insane. I'm not shocked at all that their bar pass rate is the worst of ALL THE SCHOOLS IN NY STATE.


I have never seen a more unprofessional school in my life! I visited a girl at Hofstra (during my undergrad days), so I decided to go into the law school with her to check it out. I said I was interested in applying.

I look into a classroom and I would say at least 50% of the guys in the class were wearing baseball caps, some at angles other than straight forward.

I was mortified and never looked back.


...you're being sarcastic, right?

Round 1: Tool v Douche?

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:19 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


How?

The schools don't tell them. They could probably find out through research, but few people want to do research into how crappy the law school that just offered them admission is. You might argue they could find out, but know seems unreasonable.

Even if they could hypothetically find out about the quality of the school, law school is an investment and reliable salary and employment statistics are seldom offered.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Pearalegal » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:20 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


How?

The schools don't tell them. They could probably find out through research, but few people want to do research into how crappy the law school that just offered them admission is. You might argue they could find out, but know seems unreasonable.


It is their responsibility to know these things. If they have failed to research properly, thats 100% on them.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Danteshek » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:21 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


How?

The schools don't tell them. They could probably find out through research, but few people want to do research into how crappy the law school that just offered them admission is. You might argue they could find out, but know seems unreasonable.


You really seem to have a really low opinion of prospective law students at these schools...!

I understand that going to school with people who all think they are destined to be on the Supreme Court or become Secretary of State can have a serious impact on one's respect for the lowly masses...

But come on... get real. For the most part, people do their research when deciding whether to go to law school. They read books, talk to lawyers in their community...

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:40 pm

Danteshek wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Students entering lower ranked law schools know exactly what they are getting into.


How?

The schools don't tell them. They could probably find out through research, but few people want to do research into how crappy the law school that just offered them admission is. You might argue they could find out, but know seems unreasonable.


You really seem to have a really low opinion of prospective law students at these schools...!

I understand that going to school with people who all think they are destined to be on the Supreme Court or become Secretary of State can have a serious impact on one's respect for the lowly masses...

But come on... get real. For the most part, people do their research when deciding whether to go to law school. They read books, talk to lawyers in their community...

This is patently untrue. A majority of the students at my school did little to no research concerning career prospects, quality of faculty, the stability of the legal job market, or a vast number of other pertinent considerations. The fact of the matter is that this information is often difficult if not impossible to obtain because it is shrouded by the propaganda machine that is the ABA and LSAC, who are responsible for churning out such nonsense as the "flexibility" of a juris doctor or how tier 4 schools have a 95% employment rate 9 months after graduation with an average starting salary of 80k/yr...

Many students are naively fooled into attending a law school with little real world experience, thinking they will easily saddle the 150K dollars in debt they accrue with the "solid" starting salaries that entry level attorneys make...

As for talking to lawyers in "their community," what say you of those who move away to go to law school? Many students do I am sure, such as those who attend St. Johns in NYC thinking they'll make a gainful salary after graduating...

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby SteelReserve » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:47 pm

This is patently untrue. A majority of the students at my school did little to no research concerning career prospects, quality of faculty, the stability of the legal job market, or a vast number of other pertinent considerations. The fact of the matter is that this information is often difficult if not impossible to obtain because it is shrouded by the propaganda machine that is the ABA and LSAC, who are responsible for churning out such nonsense as the "flexibility" of a juris doctor or how tier 4 schools have a 95% employment rate 9 months after graduation with an average starting salary of 80k/yr...


It's as if you took the words right out of my mouth. I have vivid memories of 1L, about people saying "hey i mean even if i dont get good grades, i'll still get at least 80k a year starting...that's more than most people make when they're 50 years old!"

For a lot of people, those brochures are the only solid source of information they can obtain on post-graduation salaries...

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby Cleareyes » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:51 pm

Danteshek wrote:
I understand that going to school with people who all think they are destined to be on the Supreme Court or become Secretary of State can have a serious impact on one's respect for the lowly masses...

But come on... get real.


One of the reasons I didn't list the actual school I am attending until ordered to by a mod was this sort of condescending attitude. I just got through saying that these are people of above average education/intelligence. My point is not that they're stupid but rather that people tend not to look for information that would disappoint and upset them, in general.

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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:04 pm

Danteshek wrote:I understand that going to school with people who all think they are destined to be on the Supreme Court or become Secretary of State can have a serious impact on one's respect for the lowly masses...

But come on... get real. For the most part, people do their research when deciding whether to go to law school. They read books, talk to lawyers in their community...


Cleareyes has a valid point here. It's not like people going to top law schools are the only ones who are stereotypically (and sometimes falsely) assumed to be arrogant about their post-graduation chances. People going to Hofstra are not thinking they're all going to be Supreme Court clerks, but they probably are going there thinking, "Wow, they advertise their median salary for graduates going to BigLaw is $160K!" They trust that statistic without understanding that it's only applicable to those who can get BigLaw offers, a number that wasn't high for the school to begin with and is surely much lower ITE.

How badly Hofstra grads are being hurt by this economy isn't factored into USNWR rankings or the info Hofstra puts out, yet. By the time that info's out there, the people it would matter to are already enrolled and attending. So, even if they are doing research, what little research is out there is so misleading it might not occur to them they need to dig deeper, until it's too late.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Congrats to Hofstra on the lowest bar pass rate in NY for 09

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:12 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Danteshek wrote:I understand that going to school with people who all think they are destined to be on the Supreme Court or become Secretary of State can have a serious impact on one's respect for the lowly masses...

But come on... get real. For the most part, people do their research when deciding whether to go to law school. They read books, talk to lawyers in their community...


Cleareyes has a valid point here. It's not like people going to top law schools are the only ones who are stereotypically (and sometimes falsely) assumed to be arrogant about their post-graduation chances. People going to Hofstra are not thinking they're all going to be Supreme Court clerks, but they probably are going there thinking, "Wow, they advertise their median salary for graduates going to BigLaw is $160K!" They trust that statistic without understanding that it's only applicable to those who can get BigLaw offers, a number that wasn't high for the school to begin with and is surely much lower ITE.

How badly Hofstra grads are being hurt by this economy isn't factored into USNWR rankings or the info Hofstra puts out, yet. By the time that info's out there, the people it would matter to are already enrolled and attending. So, even if they are doing research, what little research is out there is so misleading it might not occur to them they need to dig deeper, until it's too late.


Moreover, this shit is big business.. They realse a 165 stat now, while they placed about 2 kids in such jobs during that reporting period. Believe me, they will figure out a way to spin ITE the right way. This is the same school that asked the lower 3rd of the class to not take the bar exam until february, because that administation of the exam does not factor into the schools statistics. Its also the school that CANCELLED its night program when USNWR required them to disclose those figures as part of its stats.




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