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 Post subject: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:37 pm 
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OK here is my criminal record:

Charged as a 17 year old H.S student with distributing a class d substance (marijuana) in a school zone, possession of an illegal firearm, possession of marijuana. Plead guilty to possession of marijuana, the other charges were dropped.

As a 20 year old, charged with assault and battery on a police officer, given a "continuance without a finding" (similar to nolo contendere, not the same as a guilty plea).

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:41 pm 
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I think you would definitely enhance the diversity at Yale.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Call a law school that you aren't going to apply to and ask them what they think.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:50 pm 
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yeah this is pretty bad, more importantly, are you going to be able to pass the bar association examination?


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:54 pm 
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I would write a PS titled "at least i didn't eat somebody"

In all seriousness I am sure that you truly regret what you did, and if anything I would probably feature my PS around it somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:57 pm 
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I don't know what your chances are of getting in to school unless you write a great addendum and do great on everything else. That said, I do know that there is a practicing attorney in the state of florida who is convicted of second degree murder. So, anythings possible....


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:01 pm 
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This sucks, and I really don't know how badly it will hurt your chances ... I don't think any of us do, contact the school. But what really sucks about it is that it's going to need to be directly addressed in your application and you DO NOT want it to define you. I would probably avoid using it for my PS, do a 180 there ... maybe as an addendum and DS assuming you have something worthwhile to say about the whole ordeal other than "Oops!"


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:07 pm 
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My biggest question is, how old are you now?

If these things happened a decade ago, I would focus on how the experiences changed your life and set you on the right path.

If they happened last year, you have a much bigger obstacle.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:15 pm 
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rocross1 wrote:
I don't know what your chances are of getting in to school unless you write a great addendum and do great on everything else. That said, I do know that there is a practicing attorney in the state of florida who is convicted of second degree murder. So, anythings possible....


Wide range of possible circumstances there makes that pretty easy to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:19 pm 
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guns, drugs, and assault on a cop. i dont know man. good luck. let us know


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:20 pm 
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man... and i've been worrying about my MIP alcohol and 3rd degree theft of a canteloupe...


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:24 pm 
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95% of the advice given in this thread is absolutely useless.

The only correct response in your case is the following:

Contact an attorney in the state in which you intend to one day practice that specializes in attorney ethics. Work with him to determine whether you have a chance of being admitted to practice in that state. Also contact the state agency that licenses attorneys (not the bar association), and try to discuss these issues with them.

I also recomend that you obtain all records of your past criminal offenses and the certified dispositions. This will make it easier for the attorney to work with you. Moreover, expect that this process will cost you some money, but realize that its better to spend some money up front and determine whether you can be admitted as opposed to dropping 150k at some TTT, only to find out 3-years later that you're not going to be able to get licensed because you were a border line drug lord at 17.

No one on TLS can adequately help you with this. 0Ls and first year law students are not equipped to answer this type of question. I'm a licensed attorney and I wouldn't try to answer this, because its not my area of practice. You need a specialist in the state in which you hope to one day practice to answer this question correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:37 pm 
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reasonable_man wrote:
95% of the advice given in this thread is absolutely useless.

The only correct response in your case is the following:

Contact an attorney in the state in which you intend to one day practice that specializes in attorney ethics. Work with him to determine whether you have a chance of being admitted to practice in that state. Also contact the state agency that licenses attorneys (not the bar association), and try to discuss these issues with them.

I also recomend that you obtain all records of your past criminal offenses and the certified dispositions. This will make it easier for the attorney to work with you. Moreover, expect that this process will cost you some money, but realize that its better to spend some money up front and determine whether you can be admitted as opposed to dropping 150k at some TTT, only to find out 3-years later that you're not going to be able to get licensed because you were a border line drug lord at 17.

No one on TLS can adequately help you with this. 0Ls and first year law students are not equipped to answer this type of question. I'm a licensed attorney and I wouldn't try to answer this, because its not my area of practice. You need a specialist in the state in which you hope to one day practice to answer this question correctly.


Agreed. I called a criminal attorney in WA to figure out whether I should disclose for the UW application, considering my juvenile record was ordered to be destroyed by a judge. He gave some good advice which has led me to have a better strategy about disclosing (whether or not a school asks for expunged records or not determines it for me).

Obviously your case is much more serious, and is gonna take some serious thought. I think it is a bigger concern on whether you'd get admitted to the bar/hired on at a decent firm. Talking to a lawyer is the least to do. Talking to the state bar where you want to practice might be good too.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Thanks, everyone for the good advice, and for the funny comments like "you would increase the diversity at Yale"! I sure would, huh!

Does anyone think it matters that I don't actually intend on becoming a practicing attorney, if I can help it. I really intend on going into academia, whether legal or otherwise.

If anyone is interested, here is my addendum.

BTW I'm 23 and a half now!



As I mentioned in my personal statement, when I was in my early teens, I was homeless. I left my mother’s home because it was a severely dysfunctional and abusive environment. I lived on the rooftop of an apartment building. While I often found work cleaning people’s cars and houses in the neighborhood or running errands, when I couldn’t I resorted to stealing food to eat and clothing to wear. I also stole some construction supplies that I used to build a small lean-to to sleep under. I know that these actions were wrong, but I feel that I did them out of necessity. One day I stole some food from a shopping center, where a security officer saw me. I ran into a subway station and jumped onto the back of a moving train to escape. I was caught by a police officer at the next stop. I spent a summer youth detention facility because my mother was the only person I was allowed to call, and she refused to pay my bail, which I believe was $50 or $100.
As a 17 year old, I was robbed for a necklace I was wearing, at the front door of my high school. I called the police and gave them the details about my assailant. I did not know this person, but I saw him greeting a classmate of mine, who was heavily into gang and drug-dealing activity. I also called my friend, who came to the school to meet me and offer his support.
Of course, I was not arrested, but later was summoned to court and charged with selling marijuana and possession of a firearm without a license, due to evidence the police found near the school, viz. a pistol and several small bags of marijuana hidden under a fallen tree. These items were the belongings of my friend, who was at the time also involved in gang activity. He had hidden them there when he saw the police at the front door of the school. But since the officers knew that I had been in the area where the items were found, they assumed those items were mine.
The charges were dropped because the amount of marijuana was very small, and the pistol was not, as the ballistics specialist in the police department quickly found, a real firearm. But the officers still thought the items found were mine.
The classmate who I had seen greeting the person who robbed me threatened my life when I returned to school, so I was forced to leave the school in fear of being killed by him or his gang, who were known for numerous murders and violence. Luckily, I could avoid him.
But my “friend” was a different case. He knew where I lived. He put me under duress by threatening my life and the safety of my family. I thus took responsibility for possessing the marijuana that was his.
When I was a freshman in college, my girlfriend called me and claimed she had been violently assaulted by a police officer. When I came to pick her up, the officer was standing in close proximity to her. I asked him if he had touched her. He told me to leave the area. I persisted in asking him again, a bad decision on my part. In response, he threw me to the ground and beat me. While I was on the ground, I spat on the officer’s face. I was put under arrest and was charged with assault and battery on a police officer. The charges were continued without a finding.
I have never smoked marijuana, or used any illegal drugs in my life, nor even smoked a single cigarette. But this explanation does not amount to an excuse. I accept responsibility for my actions, which include placing myself in a situation where I was associated with a gang member, and confronting a police officer. Despite living in the inner city, much better and more careful choices were still available to me. I have learned from these experiences, and have since gone on to live an extremely careful life.
Because my high school education was constantly interrupted and ultimately negated, I had to work much harder than I otherwise would have. To gain employment and perform a job that required significant knowledge of general biology and immunology I had to spend long hours educating myself at the public library. And to complete my college education with excellence in half the normal time, two years, while writing two separate honors theses, I had to study constantly, not only in the subjects I was taking, but also in those that I needed to catch up in. I have gone on to succeed in graduate school in philosophy at (XY Ivy University) and in a class at (T6 Ivy) Law School where my classmates have formal legal training that I lack. I think that my mistakes have thus given me a work ethic that is much stronger that it otherwise would be.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Tifoso wrote:
Thanks, everyone for the good advice, and for the funny comments like "you would increase the diversity at Yale"! I sure would, huh!

Does anyone think it matters that I don't actually intend on becoming a practicing attorney, if I can help it. I really intend on going into academia, whether legal or otherwise.

If anyone is interested, here is my addendum.

BTW I'm 23 and a half now!



As I mentioned in my personal statement, when I was in my early teens, I was homeless. I left my mother’s home because it was a severely dysfunctional and abusive environment. I lived on the rooftop of an apartment building. While I often found work cleaning people’s cars and houses in the neighborhood or running errands, when I couldn’t I resorted to stealing food to eat and clothing to wear. I also stole some construction supplies that I used to build a small lean-to to sleep under. I know that these actions were wrong, but I feel that I did them out of necessity. One day I stole some food from a shopping center, where a security officer saw me. I ran into a subway station and jumped onto the back of a moving train to escape. I was caught by a police officer at the next stop. I spent a summer youth detention facility because my mother was the only person I was allowed to call, and she refused to pay my bail, which I believe was $50 or $100.
As a 17 year old, I was robbed for a necklace I was wearing, at the front door of my high school. I called the police and gave them the details about my assailant. I did not know this person, but I saw him greeting a classmate of mine, who was heavily into gang and drug-dealing activity. I also called my friend, who came to the school to meet me and offer his support.
Of course, I was not arrested, but later was summoned to court and charged with selling marijuana and possession of a firearm without a license, due to evidence the police found near the school, viz. a pistol and several small bags of marijuana hidden under a fallen tree. These items were the belongings of my friend, who was at the time also involved in gang activity. He had hidden them there when he saw the police at the front door of the school. But since the officers knew that I had been in the area where the items were found, they assumed those items were mine.
The charges were dropped because the amount of marijuana was very small, and the pistol was not, as the ballistics specialist in the police department quickly found, a real firearm. But the officers still thought the items found were mine.
The classmate who I had seen greeting the person who robbed me threatened my life when I returned to school, so I was forced to leave the school in fear of being killed by him or his gang, who were known for numerous murders and violence. Luckily, I could avoid him.
But my “friend” was a different case. He knew where I lived. He put me under duress by threatening my life and the safety of my family. I thus took responsibility for possessing the marijuana that was his.
When I was a freshman in college, my girlfriend called me and claimed she had been violently assaulted by a police officer. When I came to pick her up, the officer was standing in close proximity to her. I asked him if he had touched her. He told me to leave the area. I persisted in asking him again, a bad decision on my part. In response, he threw me to the ground and beat me. While I was on the ground, I spat on the officer’s face. I was put under arrest and was charged with assault and battery on a police officer. The charges were continued without a finding.
I have never smoked marijuana, or used any illegal drugs in my life, nor even smoked a single cigarette. But this explanation does not amount to an excuse. I accept responsibility for my actions, which include placing myself in a situation where I was associated with a gang member, and confronting a police officer. Despite living in the inner city, much better and more careful choices were still available to me. I have learned from these experiences, and have since gone on to live an extremely careful life.
Because my high school education was constantly interrupted and ultimately negated, I had to work much harder than I otherwise would have. To gain employment and perform a job that required significant knowledge of general biology and immunology I had to spend long hours educating myself at the public library. And to complete my college education with excellence in half the normal time, two years, while writing two separate honors theses, I had to study constantly, not only in the subjects I was taking, but also in those that I needed to catch up in. I have gone on to succeed in graduate school in philosophy at (XY Ivy University) and in a class at (T6 Ivy) Law School where my classmates have formal legal training that I lack. I think that my mistakes have thus given me a work ethic that is much stronger that it otherwise would be.



Becoming an academic is extremely difficult. Moreover, you still need to get licensed. Read my post above and please listen to my advice. I'd hate to see you make a huge mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Thanks, again, ReasonableMan, for the good advice. I will definitely follow it - I'm in the process of getting all the records and I do have an attorney. Also, I'm aware that being an academic is hard, but I'm partially on the way there since I'm in grad school in philosophy at a strong program. And I didn't realize the one would need to be licensed to teach (I assume you mean, to teach law). I'm not set on teaching in a law school, though and law is for me sort of a supplement to my PhD since I am interested in issues with legal ramifications and applications. I would assume that teaching in an academic department like philosophy or political science does not require a license as an attorney, even if one has a J.D, and especially if one has a PhD in the given discipline as well.

As I said, I appreciate the advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:13 pm 
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Your addendum is good. I hope you explain further the challenges you had to overcome and things you witnessed during your life in your PS. This is a tough situation, but obviously you've had a difficult life and have turned things around. I wish you all the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Thanks URM, I appreciate it.

P.S the celtics are taking it this year!


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:34 pm 
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I second everything reasonable_man has said. Not being licensed limits your career opportunities severely.

I would also add that this addendum is arguably more important than your PS or any other part of your application save for your raw numbers. As it stands now, there are several grammatical errors and it runs on far too long. This should be a very concise document in which you briefly state the circumstances of the crimes, and then explain how you have learned from this and are ready to move on.

If you really want to hit on the circumstances of your past, the personal statement is the venue to do so--not the addendum.

Personally, I wish you the best of luck. You seem to have made an incredible turnaround.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:38 pm 
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Tifoso wrote:
Thanks URM, I appreciate it.

P.S the celtics are taking it this year!



KG runs up and down the floor on one leg, and I think Wallace ate Big Baby, or he's hiding in Wallace's gapped teeth.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:40 pm 
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AngryAvocado wrote:
I second everything reasonable_man has said. Not being licensed limits your career opportunities severely.

I would also add that this addendum is arguably more important than your PS or any other part of your application save for your raw numbers. As it stands now, there are several grammatical errors and it runs on far too long. This should be a very concise document in which you briefly state the circumstances of the crimes, and then explain how you have learned from this and are ready to move on.

If you really want to hit on the circumstances of your past, the personal statement is the venue to do so--not the addendum.

Personally, I wish you the best of luck. You seem to have made an incredible turnaround.


+1 You seem like a good guy. I wish you all the best. Talk to the lawyer first and do this right. Having a JD means nothing without being able to tack Esq onto the end of your name. Not to mention, after 3-years of LS, you will want to take the bar and get licensed, even if you never practice. I came from a rough background myself and of all the things I have done in my life; standing up, raising my right hand and accepting the oath of office of an attorney at law and signing the roll of attorneys will always be one of my proudest moments. You'll want that moment too after you put the work in. I suspect that you may well be able to get licensed, but start the process now.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Thanks, Avocado. I will cut the addendum down and give it the proper line editing. And thanks again ReasonableMan. You are absolutely correct. I'm going to do it the right way.

And URM, Maybe Big Baby is hiding in Rasheed's bald spot, yeah Rasheed's ugly but the celtics look good! See you in the finals. BTW have you seen Ron Artest's latest extra-curricular activity? I guess he's a "model" now! And KG would still be an all-star with two peg legs!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/e ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:54 pm 
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AngryAvocado wrote:
I second everything reasonable_man has said. Not being licensed limits your career opportunities severely.

I would also add that this addendum is arguably more important than your PS or any other part of your application save for your raw numbers. As it stands now, there are several grammatical errors and it runs on far too long. This should be a very concise document in which you briefly state the circumstances of the crimes, and then explain how you have learned from this and are ready to move on.

If you really want to hit on the circumstances of your past, the personal statement is the venue to do so--not the addendum.


I would disagree strongly on this. I don't think it's possible to write a "too long" addendum for really serious C&F concerns. The purpose of the document is significantly different from "drinking citation, yeah, stupid, whatever." Not only do you really have to convince someone who is probably skeptical, you also have something that will be a C&F issue for the bar. If anything, the school may ask for more information if it's too terse. The absolute last thing you want is to come off as trying to speed talk or gloss over it.

Cleaning it up is a different concern, but this is nothing like "lol dorm idiot" that has no facts anyone really cares about.


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:06 pm 
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That sounds right, ScaredBored. I do think this addendum will have to be more detailed than a traffic or MIP alcohol type thing. I was able to cut it down a little bit just now by simply writing better sentences, though. It's about 2 pages double spaced as is. Do people think that is about the right length, or that I should go into more/less detail?


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 Post subject: Re: Stick a fork in me?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:14 pm 
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Fucking Ron.

And as long as KG doesn't lose one of those pegs, we'll see you in the finals.


By the way, I think the length of this addendum is good. There maybe two or three sentences that could be shortened, but for the most part I think it does the job.


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