Why You Should Go To Law School

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prezidentv8
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:27 pm

$.02

AHHHHHHHH THE LEGAL SKY IS FALLING RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!

hamsterhiatus
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby hamsterhiatus » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:34 pm

MTal wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
adamlippes wrote: Don't go to law school outside the T10 if you're paying full freight. If you do, you're exposing yourself to a significant risk of living life just above the poverty line. A juris doctor might "mean" something, but that "meaning" is of little practical significance if you cannot maintain your wellbeing.


just a little bit of a stretch don't ya think? I would hope that if the law career doesn't pan out, one would seek another employment option. Why would you not have other options available if your law career doesnt work out? I would argue that someone relegated to a lifetime of financial ruin b/c they took on debt for graduate school has underlying issues far beyond law school debt.


Dude, you are so clueless it's not even funny. Well whatever. Keep blindly ignoring the advice of everyone who has gone through the process, I'm sure you, as an 0L, know better than they do.


To be fair, he might actually think law students learn useful skills in law school that can be applied in other fields..like um, um...

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:37 pm

MTal wrote:Dude, you are so clueless it's not even funny. Well whatever. Keep blindly ignoring the advice of everyone who has gone through the process, I'm sure you, as an 0L, know better than they do.


Says the poster citing nameless JDU flunkies to support his argument. I do my research as I'm sure all of us do; however, I do know more about my capabilities and motivation than anybody here.

It appears your central thesis breaks down to something along the lines of: If its difficult and/or risky avoid at all cost because ITE we should all do nothing b/c the future is uncertain.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:42 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
It appears your central thesis breaks down to something along the lines of: If its difficult and/or risky avoid at all cost because ITE we should all do nothing b/c the future is uncertain.


Umm,........what about.......get...a....job?

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:43 pm

hamsterhiatus wrote:To be fair, he might actually think law students learn useful skills in law school that can be applied in other fields..like um, um...


I just called my cousin and told her to drop out of med school b/c it is likely she will not finish with a set of skills that can used outside of medicine. Alarmed at this revelation, she called her younger brother and advised him to switch his accounting major because he will not learn to fly an airline.

You play to win the game.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:49 pm

MTal wrote:Umm,........what about.......get...a....job?


I have a liberal arts degree, graduated in 2003 and since then I havent liberated a damn thing in the last six years and cannot draw for shit, but I have started a company and been successful at every single thing I have done. I cannot speak for other applicants, but I do not doubt my abilities.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:01 am

GATORTIM wrote:
MTal wrote:Umm,........what about.......get...a....job?


I have a liberal arts degree, graduated in 2003 and since then I havent liberated a damn thing in the last six years and cannot draw for shit, but I have started a company and been successful at every single thing I have done.


Did you score a 180 on the LSAT? Are you going to Yale? If yes then Godspeed. If not, then that by itself is proof of your fallibility.

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Always Credited
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Always Credited » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:07 am

MTal wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
MTal wrote:Umm,........what about.......get...a....job?


I have a liberal arts degree, graduated in 2003 and since then I havent liberated a damn thing in the last six years and cannot draw for shit, but I have started a company and been successful at every single thing I have done.


Did you score a 180 on the LSAT? Are you going to Yale? If yes then Godspeed. If not, then that by itself is proof of your fallibility.


personal success =/= perfection. come on mtal, you're better than that. :lol:

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:08 am

hamsterhiatus wrote:
Have you guys attended either? I have attended one (for ugrad), and you are guys are really loving the FAKE stereotypes...you guys should really stop spouting weird generalizations. Fact is...


I went to the other (better) one for undergrad.
hamsterhiatus wrote:The vast majority of people in law school are not there for the intellectual rigor (or for some weird love of future interests). Or else they would be in PhD programs.

I realize and lament the truth of your first statement. As for the second, some people actually get both a PhD and a JD. Others get a Masters and a JD. There's also the JSD - a post JD degree for law similar to a PhD. Some people do in fact go to law school to explore their intellectual interests in the discipline, not because they think it's a ticket to a somewhat high-salaried job. unfortunately, such individuals seem few and far between.

As for "FAKE stereotypes" - I was just saying that I think I'd find a smaller percentage of robotic brainwashed assholes at Yale and Berkeley than I might encounter elsewhere. I still think I'm right about that. There are a few other schools that I would imagine enjoy a lower shitbag factor than others, like Michigan, Northwestern and Irvine, but I could be wrong. It's just conjecture, and I won't rely on it to actually decide where I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to weigh a lot of factors, (the main one being whether or not I actually get in). I'll visit the schools I'm interested in, and I'll consider the financial implications of each school, its geographical situation, the strength of its CS department, its openness to interdisciplinary study, and more. A huge factor will be my assessment of the nature of the other students and the faculty, and I'll make those judgments in person. I will also judge the hotness of the student body, as I pointed out in another thread, but this will play a very minor role in my final decision.

For now, I reserve my right to spout speculations and hearsay in silly internet forums like this one, thanks!

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:10 am

Um, we can see the problem - this is a thread about "Why to go to law school." Apparently the JDUers can't even read. They have a whole site to whine and bitch, yet can't even stand to allow one thread that shares info like...

Tonight I was at an event and ran into a lawyer. So I had to ask. Yes, he said. Yep, he actually likes being a lawyer. And he went to a local TTT. I asked why he thinks so many lawyers say no. He said it's a stressful job. But, he said, he really likes it - he likes meeting lots of different people, likes using his brain at a high level, likes solving things, etc. Exactly the sort of things I think I'd like about the profession. Maybe some people aren't people people - they may hate having clients - and some don't like other aspects. But there it was, a regular lawyer, with his own firm (not sure how big, but obviously not big law), who went to a TTT (as did his wife, who doesn't even have to work anymore) - and he is very happy.

Um, JDU-people - it's ok - you can allow a positive truth to exist without you making a counterpoint. This thread is about that. And what I wrote above is 100% true.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:12 am

Always Credited wrote:
personal success =/= perfection. come on mtal, you're better than that. :lol:


He said he's been "successful at every single thing" he's ever done, implying that he's never failed. All of us are successful to varying degrees, but none of us are infallible. It's this common 0L mentality "I weel SucksEEd inna LAW SkOOL becuz I weel WERK HARD!!" is what leaves so many of them disillusioned after 1L.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:17 am

I can't wait to hear the first person in law school say "I'm not here to make friends." When I was listening to the piece on This American Life I kept thinking about how law school is on of the few places aside from reality TV where one might expect to hear the phrase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alno ... r_embedded

Anyway - I will try to choose a law school that is less like a ANTM and more like RuPaul's Drag Race, (to put it in terms of reality TV).

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:18 am

ruleser wrote:Um, we can see the problem - this is a thread about "Why to go to law school." Apparently the JDUers can't even read. They have a whole site to whine and bitch, yet can't even stand to allow one thread that shares info like...

Tonight I was at an event and ran into a lawyer. So I had to ask. Yes, he said. Yep, he actually likes being a lawyer. And he went to a local TTT. I asked why he thinks so many lawyers say no. He said it's a stressful job. But, he said, he really likes it - he likes meeting lots of different people, likes using his brain at a high level, likes solving things, etc. Exactly the sort of things I think I'd like about the profession. Maybe some people aren't people people - they may hate having clients - and some don't like other aspects. But there it was, a regular lawyer, with his own firm (not sure how big, but obviously not big law), who went to a TTT (as did his wife, who doesn't even have to work anymore) - and he is very happy.

Um, JDU-people - it's ok - you can allow a positive truth to exist without you making a counterpoint. This thread is about that. And what I wrote above is 100% true.


There is an entire legal profession outside of BigLaw :).

To be honest, I knew lawyers my entire life and until my sister went to Cornell, I had never heard of BigLaw before or the OCI method of hiring or any of that. I figured most people just went to law school to just... be lawyers.

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Always Credited
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Always Credited » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:21 am

MTal wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
personal success =/= perfection. come on mtal, you're better than that. :lol:


He said he's been "successful at every single thing" he's ever done, implying that he's never failed. All of us are successful to varying degrees, but none of us are infallible. It's this common 0L mentality "I weel SucksEEd inna LAW SkOOL becuz I weel WERK HARD!!" is what leaves so many of them disillusioned after 1L.


I'd argue the nuances, but remember: we know he has failed to some degree because of his previously mentioned business dissolution leaving him some substantial debt. I believe he meant that his ability to overcome a setback is in and of itself a success, and overshadows the failure.

Also, I do agree that its a common 1L error to be overconfident in your level of preparation in relation to that of your classmates. But I do have to ask you MTaL - why are you concerned with the legal profession's current shithouse situation? Since you'd exited the profession - not knockin', just sayin'! - wouldn't it most behoove you now to encourage as many people as possible to pursue law? The pipe dream of TTT success keeps competition out of your current field.

Lastly, I think the blatant and hyperbolic misspellings used to represent utter and complete idiocy really hurts your point. Let your logic and experience speak for itself.

But I'm really dumb as a fucking rock, so definitely don't listen to me.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:24 am

keg411 wrote:
ruleser wrote:Um, we can see the problem - this is a thread about "Why to go to law school." Apparently the JDUers can't even read. They have a whole site to whine and bitch, yet can't even stand to allow one thread that shares info like...

Tonight I was at an event and ran into a lawyer. So I had to ask. Yes, he said. Yep, he actually likes being a lawyer. And he went to a local TTT. I asked why he thinks so many lawyers say no. He said it's a stressful job. But, he said, he really likes it - he likes meeting lots of different people, likes using his brain at a high level, likes solving things, etc. Exactly the sort of things I think I'd like about the profession. Maybe some people aren't people people - they may hate having clients - and some don't like other aspects. But there it was, a regular lawyer, with his own firm (not sure how big, but obviously not big law), who went to a TTT (as did his wife, who doesn't even have to work anymore) - and he is very happy.

Um, JDU-people - it's ok - you can allow a positive truth to exist without you making a counterpoint. This thread is about that. And what I wrote above is 100% true.


There is an entire legal profession outside of BigLaw :).

To be honest, I knew lawyers my entire life and until my sister went to Cornell, I had never heard of BigLaw before or the OCI method of hiring or any of that. I figured most people just went to law school to just... be lawyers.


:D

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:33 am

Well I never said you were dumb, don't know where you got that. And I'm not so heartless as to tell others to go to law school to keep them away from my job, that's ridiculous. There really isn't that much competition where I am working now. On top of that, I get a 2k bonus (no joke) to every person I refer to my company who gets hired, trained, and passes the 7. So I actually encourage them to come work with me (great incentive, I know). And as for the misspellings, I get tired of taking myself seriously all the time, I kind of think it's funny/satirical though admittedly a little juvenile.

ChrisC
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ChrisC » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:41 am

I've met lawyers that hate their career and lawyers that love their career. The BIGLAW (or even midlaw) lawyers tend to hate it, and the vast majority of solos/small firm partners I've met seem to love it. And, gasp, some of these solos even managed to carve out a comfortable income for themselves after a few years.

That's why I intend to go to the best school that I can go to cheaply (most generous with financial aid) with the goal of starting my own practice after a few years when I've got the skill set and the capital. I think a lot of people want BIGLAW because they envision that golden $160k standard and working on 'exciting complex commercial litigation'. When they actually SEE what working 80 hours a week is like, they end up depressed.

Or worse, they take that $150k debt gamble on the promise of a $160k starting salary and find themselves jobless.

Moral of the story? I think law school can be a wise investment if you do some soul searching, determine WHAT you want, and enter with realistic expectations and make responsible financial decisions.

HerseyChris
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby HerseyChris » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:48 am

ChrisC wrote:I've met lawyers that hate their career and lawyers that love their career. The BIGLAW (or even midlaw) lawyers tend to hate it, and the vast majority of solos/small firm partners I've met seem to love it. And, gasp, some of these solos even managed to carve out a comfortable income for themselves after a few years.

That's why I intend to go to the best school that I can go to cheaply (most generous with financial aid) with the goal of starting my own practice after a few years when I've got the skill set and the capital. I think a lot of people want BIGLAW because they envision that golden $160k standard and working on 'exciting complex commercial litigation'. When they actually SEE what working 80 hours a week is like, they end up depressed.

Or worse, they take that $150k debt gamble on the promise of a $160k starting salary and find themselves jobless.

Moral of the story? I think law school can be a wise investment if you do some soul searching, determine WHAT you want, and enter with realistic expectations and make responsible financial decisions.


This is exactly like finance or accounting (and I guess MTal works in finance, so he might have a say in this). Finance people all want to be i-bankers or traders, but the i-bankers get depressed because most of them get used for 80-100 hours week for two years then don't get asked back. Traders make a lot of money, but it's stressful, and they admittedly don't really do anything (both with their time and for business growth in general).
For accountants, the 'gold standard' is a big 4 auditing position, but they work you really hard as well, and there is a lot of travel sometimes. Also, auditors don't make much money to start off with, and as you go up the ladder, you just have more hours and more responsibility with not much more pay (and not much pay to begin with). The main allure of it is that the work experience is invaluable.

It seems like higher paying or more prestigious jobs always require you to work a ton of hours and have unsatisfying work. And they get away with it to because everyone graduates from their school thinking this is the type of job they want.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:55 am

HerseyChris wrote:
ChrisC wrote:I've met lawyers that hate their career and lawyers that love their career. The BIGLAW (or even midlaw) lawyers tend to hate it, and the vast majority of solos/small firm partners I've met seem to love it. And, gasp, some of these solos even managed to carve out a comfortable income for themselves after a few years.

That's why I intend to go to the best school that I can go to cheaply (most generous with financial aid) with the goal of starting my own practice after a few years when I've got the skill set and the capital. I think a lot of people want BIGLAW because they envision that golden $160k standard and working on 'exciting complex commercial litigation'. When they actually SEE what working 80 hours a week is like, they end up depressed.

Or worse, they take that $150k debt gamble on the promise of a $160k starting salary and find themselves jobless.

Moral of the story? I think law school can be a wise investment if you do some soul searching, determine WHAT you want, and enter with realistic expectations and make responsible financial decisions.


This is exactly like finance or accounting (and I guess MTal works in finance, so he might have a say in this). Finance people all want to be i-bankers or traders, but the i-bankers get depressed because most of them get used for 80-100 hours week for two years then don't get asked back. Traders make a lot of money, but it's stressful, and they admittedly don't really do anything (both with their time and for business growth in general).
For accountants, the 'gold standard' is a big 4 auditing position, but they work you really hard as well, and there is a lot of travel sometimes. Also, auditors don't make much money to start off with, and as you go up the ladder, you just have more hours and more responsibility with not much more pay (and not much pay to begin with). The main allure of it is that the work experience is invaluable.

It seems like higher paying or more prestigious jobs always require you to work a ton of hours and have unsatisfying work. And they get away with it to because everyone graduates from their school thinking this is the type of job they want.

Agree with the parallel - I've known Art Andersen/Accenture, KPMGers, etc., they seem to have the same sort of thing going on as you hear from big law employees - they are glad to have the prestigious job, and make the money, but it is a burnout job, and they tend to move on - and I never really saw it as a desireable thing. Of course, I wouldn't want to do accounting work at all, big or small, but they do travel a ton, etc. Big law seems like laws version of the same maybe - though with law, it is possible the work/cases are more interesting in big law, while accounting is just accounting.

HerseyChris
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby HerseyChris » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:11 am

ruleser wrote:
HerseyChris wrote:
ChrisC wrote:I've met lawyers that hate their career and lawyers that love their career. The BIGLAW (or even midlaw) lawyers tend to hate it, and the vast majority of solos/small firm partners I've met seem to love it. And, gasp, some of these solos even managed to carve out a comfortable income for themselves after a few years.

That's why I intend to go to the best school that I can go to cheaply (most generous with financial aid) with the goal of starting my own practice after a few years when I've got the skill set and the capital. I think a lot of people want BIGLAW because they envision that golden $160k standard and working on 'exciting complex commercial litigation'. When they actually SEE what working 80 hours a week is like, they end up depressed.

Or worse, they take that $150k debt gamble on the promise of a $160k starting salary and find themselves jobless.

Moral of the story? I think law school can be a wise investment if you do some soul searching, determine WHAT you want, and enter with realistic expectations and make responsible financial decisions.


This is exactly like finance or accounting (and I guess MTal works in finance, so he might have a say in this). Finance people all want to be i-bankers or traders, but the i-bankers get depressed because most of them get used for 80-100 hours week for two years then don't get asked back. Traders make a lot of money, but it's stressful, and they admittedly don't really do anything (both with their time and for business growth in general).
For accountants, the 'gold standard' is a big 4 auditing position, but they work you really hard as well, and there is a lot of travel sometimes. Also, auditors don't make much money to start off with, and as you go up the ladder, you just have more hours and more responsibility with not much more pay (and not much pay to begin with). The main allure of it is that the work experience is invaluable.

It seems like higher paying or more prestigious jobs always require you to work a ton of hours and have unsatisfying work. And they get away with it to because everyone graduates from their school thinking this is the type of job they want.

Agree with the parallel - I've known Art Andersen/Accenture, KPMGers, etc., they seem to have the same sort of thing going on as you hear from big law employees - they are glad to have the prestigious job, and make the money, but it is a burnout job, and they tend to move on - and I never really saw it as a desireable thing. Of course, I wouldn't want to do accounting work at all, big or small, but they do travel a ton, etc. Big law seems like laws version of the same maybe - though with law, it is possible the work/cases are more interesting in big law, while accounting is just accounting.


I agree with that, which is part of the reason why I'm applying to law school. Cases will at least be interesting. Accounting is just accounting, and the only way it can ever really be interesting is when you move up in a company and start talking to lawyers and thinking big picture instead of a number here or an estimate there.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:42 am

keg411 wrote:
ruleser wrote:Um, we can see the problem - this is a thread about "Why to go to law school." Apparently the JDUers can't even read. They have a whole site to whine and bitch, yet can't even stand to allow one thread that shares info like...

Tonight I was at an event and ran into a lawyer. So I had to ask. Yes, he said. Yep, he actually likes being a lawyer. And he went to a local TTT. I asked why he thinks so many lawyers say no. He said it's a stressful job. But, he said, he really likes it - he likes meeting lots of different people, likes using his brain at a high level, likes solving things, etc. Exactly the sort of things I think I'd like about the profession. Maybe some people aren't people people - they may hate having clients - and some don't like other aspects. But there it was, a regular lawyer, with his own firm (not sure how big, but obviously not big law), who went to a TTT (as did his wife, who doesn't even have to work anymore) - and he is very happy.

Um, JDU-people - it's ok - you can allow a positive truth to exist without you making a counterpoint. This thread is about that. And what I wrote above is 100% true.


There is an entire legal profession outside of BigLaw :).

To be honest, I knew lawyers my entire life and until my sister went to Cornell, I had never heard of BigLaw before or the OCI method of hiring or any of that. I figured most people just went to law school to just... be lawyers.


Yeah. I was the same til I met TLS.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:56 am

I'm going to law school because I cannot remember the last time i dedicated myself to something for this long, and that's just to get the chance to study at a school! I am going to law school because furthering my education will open up doors for me down the road (even if i NEVER practiced law). I am going to law school because to me, it's something I am meant to do. I am going to law school because I will be a kickass Attorney. I am going to law school because you say i shouldn't, and I enjoy proving people wrong. and finally, I am going to law school because I will enjoy sitting in my 2L class knowing Mtal the almighty never made it that far :mrgreen:

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Close Diamond
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Close Diamond » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:59 am

DannyJames wrote:I'm going to law school because I cannot remember the last time i dedicated myself to something for this long, and that's just to get the chance to study at a school! I am going to law school because furthering my education will open up doors for me down the road (even if i NEVER practiced law). I am going to law school because to me, it's something I am meant to do. I am going to law school because I will be a kickass Attorney. I am going to law school because you say i shouldn't, and I enjoy proving people wrong. and finally, I am going to law school because I will enjoy sitting in my 2L class knowing Mtal the almighty never made it that far :mrgreen:


F*ck yeah!

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:09 am

You know, we're getting a wacky skewed perspective from tls. This site didn't even exist until recently. My best friend who just finished her jd at Yale in 07 never heard of tls. This site is full of jackass kids ready to tell you where you can and cannot go based on your 2 numbers as well as how much salary you will make when you graduate from whichever school. Its retarded. I know several people with jds from various schools doing a wide variety of things with their educations.... vp's of fortune 500 companies, independent practices,corporate strategy consultants, biglaw, smalllaw, politics, even a venture capitalist who got rich first by starting his own software company. I hope my real life experience provides a more accurate picture of my future classmates than ive found through Tls (with a few exceptions, of course)

hamsterhiatus
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby hamsterhiatus » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:14 am

j2d3 wrote:You know, we're getting a wacky skewed perspective from tls. This site didn't even exist until recently. My best friend who just finished her jd at Yale in 07 never heard of tls. This site is full of jackass kids ready to tell you where you can and cannot go based on your 2 numbers as well as how much salary you will make when you graduate from whichever school. Its retarded. I know several people with jds from various schools doing a wide variety of things with their educations.... vp's of fortune 500 companies, independent practices,corporate strategy consultants, biglaw, smalllaw, politics, even a venture capitalist who got rich first by starting his own software company. I hope my real life experience provides a more accurate picture of my future classmates than ive found through Tls (with a few exceptions, of course)


Not that the venture capitalist who started his own software company needed the JD to do so...And I doubt the corporate strategy consultants did either. Just because they have JDs doesn't mean they used them to get where they are. There are a fair number of JDs who got rich in business without using their JDs but were "innovative" enough like all your Yalie classmates were apparently.




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