Why You Should Go To Law School

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BeastCoastHype
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby BeastCoastHype » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:03 pm

MTal wrote:“What is good? All that heightens the feeling of billing in a lawyer, the will to bill, billing itself. What is bad? All that is born of clients. What is happiness? The feeling that billables are growing, that billable targets will be overcome.” – Nietzsche


What are you doing with your life?

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Borhas
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Borhas » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:07 pm

MTal wrote:“What is good? All that heightens the feeling of billing in a lawyer, the will to bill, billing itself. What is bad? All that is born of clients. What is happiness? The feeling that billables are growing, that billable targets will be overcome.” – Nietzsche


so in other words, they're retarded

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Matthies
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:07 pm

BeastCoastHype wrote:
MTal wrote:“What is good? All that heightens the feeling of billing in a lawyer, the will to bill, billing itself. What is bad? All that is born of clients. What is happiness? The feeling that billables are growing, that billable targets will be overcome.” – Nietzsche


What are you doing with your life?


Mtal should be a motivational speaker one of those “Get happy with life, you can do anything you want if you work hard enough!” or a pre-law consular. :P

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Borhas
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Borhas » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:40 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:Every practicing attorney I talked to like what they do and strongly encourage me to go to law school...


You're either lying or your sample of practicing attorneys is totally unrepresentative of what most attorneys think about their jobs.

http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf


btw thanks for posting that article; it was excellent

bahama
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby bahama » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:04 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
adamlippes wrote: I doubt many law students share that view about business school...

An old roommate of mine is at Wharton now. She says it's like a cocktail circuit, and no one is stressed out. I know that's not true even of HYS law students.

Freaking out over class standing sucks a lot, and I never come on TLS to complain. I should probably just go to brunch and eat something massively unhealthy. I think it's more inner demons than job security, at least in my case.


I think a lot of the difference in attitude is because business school students tend to be the type of folks who view the cup as half full while law school students tend to be the type who view it as half empty. This is not necessarily a bad thing since in general business people are supposed to see opportunities and lawyers are supposed to see risks.

Also, most top b-school people have solid work experience and were making pretty good money before school, so their worse case position is to go back to doing something similar to what they were doing before school. Most law students don't have that option.

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observationalist
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby observationalist » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:28 pm

Borhas wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:Every practicing attorney I talked to like what they do and strongly encourage me to go to law school...


You're either lying or your sample of practicing attorneys is totally unrepresentative of what most attorneys think about their jobs.

http://www.vallexfund.com/download/Bein ... Member.pdf


btw thanks for posting that article; it was excellent


Agreed. That gets assigned here for Professional Responsibility and the non-credit Ethics course for 1Ls (presumably because it's from our law review). And for anyone interested in more discussion on life satisfaction, see here for a short article with a bunch of links to what my prof calls "happiness literature." : http://www.rff.org/rff/documents/rff-dp-08-39.pdf

The co-author of this piece also handed out a different article to us at the end of one semester about the need for lawyers to find the right work-life balance in our careers to ensure we don't burn ourselves out. I really see a large part of the unhappiness (even in law school) as being people who are too driven by external indicators to know when to quit. 2,000 hour billables for a few years isn't horrible, but it certainly can be tough for those with families, hobbies, or a fondness for sleep.

I will reiterate: I love law school and the decision to return back to school was right for me, and for many of my friends. If everyone chose to sign up for the right reasons (other than vague hopes of unpromised riches or high social stature) the profession as a whole might be better off. Schools can certainly be doing more to provide a realistic look at the job market and what it takes from each individual to land on their feet.

stateofbeasley
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby stateofbeasley » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:15 pm

I read through the first few pages of this thread, and here's my perspective:

Some people here seem pretty level headed and realistic about debt, but other people seem to dismiss debt as if it's no big problem. That's a big mistake. Incurring $150,000 in debt for a T2/3 or even a T1 with shaky job prospects is not prudent. Debt doesn't seem pressing when you don't have to pay it, but trust me, I have far too many coworkers who are going to pay $1000-$1200/month for the next 25-30 years. It does hit you hard when you have lots of other expenses to pay.

I would think that people would take debt more seriously given what happened to the economy over the past 2 years. The Subprime mortgage disaster resulted in part because people borrowed more than they could reasonably expect to be able to pay back.

I would NEVER make a blanket statement that people should not go to law school. Despite my dislike of what the legal profession has become, it does play a valuable role in society and there is most certainly a place for lawyers and judges.

I hope people are smart about making the decision to go to law school. IMO, top schools, in-state schools, or private schools w' substantial tuition breaks are worth it. Six figures for a non-elite school is a crazy gamble. I went to a state school and graduated with only a modest amount of debt, and I have much more freedom to do what I want compared to people who have 2-3 times my debt.

I honestly wish everyone here the best. Times are hard and every additional person who finds success means that the economy will get closer to recovery.

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Matthies
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Matthies » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:17 pm

Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:19 pm

--ImageRemoved--

stateofbeasley
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby stateofbeasley » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:26 pm

Matthies wrote:Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:


Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.

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Matthies
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Matthies » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:11 am

stateofbeasley wrote:
Matthies wrote:Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:


Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.


Well I think, you Obs and several others do as well, and do a good job at it while remaining nuetral and postive. Things is that we have to remember its OUR prospective, so while we trie to give our advice based on what we have experienced, everyone’s mileage will vary. Atleast that's how I try to see it when I give advice. I think we all know that, so we stay away from the OMGZ T4 your not even going to get a job at McDonalds crap that some folks, without any real perspective or experience like to tell people they have never met, about schools they have never gone to, about jobs they have never applied for. Generalizations are one thing, saying everyone is doomed without any knowledge on the individual is another.

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CE2JD
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby CE2JD » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:23 pm

Matthies wrote:
stateofbeasley wrote:
Matthies wrote:Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:


Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.


Well I think, you Obs and several others do as well, and do a good job at it while remaining nuetral and postive. Things is that we have to remember its OUR prospective, so while we trie to give our advice based on what we have experienced, everyone’s mileage will vary. Atleast that's how I try to see it when I give advice. I think we all know that, so we stay away from the OMGZ T4 your not even going to get a job at McDonalds crap that some folks, without any real perspective or experience like to tell people they have never met, about schools they have never gone to, about jobs they have never applied for. Generalizations are one thing, saying everyone is doomed without any knowledge on the individual is another.


My father went to a T4 law school, got into lots of debt, and we were forced to move in with my grandparents when he couldn't find a job.

It was embarrassing.

Subsequently, my parents divorced. My Dad now teaches high school and coaches the soccer team.

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General Tso
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby General Tso » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:54 pm

how much debt could one get into in the 70s...tuition was like $300 a semester back then

Also - why such difficulty finding a job? My impression is that if you had even a college degree in the 70s-early 90s you were way ahead of the curve.

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:59 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Matthies wrote:
stateofbeasley wrote:
Matthies wrote:Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:


Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.


Well I think, you Obs and several others do as well, and do a good job at it while remaining nuetral and postive. Things is that we have to remember its OUR prospective, so while we trie to give our advice based on what we have experienced, everyone’s mileage will vary. Atleast that's how I try to see it when I give advice. I think we all know that, so we stay away from the OMGZ T4 your not even going to get a job at McDonalds crap that some folks, without any real perspective or experience like to tell people they have never met, about schools they have never gone to, about jobs they have never applied for. Generalizations are one thing, saying everyone is doomed without any knowledge on the individual is another.


My father went to a T4 law school, got into lots of debt, and we were forced to move in with my grandparents when he couldn't find a job.

It was embarrassing.

Subsequently, my parents divorced. My Dad now teaches high school and coaches the soccer team.


I don't think there were T4's back in the 70's. My mom said it was next to impossible to get in anywhere without a great LSAT/GPA when she was applying. Most people worked for tiny firms and got paid very little, but it wasn't super expensive to go in the first place.

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Matthies
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Matthies » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Matthies wrote:
stateofbeasley wrote:
Matthies wrote:Whoa look who the cat draged in from LSD, good to see you SOB :lol:


Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.


Well I think, you Obs and several others do as well, and do a good job at it while remaining nuetral and postive. Things is that we have to remember its OUR prospective, so while we trie to give our advice based on what we have experienced, everyone’s mileage will vary. Atleast that's how I try to see it when I give advice. I think we all know that, so we stay away from the OMGZ T4 your not even going to get a job at McDonalds crap that some folks, without any real perspective or experience like to tell people they have never met, about schools they have never gone to, about jobs they have never applied for. Generalizations are one thing, saying everyone is doomed without any knowledge on the individual is another.


My father went to a T4 law school, got into lots of debt, and we were forced to move in with my grandparents when he couldn't find a job.

It was embarrassing.

Subsequently, my parents divorced. My Dad now teaches high school and coaches the soccer team.



Lots of things in life are embarrassing, I had my own fair share growing up and in adulthood, I did not have the greatest parants, but they did what they thought was best at the time and I'm glad to have had them copared to what some of my freinds went trhough.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:10 pm

Matthies wrote:My father went to a T4 law school, got into lots of debt, and we were forced to move in with my grandparents when he couldn't find a job.

It was embarrassing.

Subsequently, my parents divorced. My Dad now teaches high school and coaches the soccer team.



Lots of things in life are embarrassing, I had my own fair share growing up and in adulthood, I did not have the greatest parants, but they did what they thought was best at the time and I'm glad to have had them copared to what some of my freinds went trhough.[/quote]

+1, my family started when my parents were 15 and 16, respectively. my dad joined the navy to provide for us, and they are now on their 29th year of marriage. I am the second (behind my older sister) to graduate from college, and it's all because my parents did everything they could to put us in a better situation than they had. i have had so many embarrassing moments in my life (living in a tent at one point). don't hold things against your parents if they don't work out like they planned, if they were really trying to better the situation.

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jcl2
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby jcl2 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:39 pm

keg411 wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Matthies wrote:
stateofbeasley wrote:
Thanks! I do my best to provide a balanced perspective.


Well I think, you Obs and several others do as well, and do a good job at it while remaining nuetral and postive. Things is that we have to remember its OUR prospective, so while we trie to give our advice based on what we have experienced, everyone’s mileage will vary. Atleast that's how I try to see it when I give advice. I think we all know that, so we stay away from the OMGZ T4 your not even going to get a job at McDonalds crap that some folks, without any real perspective or experience like to tell people they have never met, about schools they have never gone to, about jobs they have never applied for. Generalizations are one thing, saying everyone is doomed without any knowledge on the individual is another.


My father went to a T4 law school, got into lots of debt, and we were forced to move in with my grandparents when he couldn't find a job.

It was embarrassing.

Subsequently, my parents divorced. My Dad now teaches high school and coaches the soccer team.


I don't think there were T4's back in the 70's. My mom said it was next to impossible to get in anywhere without a great LSAT/GPA when she was applying. Most people worked for tiny firms and got paid very little, but it wasn't super expensive to go in the first place.


I think this is still true for the most part, and it is probably harder to get into the very top schools now. Most of us here on TLS just have a skewed perception of what a great LSAT/GPA combo is. Anything 3.5+/160+ is pretty darn good when considering the total pool of applicants. There are certainly a few really terrible, basically for-profit, schools that accept people with average or slightly below average numbers that are around now that weren't then, but to get into any somewhat reputable law school you have to have pretty good numbers.

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Pizon
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Pizon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:28 am

OperaSoprano wrote:I'm glad I'm not 22 anymore, though. 22 was directionless. 22 sucked. I hope 25 will bring some clarity, some discipline, and the ability to work toward getting shit figured out.


It won't.

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Pizon
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Pizon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:40 am

j2d3 wrote:People...who chase money are usually sad whether they find it or not.


This is a great quote. Did you coin it?

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englawyer
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby englawyer » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:47 am

Pizon wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I'm glad I'm not 22 anymore, though. 22 was directionless. 22 sucked. I hope 25 will bring some clarity, some discipline, and the ability to work toward getting shit figured out.


It won't.

+1 i just turned 26 and don't know what the hell i am doing or going to do

dsa1
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby dsa1 » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:29 pm

j2d3 wrote:ruleser - your point about tuition prices being market driven is exactly right, but also exactly what I find so confounding... why are there still SO MANY people willing to spend $150k in loans to *maybe* get a $100K job? it's really a pathetic aspiration!

If those people would go away, (and I guess the more those jobs disappear, the more those people will disappear from the pool of law applicants), then perhaps tuition prices would drop a bit... although I guess they never really drop, so at least maybe they'd stop going up. Still - the jobs *are* disappearing, and I'm saying these jobs are not even that high paying to begin with, so what the hell is driving these people? they are clamouring for a chance at an awfully boring-sounding job that pays well - but not great. why? their blind, dogged persistence is driving up law school prices, making it difficult to even be accepted at schools that once had great academic environments but now are polluted by anti-intellectual twits who can take standardized tests well... given a solid year of study and three chances... and who can get As in all their classes. these "skills" are actually indicators of just the perfect sort of robotic nimrod who pushes papers very well for countless hours at a relatively low cost. i don't want to go to school with people like that.

which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?


how do we make them go away?

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observationalist
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby observationalist » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:58 pm

dsa1 wrote:
j2d3 wrote:ruleser - your point about tuition prices being market driven is exactly right, but also exactly what I find so confounding... why are there still SO MANY people willing to spend $150k in loans to *maybe* get a $100K job? it's really a pathetic aspiration!

If those people would go away, (and I guess the more those jobs disappear, the more those people will disappear from the pool of law applicants), then perhaps tuition prices would drop a bit... although I guess they never really drop, so at least maybe they'd stop going up. Still - the jobs *are* disappearing, and I'm saying these jobs are not even that high paying to begin with, so what the hell is driving these people? they are clamouring for a chance at an awfully boring-sounding job that pays well - but not great. why? their blind, dogged persistence is driving up law school prices, making it difficult to even be accepted at schools that once had great academic environments but now are polluted by anti-intellectual twits who can take standardized tests well... given a solid year of study and three chances... and who can get As in all their classes. these "skills" are actually indicators of just the perfect sort of robotic nimrod who pushes papers very well for countless hours at a relatively low cost. i don't want to go to school with people like that.

which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?


how do we make them go away?


make the uninformed consumers informed, not only about the job prospects but about the debt they will take on and the difficulties of paying it off. if some mechanism were to come along that could correct the information asymmetry, then we might see prospective students splitting up into two groups: those who decide to pursue an alternate career because they realize they wouldn't be happy with a non-160K job, and those who want to be a lawyer badly enough that they decide to save up or pursue a lower debt burden by accepting scholarships or going PT while working. This would mean we get fewer, more enthusiastic, and less financially burdened applicants entering the legal profession. And that IMO would be a good thing.

SandyC877
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:16 am

j2d3 wrote:I am not worried about the job market after law school, because abstract cyclical phenomena don't dictate my personal decisions. I guess I'm lucky in that I already have a career that pays quite well, and I'll only be expanding my opportunities within my field by getting a JD. I'll probably also get another advanced degree in CS. In any case, I'm going back to school because I love being in school. The only part I'm not going to like is these maniacal people desperate to get the highest GPA at any cost so they can score their coveted "biglaw" jobs.

I don't get this mentality... but it's evident all over these boards. First of all, these $160K jobs - the "biglaw" jobs they want to land - these jobs aren't even that amazing in terms of salary... considering what you have to do to get them. You can get a job in TV production that pays better without any degree - not even a bachelors is required. Learn final cut. It's a way easier path to "riches." Or you could be a shooter on a reality TV show and bring in $800/day plus per diem, plus travel expenses... I know a makeup artists who charge $2000/day. You could also, like me, figure out how to program computers. You don't need school for that... everything you need is right in front of you... I taught myself (almost) everything I know about programming, and I made $2500/week - for a 35 hour (or so) week - every week for 3 years - doing IT / web production for a network TV show. It was obscene how easy my job was. Teaching myself several computer languages and working as a sysadmin obviously took time and effort, but I was making money the whole way through. It was all "on-the-job training." I never built up massive debt, and the jobs I ended up with were cushy, high paying, flexible, and easy. These aren't things I've heard about working in biglaw...

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

That said, having a legal education is worth something! A JD can be a great asset for an entrepreneur, and if you want to be an entrepreneur and *really* make money - you can't be afraid of a little debt. You've got to risk money to make money, and it's always best to risk someone else's. Happily, the government is more than willing to let you borrow your way through law school.

I hope this economy does successfully dissuade the kind of people who are attracted to law school because they want "high paying" salary jobs in "big law." These people seem exceedingly boring, immature, and douche-y. I'd prefer to be in school with intellectually curious, innovative people whose interests are interdisciplinary and who aspire to more than joining the great frat party in the sky(scrapers).


I hope we can be good friends from this point on. 8)

SandyC877
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:41 am

Sogui wrote:Also at the people who are mocking law salaries and those of us who are "gunning" for them:

The "market" usually does an excellent job of sorting out what is an "appropriate" salary for a given job based on training, skills required, etc...

Listing off anecdotes or "I've heard that xxx can make xxxx/day" is just silly. That's same misleading hearsay that gets people stuffed into TTT law schools. Sure in some fields, people who have staked out a reputation, got lucky, met the right people, etc... may earn unusually high wages. But if any Jane Doe could pick up a makeup kit and start earning absurd figures to poof up celebrities, the market would be flooded with "qualified" applicants with makeup schools opening up across the country, etc. Or if learning Final Cut was all it took to get a job in TV production, let alone one big enough to pull in huge numbers... then Final Cut would be flying off the shelves as people figured out they could triple their income by learning how to use a piece of software.

Every career has its "top earners", that doesn't mean anyone can enter that field and expect to be doing makeup for Hollywood celebrities or in production for a major TV show. I've seen so many high school/college friends fall into that silly mentality of "well I read that xxx career can make up to *top 2% salary earners in xxx* so I'm just going to get a job in that!" Some of these were decent ideas (personal trainer, air traffic controller) for people who really didn't have many other options. But even the aspiring personal trainer kept citing these ridiculous numbers. People if it was easy as taking a physical education major at a big state school to pull in those kinds of numbers, ugh you get the point....

With the free flow of information we have in society today, especially for those of us who try and stay informed, any career that involved exceptional wages in return for a relatively little amount of work/training compared to similar jobs would start getting discussed more and more, more would enter that field over time and the "prices" would adjust themselves. And aside from programming I can't imagine any of those other jobs I've heard mentioned would stay in "disequilibrium" for long given the relatively easy requirements to enter that sort of field.

I admit part of the reason I'm choosing law is the salary, and part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades there. You have the ability to go to almost any big city in the country and earn an extremely impressive income, and the JD is more flexible than many people make it out to be.

You also destroyed your credibility j2d3 when you call something like $160,000 individual starting salary for Biglaw as "middle-class", when the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is hovering around $50,000. When a 25-year old can start making over 3 times what a middle-aged couple is capable of bringing in, I wouldn't call it middle class. Many lawyers who start out in Biglaw can easily end up making 250-300k+ in a decade or two (30s, 40s) and break into the top 1-2% income class in America.


You have a point if these 160k biglaw firms are stationed in an area of your preference and you have no other life commitments, such as family, friends, relationships etc. But I'm guessing you didn't consider even the cost of living at some of these 160k law locals. What if you don't even want to live in that state? Why would you disregard the quality of life of the middle aged couple making a median salary? That means something to them. You make it sound as if life is on a straight path, and your top law JD will carry over onto your next life. I'm guessing you're in your early 20s. Not that I'm any older, but in 60 years or so, you won't even exist.

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los blancos
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby los blancos » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:06 am

prezidentv8 wrote:I should also toss out there that I find it hard to believe that many of the posters on this board couldn't get into some medical school if they felt like it.


+14785431748314314




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