Why You Should Go To Law School

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:23 pm

adamlippes wrote:
I plan to work for the DA’s office, is this sufficient?


Probably not going to happen. lol.


Oh, okay. LMFAO

Z3RO
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Z3RO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:26 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:29 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
MTal wrote:
Jones, Dow wrote:just remember that if you can't make it in law school, there's always a career in "finance" waiting for you. if you need advice, talk to MTal. he's our resident insurance salesman.


I work at a big brokerage house, not at an insurance company. And sales is only a part of what I do (bout 30 %).


same shit, different toilet


Now who's being the elitist?

Edit: If you're set on being an ADA good luck. In your situation that would be a best case scenario; they require top grades as well, almost as much as biglaw.
Last edited by MTal on Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:32 pm

Z3RO wrote:adam is being a bit of a jerk, but he's got a point. Your GPA will affect what kind of lawyer you'll be, because that will help determine what school you get into. That will in turn determine what job you get out of law school. That determines your future gigs.

I'm not as gloom and doom as some people on here, but you should recognize that those two numbers have a huge affect on your future. Retake the LSAT and crush it. In fact, I would be studying for it right now if I were you.


I am currently taking Test Masters. I took the LSAT on a whim last year with NO studying. Believe me, i am putting in the time (studying after class, after work and during lunch breaks)

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:35 pm

adamlippes wrote:
DannyJames wrote:you and Mtal must share the same crystal ball. enjoy that thought while you get passed up by the lesser people that will outwork you in the end, myself included. and calling me a bloody idiot, wow...what will i do now?


I find this very hard to believe. I'm working in NYC BigLaw, and my hours generally have to be around 2400. You are presumptively locked out of BigLaw, to speak nothing of NYC, and your hours will be a lot less (or the same, but for significantly less money). It seems, from the get go, that there will be no passing up of me by you. Not at all.


you win, you're a much better person than me. I can only hope to one day be as unique as you and spend my time as a lawyer cruising these boards telling others how their lives will turn out.

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CE2JD
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby CE2JD » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:37 pm

BeastCoastHype wrote:Yet again the losers of TLS prove their unparalleled ability to turn anything remotely positive into a horrendously negative dick measuring contest.


As opposed to a naively glib dick measuring contest?

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:39 pm

MTal wrote:Now who's being the elitist?

Edit: If you're set on being an ADA good luck. In your situation that would be a best case scenario; they require top grades as well, almost as much as biglaw.


I'm speaking from experience, I dabbled in that and then GTFO. Thanks for the wish of luck too.

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:51 pm

Adam, I know you're a 2L with a SA for the summer at a T6... but I would be very, very, very careful before I start bashing others and saying "haha, you aren't getting a job". You could easily be in the $150k debt + unemployment boat next fall if you get no-offered at your firm. Just a bit of food for thought.

adamlippes
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby adamlippes » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:53 pm

...
Last edited by adamlippes on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:04 pm

adamlippes wrote:
keg411 wrote:Adam, I know you're a 2L with a SA for the summer at a T6... but I would be very, very, very careful before I start bashing others and saying "haha, you aren't getting a job". You could easily be in the $150k debt + unemployment boat next fall if you get no-offered at your firm. Just a bit of food for thought.


I'm very aware of this possibility (and am very scared of this).

That said, I'm not dangling my job offer as a way of deriding people. Rather, I am cautioning people about entering law school, and I only mentioned my job situation to diffuse the notion that I have some sort of leg in this race. I derive no humor or joy from the fact that people don't have jobs.


Then don't say "no, lol" when someone says what their job goal is. "LOL" = I am laughing at you. And while you don't have a leg in this race right now, you might in a year. I think the warning shouldn't be "don't go to law school"... it should be "don't go to law school if you are going to be taking on an extreme amount of debt".

The funniest thing is that a "shit law" lawyer is paying for a pretty solid portion of my sister's T14 education (her firm gave offers to all but 1 SA this past summer). Hence why I've gotten rid of the "GO TO THE BEST SCHOOL!!!! BIGLAW OR DEATH" attitude that got the best of me and now have more of a "be careful with your money, but if this is what you want to do, go for it" attitude.
Last edited by keg411 on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SpaceDawg
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby SpaceDawg » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:05 pm

j2d3 wrote:ruleser - your point about tuition prices being market driven is exactly right, but also exactly what I find so confounding... why are there still SO MANY people willing to spend $150k in loans to *maybe* get a $100K job? it's really a pathetic aspiration!

If those people would go away, (and I guess the more those jobs disappear, the more those people will disappear from the pool of law applicants), then perhaps tuition prices would drop a bit... although I guess they never really drop, so at least maybe they'd stop going up. Still - the jobs *are* disappearing, and I'm saying these jobs are not even that high paying to begin with, so what the hell is driving these people? they are clamouring for a chance at an awfully boring-sounding job that pays well - but not great. why? their blind, dogged persistence is driving up law school prices, making it difficult to even be accepted at schools that once had great academic environments but now are polluted by anti-intellectual twits who can take standardized tests well... given a solid year of study and three chances... and who can get As in all their classes. these "skills" are actually indicators of just the perfect sort of robotic nimrod who pushes papers very well for countless hours at a relatively low cost. i don't want to go to school with people like that.

which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?



Are you living inside my head?

adamlippes
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby adamlippes » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:08 pm

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Last edited by adamlippes on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:08 pm

Adam & MTal


....bottom-line is this: I'm going to law school regardless, I realize that I will graduate with debt and that securing meaningful employment will take hard work. I am sure there are many TLSers that do not have BigLaw dreams and choose to go to LS in order to better themselves and study something in which they have a marked interest.

I apologize to the both of you as it seems my choices evoke great concern for my financial well-being. I wish each of you success.

Adam, I am certainly happy that I was able to make you LOL with my desire to work w/ the DA out of LS and I assure you that if this does not pan out, I will be okay (I'm guessing you are ROFL at this point). Although, I will most-likely be a lowly T-2 grad, I would like to impart some advice to you; try not to be such a jack@$$ because at the end of the day it's not going to get you anywhere.

MTal, you dropped-out of LS and would probably be better-served limiting your time on TLS and focusing on your clients that have entrusted their hard-earned money with you and your brokerage. I'm sure they would happily take their investments elsewhere if they knew their advisor was perusing the pages of TLS attacking their sons and daughters for their decision to attend law school.

Z3RO
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Z3RO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:09 pm

keg411 wrote: I think the warning shouldn't be "don't go to law school"... it should be "don't go to law school if you are going to be taking on an extreme amount of debt".

I disagree. Anybody going to T14 etc is going to take on an extreme amount of debt. 100k+ is an extreme amount of debt for somebody with no tangible asset to show for it. You should at least qualify your warning a bit, don't you think?

A person might pay sticker at Columbia and be fine (read: models and bottles). Another might do the same and be screwed. Worse off the person paying sticker at say, oh I don't know, WUSTL.

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:23 pm

Z3RO wrote:
keg411 wrote: I think the warning shouldn't be "don't go to law school"... it should be "don't go to law school if you are going to be taking on an extreme amount of debt".

I disagree. Anybody going to T14 etc is going to take on an extreme amount of debt. 100k+ is an extreme amount of debt for somebody with no tangible asset to show for it. You should at least qualify your warning a bit, don't you think?

A person might pay sticker at Columbia and be fine (read: models and bottles). Another might do the same and be screwed. Worse off the person paying sticker at say, oh I don't know, WUSTL.


Meh, I don't think anyone should take $100k debt lightly. Also pay sticker doesn't mean that you're taking on debt... depends how much money the person has, how much money the person's parents are paying, etc. etc. Columbia and WUSTL at sticker cost approximately the same, so obviously it would make sense. But someone who got into Columbia wouldn't pay sticker at WUSTL. And someone who would be going to WUSTL at sticker could probably get into regional-state-school-with-scholarship (minus Cali). So you're never really comparing T14 sticker with T30 sticker for an individual. It's T14 sticker vs. T30 with $$$ or T30 sticker vs. T1-T2 state school/school with a no-stipulation-scholarship.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 pm

this forum, that i originally came on to get advice and share my thoughts with others in the process, has quickly shown me that law will be no different than any other profession. there will be solid people that offer their thoughts and advice constructively and with good intentions, and there will ALWAYS be the high and mighty person that is just waiting to pounce on the next "poor soul" that he/she can chew up and spit out.

my point is, thanks to everyone for every piece of information provided. and for those of you that scoff at my scores and predict what i will do with my life through my total post count of <100, i wish you the best and hope we never cross paths, for your attitudes are sure to darken any room.

Z3RO
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Z3RO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 pm

keg411 wrote:
Z3RO wrote:
keg411 wrote: I think the warning shouldn't be "don't go to law school"... it should be "don't go to law school if you are going to be taking on an extreme amount of debt".

I disagree. Anybody going to T14 etc is going to take on an extreme amount of debt. 100k+ is an extreme amount of debt for somebody with no tangible asset to show for it. You should at least qualify your warning a bit, don't you think?

A person might pay sticker at Columbia and be fine (read: models and bottles). Another might do the same and be screwed. Worse off the person paying sticker at say, oh I don't know, WUSTL.


Meh, I don't think anyone should take $100k debt lightly. Also pay sticker doesn't mean that you're taking on debt... depends how much money the person has, how much money the person's parents are paying, etc. etc. Columbia and WUSTL at sticker cost approximately the same, so obviously it would make sense. But someone who got into Columbia wouldn't pay sticker at WUSTL. And someone who would be going to WUSTL at sticker could probably get into regional-state-school-with-scholarship (minus Cali). So you're never really comparing T14 sticker with T30 sticker for an individual. It's T14 sticker vs. T30 with $$$ or T30 sticker vs. T1-T2 state school/school with a no-stipulation-scholarship.

Sure. I would still advise that person who got $$ at Wash U to pay sticker at Columbia.

The "people might have parents paying or pay out of pocket" is a strawman. Just about everybody is paying with loans.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:40 pm

To the people making garbage posts:


Issue:
Should an individual go to law school?

Rule:
One should realistically weigh the benefits and satisfaction one expects to gain from a JD against the negative aspects of legal work, a law degree, and debt that one might reasonably expect to result from law school.

Facts:
-It's really really really really really really really really really really hard to find work

-A very large proportion of the attainable work out there doesn't pay well

-It's really really really really really really really really really really harder to find work, especially good work, if you're at a lower-ranked school and/or your grades stink

-Almost all of the legal work out there is time-consuming and difficult

-Debt is scary and handicaps your life if you don't find well-paying work or good LRAP

-Worse numbers lead to a lower-ranked law school

-<insert one's goals, preferences, and expectations here>

Conclusion:
It depends.



Now did I miss something here, or is all the negativity in this thread the result of people assuming that people trying to go to a non-elite institution are blissfully unaware of the state of the economy and/or legal market?? I think it can be safely assumed that these people get it, at least if they're on TLS. My point a while back was not that people still in law school could not contribute information about the state of the general legal market (because this is painfully obvious information), but that they could not contribute anything unique to the conversation about legal career options - again, obvious things aside. Everything that you people are spewing is painfully apparent and/or just designed to put people down. Let people make their choices without ridiculing them. Informing is one thing. Harassing is another.

In a way, I find it a little bit sad that some of you have seemed to imply that you are better in some way. In a thread that is specifically designed to be positive just to get away from the negative garbage that people repeatedly hammer (by the way, why the hell did any of you even go to law school if it's that bad?? Footnote: I would be happier if TLS stopped jerking off doctors and/or academics), you have, in my opinion, tried to make yourselves feel more knowledgeable and/or cool by pointing out seemingly obvious facts and then harassing people who have made their own decisions in light of these facts. I'm not sure if you're honestly trying to dissuade these people from going to law school (which would be fairly patronizing), badgering them for the sake of making yourselves feel good (apparently we have a quitter and an insecure T6-er here), or just trolling for a good time.

We get it. You each did a year of law school. You know some things. You've pointed out facts that each of us has probably heard about 10 billion times by this point. You're very informed, impressive people. Good for you. Whoop-dee-do. Would you like a medal? Now that all of us lowly peasants are informed, do you think you might want to contribute something productive and useful?

In case I was not already abundantly clear:

WE GET YOUR POINT. IT IS NOT THAT INSIGHTFUL. STOP BEING JERKS ABOUT IT.

acdisagod
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby acdisagod » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:48 pm

"I've never criticized anyone for going to a T14. In fact, I believe when you aggregate the earnings of the students who attend T14-T7 from this year on out, it will stilll be a net loss."

It's not even close to a net loss. The average political science major makes around 40,000 dollars after graduating from college. I worked my ass off (went from 154 to 171) to get into a top 14. I have no doubt I'll be making six figures when I graduate.

Now, if you have some marketable skill, fine, maybe law school doesn't pay. But if law is your thing and you work hard and do well at a T14 or T30 you'll be fine.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:48 pm

prezidentv8 ........

Image

Well said!!

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General Tso
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby General Tso » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:51 pm

Adamlippe's advice:

Biglaw? NO CHANCE
Midlaw? DOESNT EXIST
Small-law? KILL SELF
In house? 10+ YEARS EXP
ADA? ALSO NO CHANCE

Is there ANY job that you think a person from a T2 school is qualified to do besides mop floors?

I mean, come on now. This is getting absurd even for the alarmists. Even shitty schools have 90%+ employed after 9 months, and you simply cannot bullshit me that they are all working at Starbucks. Who goes on a message board and tells someone who will likely attend UF or FSU that they have NO CHANCE at being an ADA?

You guys are idiots

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:52 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
I think it can be safely assumed that these people get it, at least if they're on TLS.


If you "got it" then you wouldn't even be considering going. ITE, anything below T14 is a TTT if you're paying sticker for it.

Z3RO
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Z3RO » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:53 pm

acdisagod wrote:"I've never criticized anyone for going to a T14. In fact, I believe when you aggregate the earnings of the students who attend T14-T7 from this year on out, it will stilll be a net loss."

It's not even close to a net loss. The average political science major makes around 40,000 dollars after graduating from college. I worked my ass off (went from 154 to 171) to get into a top 14. I have no doubt I'll be making six figures when I graduate.

Now, if you have some marketable skill, fine, maybe law school doesn't pay. But if law is your thing and you work hard and do well at a T14 or T30 you'll be fine.

haha, yeah, you're totally screwed if you're stuck going to Duke or Nortwestern for law school.

acdisagod
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby acdisagod » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:54 pm

It is not TTT if you would your as off at and graduate top 20% at a school like Fordham. You're deluded if you think the top Fordham graduates are gonna have bad career prospects for these next ten years.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:56 pm

acdisagod wrote:It is not TTT if you would your as off at and graduate top 20% at a school like Fordham.


Have you read the employment forum? T 10 % at T14 have been shut out of OCI, what does that say about everywhere else?




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