Why You Should Go To Law School

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bumblebeetoona
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby bumblebeetoona » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:09 pm

j2d3 wrote:You could also, like me, figure out how to program computers. You don't need school for that... everything you need is right in front of you... I taught myself (almost) everything I know about programming, and I made $2500/week - for a 35 hour (or so) week - every week for 3 years - doing IT / web production for a network TV show. It was obscene how easy my job was.


I've always wanted to learn how to program, but I don't have any idea where to start (I'm not wanting it for a career, just personal knowledge and maybe a side gig every now and then). If you have any tips, PM me!

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Sogui
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Sogui » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:11 pm

Also at the people who are mocking law salaries and those of us who are "gunning" for them:

The "market" usually does an excellent job of sorting out what is an "appropriate" salary for a given job based on training, skills required, etc...

Listing off anecdotes or "I've heard that xxx can make xxxx/day" is just silly. That's same misleading hearsay that gets people stuffed into TTT law schools. Sure in some fields, people who have staked out a reputation, got lucky, met the right people, etc... may earn unusually high wages. But if any Jane Doe could pick up a makeup kit and start earning absurd figures to poof up celebrities, the market would be flooded with "qualified" applicants with makeup schools opening up across the country, etc. Or if learning Final Cut was all it took to get a job in TV production, let alone one big enough to pull in huge numbers... then Final Cut would be flying off the shelves as people figured out they could triple their income by learning how to use a piece of software.

Every career has its "top earners", that doesn't mean anyone can enter that field and expect to be doing makeup for Hollywood celebrities or in production for a major TV show. I've seen so many high school/college friends fall into that silly mentality of "well I read that xxx career can make up to *top 2% salary earners in xxx* so I'm just going to get a job in that!" Some of these were decent ideas (personal trainer, air traffic controller) for people who really didn't have many other options. But even the aspiring personal trainer kept citing these ridiculous numbers. People if it was easy as taking a physical education major at a big state school to pull in those kinds of numbers, ugh you get the point....

With the free flow of information we have in society today, especially for those of us who try and stay informed, any career that involved exceptional wages in return for a relatively little amount of work/training compared to similar jobs would start getting discussed more and more, more would enter that field over time and the "prices" would adjust themselves. And aside from programming I can't imagine any of those other jobs I've heard mentioned would stay in "disequilibrium" for long given the relatively easy requirements to enter that sort of field.

I admit part of the reason I'm choosing law is the salary, and part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades there. You have the ability to go to almost any big city in the country and earn an extremely impressive income, and the JD is more flexible than many people make it out to be.

You also destroyed your credibility j2d3 when you call something like $160,000 individual starting salary for Biglaw as "middle-class", when the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is hovering around $50,000. When a 25-year old can start making over 3 times what a middle-aged couple is capable of bringing in, I wouldn't call it middle class. Many lawyers who start out in Biglaw can easily end up making 250-300k+ in a decade or two (30s, 40s) and break into the top 1-2% income class in America.
Last edited by Sogui on Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:11 pm

jimmyd11011 wrote:His name is Chemerinsky.


Actually......His name is Robert Paulson

bahama
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby bahama » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:18 pm

Sogui wrote:I admit part of the reason I'm choosing law is the salary, and part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.

You also destroyed your credibility j2d3 when you call something like $160,000 individual starting salary for Biglaw as "middle-class", when the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is hovering around $50,000. When a 25-year old can start making over 3 times what a middle-aged couple is capable of bringing in, I wouldn't call it middle class. Many lawyers who start out in Biglaw can easily end up making 250-300k+ in a decade or two (30s, 40s) and break into the top 1-2% income class in America.


It's very unclear whether $160k in biglaw "is almost a sure thing" for anyone these days, even at a top school.

Most big law jobs are concentrated in very expensive locales where you would be hard pressed to buy a home or afford the other trappings of middle class life even on $160k, especially when you are paying off $100-$200k in education debt.

Not many people stick around in biglaw more than 3-4 yrs and salaries at the places they go (corporate in house, govt, small/med firms) do not often pay the $250-300k (even after a decade or two) which you imply is so easy to reach.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:25 pm

bahama wrote:It's very unclear whether $160k in biglaw "is almost a sure thing" for anyone these days, even at a top school.

Honestly, 160K to start, while needing training, was silly. It continued while possible, but now it'll be more real. So what if you start $100K instead of 160K? If you are good, you'll get where you're going. And honestly, there's more likely to be $$ when you get there since they're not throwing 160K at what are essentially entry-level clerks.

Personally, I'd be leery to work for a firm that did that. I like ones with sounder finanical practices, so when I'm say a partner, I'm not carrying a massive expected load just to cover so guy just learning the trade.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:29 pm

bahama wrote:
Sogui wrote:I admit part of the reason I'm choosing law is the salary, and part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.

You also destroyed your credibility j2d3 when you call something like $160,000 individual starting salary for Biglaw as "middle-class", when the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is hovering around $50,000. When a 25-year old can start making over 3 times what a middle-aged couple is capable of bringing in, I wouldn't call it middle class. Many lawyers who start out in Biglaw can easily end up making 250-300k+ in a decade or two (30s, 40s) and break into the top 1-2% income class in America.

Most big law jobs are concentrated in very expensive locales where you would be hard pressed to buy a home or afford the other trappings of middle class life even on $160k, especially when you are paying off $100-$200k in education debt.

You best be joking.

sckon
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby sckon » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:50 pm

I think ill stick around here....much more entertaining than the fee tracker thread.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:14 pm

Wow. If I weren't so busy at work, I would respond to this right away. Rest assured that a response is forthcoming.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Mr. Matlock » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:16 pm

MTal wrote:Wow. If I weren't so busy at work, I would respond to this right away. Rest assured that a response is forthcoming.

To which one? The little i-crush bumblebeetoona has on you?

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Kohinoor
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:20 pm

Sogui wrote:Also at the people who are mocking law salaries and those of us who are "gunning" for them:

The "market" usually does an excellent job of sorting out what is an "appropriate" salary for a given job based on training, skills required, etc...

Listing off anecdotes or "I've heard that xxx can make xxxx/day" is just silly. That's same misleading hearsay that gets people stuffed into TTT law schools. Sure in some fields, people who have staked out a reputation, got lucky, met the right people, etc... may earn unusually high wages. But if any Jane Doe could pick up a makeup kit and start earning absurd figures to poof up celebrities, the market would be flooded with "qualified" applicants with makeup schools opening up across the country, etc. Or if learning Final Cut was all it took to get a job in TV production, let alone one big enough to pull in huge numbers... then Final Cut would be flying off the shelves as people figured out they could triple their income by learning how to use a piece of software.

Every career has its "top earners", that doesn't mean anyone can enter that field and expect to be doing makeup for Hollywood celebrities or in production for a major TV show. I've seen so many high school/college friends fall into that silly mentality of "well I read that xxx career can make up to *top 2% salary earners in xxx* so I'm just going to get a job in that!" Some of these were decent ideas (personal trainer, air traffic controller) for people who really didn't have many other options. But even the aspiring personal trainer kept citing these ridiculous numbers. People if it was easy as taking a physical education major at a big state school to pull in those kinds of numbers, ugh you get the point....

With the free flow of information we have in society today, especially for those of us who try and stay informed, any career that involved exceptional wages in return for a relatively little amount of work/training compared to similar jobs would start getting discussed more and more, more would enter that field over time and the "prices" would adjust themselves. And aside from programming I can't imagine any of those other jobs I've heard mentioned would stay in "disequilibrium" for long given the relatively easy requirements to enter that sort of field.

I admit part of the reason I'm choosing law is the salary, and part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their. You have the ability to go to almost any big city in the country and earn an extremely impressive income, and the JD is more flexible than many people make it out to be.

You also destroyed your credibility j2d3 when you call something like $160,000 individual starting salary for Biglaw as "middle-class", when the median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is hovering around $50,000. When a 25-year old can start making over 3 times what a middle-aged couple is capable of bringing in, I wouldn't call it middle class. Many lawyers who start out in Biglaw can easily end up making 250-300k+ in a decade or two (30s, 40s) and break into the top 1-2% income class in America.

>part of the reason so many other intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.
>intelligent people choose this field is because the $160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.
>$160k+ starting salary at Biglaw is almost a sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.
>sure-thing for those of us attending top law schools as long as we don't screw up our grades their.
>as long as we don't screw up our grades their.
>don't screw up our grades their.
>their.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:34 pm

Thanks 4 spelling correction re: chemerinsky. His name is like anemone to me, which I'm always spelling as anemone.
Ireferred to $160k as middle class because in la and nyc, it pretty much is.... a decent in either city starts at 500k. If you want kids, etc, you'll need lots more unless you want to raise them in a studio or a house in the ghetto.
I mentioned other fields not to suggest their average incomes but to point out that people in the high end of any field can make $150k or even more without such expensive educations... so if you are attracted to law for the high salary alone you might want to consider doing something you love, something you can pursue right now, and not spend so much to get a good but not great salaried job with exceedingly long hours. There are good reasons to go to law school, but chasing a salaried position that is becoming increasingly rare is not one. That doesn't mean its a bad job or a bad goal... but its awful if you aren't really that interested in law from an academic perspective or if you view this process as the path of least resistance to you high-paying dream job.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:36 pm

Spell check corrected my purposeful misspelling of anemone as anenome

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:39 pm

It's really hard to do this from my phone. I meant "a decent house in either city...."

Richard Rorty
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Richard Rorty » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:11 pm

Sort of a side discussion, but LOL @ the person who said that he'd expect to find freethinkers at Berkeley and not at Chicago. As a Berkeley undergrad, I can tell you that your expectations are completely off-base. Pre-professionals are everywhere ranked high, and given that people with academic aspirations seem to self-select into Chicago, you might even find a greater proportion of intellectually curious students there.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Richard Rorty wrote:Sort of a side discussion, but LOL @ the person who said that he'd expect to find freethinkers at Berkeley and not at Chicago. As a Berkeley undergrad, I can tell you that your expectations are completely off-base. Pre-professionals are everywhere ranked high, and given that people with academic aspirations seem to self-select into Chicago, you might even find a greater proportion of intellectually curious students there.

Could be, was just my thinking - have nothing but impression to back it up. I guess seeing "Global Cooling" coming from Chicago should indicate they are open to free thinking - but it does seem only if you go far enough to the right you are off in the Atlantic somewhere...

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algren
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby algren » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:43 pm

MTal wrote:Wow. If I weren't so busy at work, I would respond to this right away. Rest assured that a response is forthcoming.


I don't know about the rest of you, but I am (seriously) giddy with anticipation for this.

GATORTIM wrote:
jimmyd11011 wrote:His name is Chemerinsky.


Actually......His name is Robert Paulson


I nearly fell out of my chair when I finished the sentence. Totally did not see it coming.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:45 pm

MTal wrote:The reason I hang around here is to provide a counterpoint to your wildly idealistic and naive perspective which I believe is all too prevalent and leads people down a primrose path to poverty.


Get a Fawkes mask tar and end statements like this with "But you may call me P" and people might like you more. :lol:

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bumblebeetoona
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby bumblebeetoona » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:49 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
MTal wrote:Wow. If I weren't so busy at work, I would respond to this right away. Rest assured that a response is forthcoming.

To which one? The little i-crush bumblebeetoona has on you?


I don't have an i-crush. I actually think MTal is kind of a dick sometimes. I still like him, though, because he's not drinking the law school Kool-Aid. I respect his candor and I think he makes very valid points that people should pay more attention to.

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Always Credited
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Always Credited » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:52 pm

bumblebeetoona wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
MTal wrote:Wow. If I weren't so busy at work, I would respond to this right away. Rest assured that a response is forthcoming.

To which one? The little i-crush bumblebeetoona has on you?


I don't have an i-crush. I actually think MTal is kind of a dick sometimes. I still like him, though, because he's not drinking the law school Kool-Aid. I respect his candor and I think he makes very valid points that people should pay more attention to.


Oftentimes his responses make me wonder if hes about to be drinking the suicide cult Kool-Aid instead.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:54 pm

ruleser wrote:
Richard Rorty wrote:Sort of a side discussion, but LOL @ the person who said that he'd expect to find freethinkers at Berkeley and not at Chicago. As a Berkeley undergrad, I can tell you that your expectations are completely off-base. Pre-professionals are everywhere ranked high, and given that people with academic aspirations seem to self-select into Chicago, you might even find a greater proportion of intellectually curious students there.

Could be, was just my thinking - have nothing but impression to back it up. I guess seeing "Global Cooling" coming from Chicago should indicate they are open to free thinking - but it does seem only if you go far enough to the right you are off in the Atlantic somewhere...


Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.

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sundevil77
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby sundevil77 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:25 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
ruleser wrote:
Richard Rorty wrote:Sort of a side discussion, but LOL @ the person who said that he'd expect to find freethinkers at Berkeley and not at Chicago. As a Berkeley undergrad, I can tell you that your expectations are completely off-base. Pre-professionals are everywhere ranked high, and given that people with academic aspirations seem to self-select into Chicago, you might even find a greater proportion of intellectually curious students there.

Could be, was just my thinking - have nothing but impression to back it up. I guess seeing "Global Cooling" coming from Chicago should indicate they are open to free thinking - but it does seem only if you go far enough to the right you are off in the Atlantic somewhere...


Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.


I find it ironic that Ruleser wants a "free-thinking" school with the caveat that he won't go to what he deems a conservative school. So if I get this right..."I want a school that explores all ideas as long as none of them is conservative in nature. If we do explore any conservative ideas, it needs to be done from my own liberal perspective." Priceless. LOL. :lol:

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:28 pm

worldtraveler wrote:Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.


Am I right in thinking it's not cool to contact professors in a field you're interested in *before* you've been accepted to their school? My intuition tells me that it's totally uncool. Just need confirmation.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:34 pm

Sogui wrote:
ntzsch wrote:
MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


haha *** as MTal's eyes go blank with disbelief***


That guy really is a piece of work... nobody can ever end up financially better off or happy as a lawyer... NOBODY!


The odds of you financially succeeding after graduating from law school are heavily, let me repeat, HEAVILY stacked against you. And the farther away you get from HYS the worse it gets. Even the law school administrators and professors are telling their students that they shouldn't be there for the money (see related Hastings thread). How else apart from biglaw do you repay your loans? LRAP? That's only at the top schools. Shitlaw? With starting salaries of 35k in NEW YORK of all places, good luck.

Seriously dude, think about it. Why the fuck do you think our government subsidizes higher education? Do you think it might be because no private lender would be INSANE enough to donate 100k to a prospective applicant of a TTT diploma mill, knowing full well that said applicant would NEVER be able to pay their loans back?

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Haven
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Haven » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:38 pm

This is supposed to be the happy thread.

Image

Law school: You Can Do IT!

Prepare for intellectual stimulation and a decent shot at a +$90k/yr salary!

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lbeezy
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby lbeezy » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:39 pm

Law school sucks, kids.




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