Why You Should Go To Law School

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:25 pm

DannyJames wrote:
MTal wrote:
DannyJames wrote: otherwise, kindly sit and read without commenting :D


You know this is just going to egg me on, right?


egg you on or not, provide stats for your argument. i'd LOVE to see them.


Are you fucking kidding me?

keg411
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby keg411 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:37 pm

The goal should just be - keep your debt as low as possible if you have no one helping you out (or the equivalent if you are getting help). Don't expect $160k. It really ISN'T necessary and you aren't going to have to killself if you don't make it. Don't expect glamourous work. Small law (and midlaw) can mean MUCH better hours (9-5, limited weekends), time to have a family, and plenty to live on.

The problem is that the attitude of "BigLaw or bust" is dangerous and generally stupid.

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wardboro
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby wardboro » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:39 pm

keg411 wrote:The goal should just be - keep your debt as low as possible if you have no one helping you out (or the equivalent if you are getting help). Don't expect $160k. It really ISN'T necessary and you aren't going to have to killself if you don't make it. Don't expect glamourous work. Small law (and midlaw) can mean MUCH better hours (9-5, limited weekends), time to have a family, and plenty to live on.

The problem is that the attitude of "BigLaw or bust" is dangerous and generally stupid.


Agreed on all points.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:40 pm

adamlippes wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:I'm going to jump on the 'No Law School' bandwagon here. I just wrote an 18 page memo and am running on sleep dep. We're tallking caffeine pills and 5 Red Bulls. I. look. crazy. This would of course be the morning where they grab me for our yearbook picture.


Not really sure this is at all illuminating. Luckily popular culture seems to have accurately paralleled reality in terms of law school in this regard: We all know it's hard work.

Unfortunately, popular culture veered in the wrong direction when people thought that earning a JD is license to print money. Not true. At all. Even more unfortunate is that a good chunk of people here still seem to think it.

Clearly my complaint was that I look like a deranged homeless man in the picture.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:46 pm

MTal wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:MTal

$100k is A LOT of debt, but so is the $60k financed by a dude pulling in $45 grand a year to buy a new BMW; which is worse? You might be able to touch more lives or combat the nations debt crisis by picketing high-end car dealerships rather than admonishing 0L's that have the same ambition you once held, but failed to realize.


Um, you're comparing a tangible asset to what is essentially a piece of paper. At least you can resell the Beamer if you're not happy with it and can partially get your money back. I'd like to see you try and do the same with a J.D.

Edit: I guess there have been a few J.D.'s for sale on e-bay. Can't speak as to their auction price though.


I would not go so far as to classify a Beamer as an asset (unless you are using it for a paper route or staging bikini models on it for a photo shoot). That piece of paper/JD that you speak of will certainly afford you the opportunity to obtain "assets". Our lives are surrounded by intangibles that have value; in the corporate world it is called Goodwill/Brand Equity and in education its called a degree. I'm sure that if any of us had to have an operation we would hope the man holding the knife has a few "pieces of paper" (hopefully not purchased on e-bay).

SomethingCorprt
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby SomethingCorprt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:48 pm

No matter what law school you attend it must be expected that there is hard work involved. As students we must have motivation, determination, and most of all the ability to challenge/question what's put in front of us. After graduating with my BA I didn't know what I wanted to do. No one said I had to figure it out at 22 years old, although that's how I felt. So the last year or so I've explored many options and I don't regret taking this time off to find the path I've chosen.

I am not "legally blonde", an "intellectual twit", or a "robot" as some of you have labeled people like myself. I can only hope I don't go to a school with people who are as condescending, and elitist as some of the responses on this board have been. I've always detested the upper echelon and for that exact reason I do not want to attend a top school. I prefer a school with a lower ranking because it'll be the commoners like myself who can't afford a high priced education without the nonsense of people like you. I don't need a big name law school to make me stand out, the effort I will put into law school will be worth more to me than the haughtiness you've contended with.

As a final note please do not think of a lower ranked school or people who've developed into themselves later then you have, to not have the ability to think freely. Whoever mentioned that just really threw the wrench into the gears.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:56 pm

wardboro wrote:
DannyJames wrote:
wardboro wrote:
DannyJames wrote: but i also don't think solely in terms of $$ like apparently the majority of you do


Quotes like these will win you tons of friends in law school. Everyone loves the self-righteous kid who came to law school for the "right reasons" while everyone else there is just a money-grubber. Honestly, you'll make more friends on this board, in law school, and in life if you purge this mentality.

While some believe there are intangible benefits to the practice of law, law is often boring, tedious, and a lot of people leave the profession in the long-run. I think if you don't consider the $$ part as you approach taking on a large debt at an early age, you're really not evaluating the decision from a mature, multifaceted perspective. Whether you make biglaw (great credentials) public defender in podunk (good credentials) or unemployed (poor credentials) that debt is generally non-dischargable. (I know some LRAP options exist, but even public interest jobs are not in great supply right now, so you have to consider debt if you're risk averse.)


1. I don't care if you're my friend on here, and my viewpoint is not self-righteous just because i don't already hate my life and the law
2. I said nothing about my future peers, and i make no assumptions as to their outlooks on this topic
3. My life seems to be going quite well with the mentality that I will make it happen if I dedicate myself to it
4. I don't need a vague and unfounded description of law, and those that don't like it.
5. Just because I say I am confident in my abilities and decision, and money is not a huge factor factor for me, does not mean I have not/am not considering it in my decision.
6. In the long-run, I'll end up doing what makes me happy, one way or another :mrgreen:


fwiw, I don't care if you're my friend either, but your reputation is important, especially if you're looking for non-biglaw work. in a smaller market, employers will ask your classmates about you and whether or not you'd be a good fit. just try to avoid being the classhole.

don't call me bitter for calling a spade a spade. i came into law school with my eyes wide open knowing that it could be a dangerous gamble. i'm at peace with my decision (class of 2011), but i'm happy to point out some things that should be considered.

good luck with your decision.


nothing i've said has given any indication to what my reputation will be among my peers. i am quite confident that being optimistic won't earn me the label of "classhole"

i wasn't calling you bitter. i was simply stating that my view doesn't make me self-righteous because it's not the common view on this board. YOU were never mentioned specifically

good luck with the rest of your career too, man. i hope you get what you want out of it :D

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:59 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
MTal wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:MTal

$100k is A LOT of debt, but so is the $60k financed by a dude pulling in $45 grand a year to buy a new BMW; which is worse? You might be able to touch more lives or combat the nations debt crisis by picketing high-end car dealerships rather than admonishing 0L's that have the same ambition you once held, but failed to realize.


Um, you're comparing a tangible asset to what is essentially a piece of paper. At least you can resell the Beamer if you're not happy with it and can partially get your money back. I'd like to see you try and do the same with a J.D.

Edit: I guess there have been a few J.D.'s for sale on e-bay. Can't speak as to their auction price though.


I would not go so far as to classify a Beamer as an asset (unless you are using it for a paper route or staging bikini models on it for a photo shoot). That piece of paper/JD that you speak of will certainly afford you the opportunity to obtain "assets". Our lives are surrounded by intangibles that have value; in the corporate world it is called Goodwill/Brand Equity and in education its called a degree. I'm sure that if any of us had to have an operation we would hope the man holding the knife has a few "pieces of paper" (hopefully not purchased on e-bay).


While Med school graduates can cure sick people, Music graduates know how to play instruments, and Engineering/Accounting graduates know how to do Engineering/accounting, not a single law student graduating from law school knows how to practice law. Lawyering is only learned on the job, the J.D. by itself does not provide ANY of the practical skills lawyers need to practice law. This is in fact one of the main gripes of law students graduating today - that their education did not in fact prepare them for the practice of law, but merely focused on theory and intellectual games, which has little if anything to do with being a real lawyer.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:59 pm

MTal wrote:
DannyJames wrote:
MTal wrote:
DannyJames wrote: otherwise, kindly sit and read without commenting :D


You know this is just going to egg me on, right?


egg you on or not, provide stats for your argument. i'd LOVE to see them.


Are you fucking kidding me?


Actually, I'm not. You made an asinine comparison, and i'd love for you to actually provide stats for it. it's not that hard, you have all the answers right next to you in your all-knowing 1L "i got burned out and couldn't hack it" handbook

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:00 pm

Um, what kind of stats are you looking for, in particular?

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:05 pm

MTal wrote:Um, what kind of stats are you looking for, in particular?


i already asked for them, but you apparently were too busy coming up with your next "fact" that you overlooked that comment.

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UFMatt
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby UFMatt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:07 pm

The debt of law school may be daunting, but you only live once. For me it's worth the financial hit to give myself different career options. I understand that law will be a struggle, but you don't want to be on your deathbed wondering what could have been. For me, my PhD in science gives me the goal of IP law or FDA regulatory work. I'm sure that most people here have their own goals for law. It would be a shame to abandon them over a fear of some debt.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:09 pm

DannyJames wrote:
MTal wrote:Um, what kind of stats are you looking for, in particular?


i already asked for them, but you apparently were too busy coming up with your next "fact" that you overlooked that comment.


Google "Nathaniel Fick". Watch videos. Apply common sense.

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UFMatt
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby UFMatt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:10 pm

MTal wrote:While Med school graduates can cure sick people, Music graduates know how to play instruments, and Engineering/Accounting graduates know how to do Engineering/accounting, not a single law student graduating from law school knows how to practice law. Lawyering is only learned on the job, the J.D. by itself does not provide ANY of the practical skills lawyers need to practice law. This is in fact one of the main gripes of law students graduating today - that their education did not in fact prepare them for the practice of law, but merely focused on theory and intellectual games, which has little if anything to do with being a real lawyer.


Well a JD is what is required to get into the system. Life is about jumping through hoops. I would also suspect that someone with a JD would have a more solid background for being trained in the practice of law than someone without.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:15 pm

UFMatt wrote:
MTal wrote:While Med school graduates can cure sick people, Music graduates know how to play instruments, and Engineering/Accounting graduates know how to do Engineering/accounting, not a single law student graduating from law school knows how to practice law. Lawyering is only learned on the job, the J.D. by itself does not provide ANY of the practical skills lawyers need to practice law. This is in fact one of the main gripes of law students graduating today - that their education did not in fact prepare them for the practice of law, but merely focused on theory and intellectual games, which has little if anything to do with being a real lawyer.


Well a JD is what is required to get into the system. Life is about jumping through hoops. I would also suspect that someone with a JD would have a more solid background for being trained in the practice of law than someone without.


If you're going to use logic and sound reasoning, you're not welcome here :mrgreen:

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Haven
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Haven » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:17 pm

MTal- What do you think would have happened if you stayed in LS? Do you ever regret leaving?
You seem to be doing something you really like now from your posts, but do you ever wonder how things would be different if you stuck with it?

Your posts seem to warn 0Ls not to make the same mistake that you have, which is great. Hasnt that mistake lead you ultimately down the right path though (and if you didnt end up going to LS, dont you think you would have wondered)? Maybe to that you would say that wondering is better than being in the hole for tens of thousands.

Did you think that if you didnt graduate in the top 1/3 of your class, you wouldnt get a "decent" job (or perhaps that it wouldnt be worth the investment)?

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General Tso
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby General Tso » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:22 pm

MTal why did you ignore my PM?

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thinkbig
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby thinkbig » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:25 pm

Wait a minute.... Bart's teacher's name is Krabappel? All this time I've been calling her Krandle and making an idiot of myself! Why didn't anyone tell me?!

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:27 pm

MTal wrote:
DannyJames wrote:
MTal wrote:Um, what kind of stats are you looking for, in particular?


i already asked for them, but you apparently were too busy coming up with your next "fact" that you overlooked that comment.


Google "Nathaniel Fick". Watch videos. Apply common sense.


Done, not helping your argument

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:28 pm

Haven wrote:MTal- What do you think would have happened if you stayed in LS? Do you ever regret leaving?


Of course he does, why else would he be roaming the forums of TLS

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:32 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
Haven wrote:MTal- What do you think would have happened if you stayed in LS? Do you ever regret leaving?


Of course he does, why else would he be roaming the forums of TLS


one can only assume...

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:36 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
Haven wrote:MTal- What do you think would have happened if you stayed in LS? Do you ever regret leaving?


Of course he does, why else would he be roaming the forums of TLS


Right, I really regret the opportunity of going tens of thousands more in debt for the "opportunity" of a small chance to some day work in shitlaw. Good lord, what WAS I thinking!

adamlippes
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby adamlippes » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:42 pm

...
Last edited by adamlippes on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DannyJames
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DannyJames » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:43 pm

MTal wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
Haven wrote:MTal- What do you think would have happened if you stayed in LS? Do you ever regret leaving?


Of course he does, why else would he be roaming the forums of TLS


Right, I really regret the opportunity of going tens of thousands more in debt for the "opportunity" of a small chance to some day work in shitlaw. Good lord, what WAS I thinking!


I actually agree with you on this one. you said yourself you couldn't do it...so why keep going? If you had done better you would have stayed, you said. which means you at least could see your limitations at being a successful lawyer. the important factor to remember here is this is YOUR situation, and not everyone (nobody i hope) is like you. I wish you no ill-will and hope you are happy with whatever you are doing

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General Tso
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby General Tso » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:49 pm

What you guys (MTal, et al) don't seem to realize is that everyone's situation is different. Some people just want to get paid 60k+ and for them it makes no difference whether they are nurses, plumbers, welders, or whatever. Some people have engineering or technical degrees that will allow them to make 75k+ without any advanced education (that point is debatable, but I'll concede this for the time being). Others may have Finance degrees from Ivy schools or some kind of connections to Wall St. and can get paid that way. Some can afford to go to whatever grad school they want and others cannot. Some need to make 160k and others will be happy working a desk job at 40k. Some people have a genuine interest in studying the law or doing public interest or something else with their JD.

See where I am going with this? There are a million different variables that factor into each person's decision about whether or not to choose law school. You cannot reduce it to a simple formula like LAW FIELD DEAD. NO JOBS. ALL NON-T14 TERRIBLE CHOICES. DEBT = KISS OF DEATH.

Everybody is going to think they are an exception to the "rule" that you guys are espousing here, so why bother?




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