Why You Should Go To Law School

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BeastCoastHype
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Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby BeastCoastHype » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:53 am

There are so many negative threads on here, I just wanted to post an honest, positive one about my law school experience. I love it here. I've made tons of new, funny, interesting, intelligent friends and my classes are great. There is a lot of reading involved, but it's interesting. If you think you will enjoy law school and have the grades and test scores to get into the one you want and think is a good investment, stop listening to the losers and dive in.

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DubPoker
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby DubPoker » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:23 am

Although, if you have a higher GPA/LSAT then me don't even bother to apply...

law school is clearly not for you!

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:26 am

How much money have you spent?

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Dignan
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Dignan » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:34 am

BeastCoastHype wrote:There are so many negative threads on here, I just wanted to post an honest, positive one about my law school experience. I love it here. I've made tons of new, funny, interesting, intelligent friends and my classes are great. There is a lot of reading involved, but it's interesting. If you think you will enjoy law school and have the grades and test scores to get into the one you want and think is a good investment, stop listening to the losers and dive in.

I appreciate the positive tone, but I think that most people, myself included, aren't worried about having a bad experience during law school. If I end up going, I expect law school to be a lot of fun (and hard work, of course). What I am worried about, and what I think most other people are worried about, is the tough job market after law school. There is some reason to have a less-than-optimistic outlook about finding good jobs after law school.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:01 am

I am not worried about the job market after law school, because abstract cyclical phenomena don't dictate my personal decisions. I guess I'm lucky in that I already have a career that pays quite well, and I'll only be expanding my opportunities within my field by getting a JD. I'll probably also get another advanced degree in CS. In any case, I'm going back to school because I love being in school. The only part I'm not going to like is these maniacal people desperate to get the highest GPA at any cost so they can score their coveted "biglaw" jobs.

I don't get this mentality... but it's evident all over these boards. First of all, these $160K jobs - the "biglaw" jobs they want to land - these jobs aren't even that amazing in terms of salary... considering what you have to do to get them. You can get a job in TV production that pays better without any degree - not even a bachelors is required. Learn final cut. It's a way easier path to "riches." Or you could be a shooter on a reality TV show and bring in $800/day plus per diem, plus travel expenses... I know a makeup artists who charge $2000/day. You could also, like me, figure out how to program computers. You don't need school for that... everything you need is right in front of you... I taught myself (almost) everything I know about programming, and I made $2500/week - for a 35 hour (or so) week - every week for 3 years - doing IT / web production for a network TV show. It was obscene how easy my job was. Teaching myself several computer languages and working as a sysadmin obviously took time and effort, but I was making money the whole way through. It was all "on-the-job training." I never built up massive debt, and the jobs I ended up with were cushy, high paying, flexible, and easy. These aren't things I've heard about working in biglaw...

Anyway - you're never going to *really* make money (in the grand scheme of things) working a salary job for someone else... yet all these supposedly smart kids are practically killing each other for a chance at middle class salary jobs. Seems like most applicants to top law schools are well brain washed.

That said, having a legal education is worth something! A JD can be a great asset for an entrepreneur, and if you want to be an entrepreneur and *really* make money - you can't be afraid of a little debt. You've got to risk money to make money, and it's always best to risk someone else's. Happily, the government is more than willing to let you borrow your way through law school.

I hope this economy does successfully dissuade the kind of people who are attracted to law school because they want "high paying" salary jobs in "big law." These people seem exceedingly boring, immature, and douche-y. I'd prefer to be in school with intellectually curious, innovative people whose interests are interdisciplinary and who aspire to more than joining the great frat party in the sky(scrapers).

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:14 am

j2d3 wrote:I hope this economy does successfully dissuade the kind of people who are attracted to law school because they want "high paying" salary jobs in "big law." These people seem exceedingly boring, immature, and douche-y. I'd prefer to be in school with intellectually curious, innovative people whose interests are interdisciplinary and who aspire to more than joining the great frat party in the sky(scrapers).

I think that's part of the tuition boom - when you see UCLA charging almost twice as much for year for law school as for med school - which requires labs, etc - you know it is about saturation of the market. I also think people's new found respect of debt coupled with rising tuitions and an unsure job market will start weeding out some of the legally blonde wannabes and people who just do law because they don't have a direction. Or at least those people will be more funnelled down lower and lower in the school chain. People willing to take on the 150-200K will be doing it because its what they want for the next 40+ years, and they look forward to an all-encompassing career rather than just thinking they'll have a cool, high-paying job.

Or not.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:38 am

ruleser - your point about tuition prices being market driven is exactly right, but also exactly what I find so confounding... why are there still SO MANY people willing to spend $150k in loans to *maybe* get a $100K job? it's really a pathetic aspiration!

If those people would go away, (and I guess the more those jobs disappear, the more those people will disappear from the pool of law applicants), then perhaps tuition prices would drop a bit... although I guess they never really drop, so at least maybe they'd stop going up. Still - the jobs *are* disappearing, and I'm saying these jobs are not even that high paying to begin with, so what the hell is driving these people? they are clamouring for a chance at an awfully boring-sounding job that pays well - but not great. why? their blind, dogged persistence is driving up law school prices, making it difficult to even be accepted at schools that once had great academic environments but now are polluted by anti-intellectual twits who can take standardized tests well... given a solid year of study and three chances... and who can get As in all their classes. these "skills" are actually indicators of just the perfect sort of robotic nimrod who pushes papers very well for countless hours at a relatively low cost. i don't want to go to school with people like that.

which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:27 am

j2d3 wrote:which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?

A question I've wondered - would Yale be better/freer thinkers, or better reciters? I think it's somewhere in the T20 - below that, I think you get to people trying to get it right. I would bet a Yale, maybe Harvard, Berkeley are the three where people are most into not just recounting but breaking new ground - with maybe Yale (since it's so academia/theory focused) and Berkeley (since it's, well, Berkeley, and open to all sorts of new thinking) the two top. Interested if others have a different opinion. I'd guess Chicago is the worst - more indoctrinated that liberating of thought. And the others are more just high quality instruction, with some room for expounding.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:27 am

j2d3 wrote:which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?

A question I've wondered - would Yale be better/freer thinkers, or better reciters? I think it's somewhere in the T20 - below that, I think you get to people trying to get it right. I would bet a Yale, maybe Harvard, Berkeley are the three where people are most into not just recounting but breaking new ground - with maybe Yale (since it's so academia/theory focused) and Berkeley (since it's, well, Berkeley, and open to all sorts of new thinking) the two top. Interested if others have a different opinion. I'd guess Chicago is the worst - more indoctrinated that liberating of thought. And the others are more just high quality instruction, with some room for expounding.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:03 am

Yeah, I think its Yale or Berkeley. Unless I get 178 or so on lsat I have almost no chance with mother Yale. Berkeley is my reach. I think I'd like ucla and uci, barring Berkeley... I'm open to the rest but have a hard time considering them realistically. I love la. It would take something like Yale or. Berkeley to uproot me again. Where do u want 2 go most?

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Borhas
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Borhas » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:14 am

j2d3 wrote:ruleser - your point about tuition prices being market driven is exactly right, but also exactly what I find so confounding... why are there still SO MANY people willing to spend $150k in loans to *maybe* get a $100K job? it's really a pathetic aspiration!

If those people would go away, (and I guess the more those jobs disappear, the more those people will disappear from the pool of law applicants), then perhaps tuition prices would drop a bit... although I guess they never really drop, so at least maybe they'd stop going up. Still - the jobs *are* disappearing, and I'm saying these jobs are not even that high paying to begin with, so what the hell is driving these people? they are clamouring for a chance at an awfully boring-sounding job that pays well - but not great. why? their blind, dogged persistence is driving up law school prices, making it difficult to even be accepted at schools that once had great academic environments but now are polluted by anti-intellectual twits who can take standardized tests well... given a solid year of study and three chances... and who can get As in all their classes. these "skills" are actually indicators of just the perfect sort of robotic nimrod who pushes papers very well for countless hours at a relatively low cost. i don't want to go to school with people like that.

which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?


+all

awesome post, I'm often amazed at how profoundly stupid and ignorant so many of the high LSAT scorers can be (evidenced by this site)

I'm no entrepreneur, and definitely don't value money that much (want to be a prosecutor) but I'm looking for the same sort of schools. My thinking is, go to the schools with the highest quality of life... this is where the sane people would go. The robots can do well anywhere with a high ranking but good people will go places that are conducive to good life.

My list of these places are UC Davis and UC Irvine (my hypothesis is that people willing to make a risk are less likely to be the robotic types) Berkeley too probably but I can't go there so that's that. Stay away from the eliTTTist privates for the most part.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:02 am

MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


Shit. I came in this thread just to post "in before MTal". :(

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BeastCoastHype
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby BeastCoastHype » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:22 am

MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


Enough to go to a top 10 school. Where did you go again? Oh yeah, TTT against your own (usually condescending) advice. To be honest I'm surprised you still hang around on this board even though law school isn't part of your life anymore. Maybe JDUnderground would be a better fit?

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Bronte
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Bronte » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:24 am

j2d3 wrote:which schools do you think have the lowest percentage of these kind of drones and the highest percentage of legitimately intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... who are into theory and academia and policy issues... ?


Some of us are intellectually curious, engaged students who care about the law conceptually... and want biglaw.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:32 am

BeastCoastHype wrote:
MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


Enough to go to a top 10 school. Where did you go again? Oh yeah, TTT against your own (usually condescending) advice. To be honest I'm surprised you still hang around on this board even though law school isn't part of your life anymore. Maybe JDUnderground would be a better fit?


Wow, where to begin. I've never criticized anyone for going to a T10...most of my venom is directed at people in the chances forum who post "I haz 145 LSAT + 3.2 GPA in ENGRISH! Iz da LAW sKoOlz for mE?!" or "BLS or CaDoZo fur Innarnazhunal LaW?!". In fact I didn't go against my own advice, I went to a cheap State T2 (one of the cheapest in the country) and I in no way regret going since I had a blast last year and met many great peope, I just felt that continuing wasn't worth it.

The reason I hang around here is to provide a counterpoint to your wildly idealistic and naive perspective which I believe is all too prevalent and leads people down a primrose path to poverty.

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forza
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby forza » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:35 am

MTal wrote:
BeastCoastHype wrote:
MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


Enough to go to a top 10 school. Where did you go again? Oh yeah, TTT against your own (usually condescending) advice. To be honest I'm surprised you still hang around on this board even though law school isn't part of your life anymore. Maybe JDUnderground would be a better fit?


Wow, where to begin. I've never criticized anyone for going to a T10...most of my venom is directed at people in the chances forum who post "I haz 145 LSAT + 3.2 GPA in ENGRISH! Iz da LAW sKoOlz for mE?!" or "BLS or CaDoZo fur Innarnazhunal LaW?!". In fact I didn't go against my own advice, I went to [strike]a cheap State T2 (one of the cheapest in the country)[/strike] Thomas M. Cooley and I [strike]in no way[/strike] REALLY regret going since I [strike]had a blast last year and met many great peope[/strike] I am now thousands in debt and my family thinks I'm a huge douchebag, I just felt that continuing wasn't worth it.

The reason I hang around here is to provide a counterpoint to your wildly idealistic and naive perspective which I believe is all too prevalent and leads people down a primrose path to poverty.


FTFY. Ya bitter son of a bitch.

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MTal
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby MTal » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:38 am

forza wrote:
MTal wrote:
BeastCoastHype wrote:
MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


Enough to go to a top 10 school. Where did you go again? Oh yeah, TTT against your own (usually condescending) advice. To be honest I'm surprised you still hang around on this board even though law school isn't part of your life anymore. Maybe JDUnderground would be a better fit?


Wow, where to begin. I've never criticized anyone for going to a T10...most of my venom is directed at people in the chances forum who post "I haz 145 LSAT + 3.2 GPA in ENGRISH! Iz da LAW sKoOlz for mE?!" or "BLS or CaDoZo fur Innarnazhunal LaW?!". In fact I didn't go against my own advice, I went to [strike]a cheap State T2 (one of the cheapest in the country)[/strike] Thomas M. Cooley and I [strike]in no way[/strike] REALLY regret going since I [strike]had a blast last year and met many great peope[/strike] I am now thousands in debt and my family thinks I'm a huge douchebag, I just felt that continuing wasn't worth it.

The reason I hang around here is to provide a counterpoint to your wildly idealistic and naive perspective which I believe is all too prevalent and leads people down a primrose path to poverty.


FTFY. Ya bitter son of a bitch.


LOL! Thank you for that...however, you may want to think about being a little less defensive and more about addressing the substance of what I'm saying.

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j2d3
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby j2d3 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:54 am

Borhas wrote:I'm no entrepreneur, and definitely don't value money that much (want to be a prosecutor) but I'm looking for the same sort of schools. My thinking is, go to the schools with the highest quality of life... this is where the sane people would go. The robots can do well anywhere with a high ranking but good people will go places that are conducive to good life.

My list of these places are UC Davis and UC Irvine (my hypothesis is that people willing to make a risk are less likely to be the robotic types) Berkeley too probably but I can't go there so that's that. Stay away from the eliTTTist privates for the most part.


I'm thinking the same thing about Irvine. They have a highly regarded CS dept, they have Chereminsky, and a tiny class size. Even though I disagree with him on many levels, Dan Burk is interesting and I've learned a lot from his book re: patent law. (He's Irvine's tech focused law professor.) Also, no other law school is so small; one would get tremendous personal attention there. I'd love to be in on the ground floor something new and share the experience with others who have a pioneering spirit, and I agree that the risk factor will likely weed out the dronebots. Actually, the formation of Irvine and the scandal over Chereminsky's hire/fire/hiring was a major factor in inspiring me to consider law school at this stage in my life. Also, the scholarships they're offering are extreme. I just talked myself into Irvine. ;)

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Bronte
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Bronte » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:00 pm

j2d3 wrote:
Borhas wrote:I'm no entrepreneur, and definitely don't value money that much (want to be a prosecutor) but I'm looking for the same sort of schools. My thinking is, go to the schools with the highest quality of life... this is where the sane people would go. The robots can do well anywhere with a high ranking but good people will go places that are conducive to good life.

My list of these places are UC Davis and UC Irvine (my hypothesis is that people willing to make a risk are less likely to be the robotic types) Berkeley too probably but I can't go there so that's that. Stay away from the eliTTTist privates for the most part.


I'm thinking the same thing about Irvine. They have a highly regarded CS dept, they have Chereminsky, and a tiny class size. Even though I disagree with him on many levels, Dan Burk is interesting and I've learned a lot from his book re: patent law. (He's Irvine's tech focused law professor.) Also, no other law school is so small; one would get tremendous personal attention there. I'd love to be in on the ground floor something new and share the experience with others who have a pioneering spirit, and I agree that the risk factor will likely weed out the dronebots. Actually, the formation of Irvine and the scandal over Chereminsky's hire/fire/hiring was a major factor in inspiring me to consider law school at this stage in my life. Also, the scholarships they're offering are extreme. I just talked myself into Irvine. ;)


You could be the new Opera Soprano, but for Irvine.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:20 pm

j2d3 wrote:Yeah, I think its Yale or Berkeley. Unless I get 178 or so on lsat I have almost no chance with mother Yale. Berkeley is my reach. I think I'd like ucla and uci, barring Berkeley... I'm open to the rest but have a hard time considering them realistically. I love la. It would take something like Yale or. Berkeley to uproot me again. Where do u want 2 go most?

Not shockers here - Yale is my first choice - never had a real chance straight out thanks to GPA, but will give transfer a shot if I can do well enough 1L. With law and econ as a focus, I had thought Chicago, but actually lean more toward Berkeley for that (of course outside of HY) - I think Berkeley might be more open to new thinking about law/econ, while Chicago might just force the same line that has shown itself not to play out so well in reality. More possible with my numbers, UCLA has a solid law and econ prog that I wouldn't sneeze at.

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Sogui
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby Sogui » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:35 pm

ntzsch wrote:
MTal wrote:How much money have you spent?


haha *** as MTal's eyes go blank with disbelief***


That guy really is a piece of work... nobody can ever end up financially better off or happy as a lawyer... NOBODY!

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GATORTIM
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:45 pm

Dignan wrote: What I am worried about, and what I think most other people are worried about, is the tough job market after law school. There is some reason to have a less-than-optimistic outlook about finding good jobs after law school.


The job market will be tough regardless of your decision to attend LS or not. Your JD will last a lifetime and the economic downturn, in all likelihood, will not. If your intent is to wait until the economy gets better until you take on debt to further your education, then so be it, but the opportunity costs associated with delay coupled with the possibility that you may never go could outweigh your short-term struggle to repay your debt.

Yes $100k is a lot of money, but so is any major purchase in life and I choose to believe that an investment in myself will yield the greatest ROI. I have no qualms delaying the purchase of a home or a high-end auto in order to finance my legal career. $1,000/month (repayment of debt), IS NOT that much money if the rest of your finances are in order when you exit LS.

I think the main issue is not the expense of law school so much as it is the disparity between unrealistic expectations versus reality. Yes, it will be a struggle to secure a six-figure income practicing law, but what in the hell is easy nowadays?

Those that come to TLS to bash your plan of attending LS would probably be living in their parents basement regardless of their chosen occupation. Trust me, these people did not wake up one morning with the intention to crusade for our collective financial future by signing up for a TLS acct and posting gloomy stats and BS rants. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY career that is easily attainable or where those at the top did not make some type of significant sacrifice to control their destiny.

If you really want to practice law and have the enthusiasm and motivation to succeed, go for it! However, it is important that you realize that law (like 99% of everything else worth a shit) will be hard work.

Good Luck to all!!

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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby jimmyd11011 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:03 pm

j2d3 wrote:
Borhas wrote:I'm no entrepreneur, and definitely don't value money that much (want to be a prosecutor) but I'm looking for the same sort of schools. My thinking is, go to the schools with the highest quality of life... this is where the sane people would go. The robots can do well anywhere with a high ranking but good people will go places that are conducive to good life.

My list of these places are UC Davis and UC Irvine (my hypothesis is that people willing to make a risk are less likely to be the robotic types) Berkeley too probably but I can't go there so that's that. Stay away from the eliTTTist privates for the most part.


I'm thinking the same thing about Irvine. They have a highly regarded CS dept, they have Chereminsky, and a tiny class size. Even though I disagree with him on many levels, Dan Burk is interesting and I've learned a lot from his book re: patent law. (He's Irvine's tech focused law professor.) Also, no other law school is so small; one would get tremendous personal attention there. I'd love to be in on the ground floor something new and share the experience with others who have a pioneering spirit, and I agree that the risk factor will likely weed out the dronebots. Actually, the formation of Irvine and the scandal over Chereminsky's hire/fire/hiring was a major factor in inspiring me to consider law school at this stage in my life. Also, the scholarships they're offering are extreme. I just talked myself into Irvine. ;)


His name is Chemerinsky.

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ruleser
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby ruleser » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
Dignan wrote: What I am worried about, and what I think most other people are worried about, is the tough job market after law school. There is some reason to have a less-than-optimistic outlook about finding good jobs after law school.


The job market will be tough regardless of your decision to attend LS or not. Your JD will last a lifetime and the economic downturn, in all likelihood, will not. If your intent is to wait until the economy gets better until you take on debt to further your education, then so be it, but the opportunity costs associated with delay coupled with the possibility that you may never go could outweigh your short-term struggle to repay your debt.

Yes $100k is a lot of money, but so is any major purchase in life and I choose to believe that an investment in myself will yield the greatest ROI. I have no qualms delaying the purchase of a home or a high-end auto in order to finance my legal career. $1,000/month (repayment of debt), IS NOT that much money if the rest of your finances are in order when you exit LS.

I think the main issue is not the expense of law school so much as it is the disparity between unrealistic expectations versus reality. Yes, it will be a struggle to secure a six-figure income practicing law, but what in the hell is easy nowadays?

Those that come to TLS to bash your plan of attending LS would probably be living in their parents basement regardless of their chosen occupation. Trust me, these people did not wake up one morning with the intention to crusade for our collective financial future by signing up for a TLS acct and posting gloomy stats and BS rants. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY career that is easily attainable or where those at the top did not make some type of significant sacrifice to control their destiny.

If you really want to practice law and have the enthusiasm and motivation to succeed, go for it! However, it is important that you realize that law (like 99% of everything else worth a shit) will be hard work.

Good Luck to all!!

Well said. I went $40K into debt between my BA and MA for a degree much MUCH less thought of careerwise than a JD. Best investment I ever made. Without it, I'm an AA, maybe $40K a year. With it - and years of climbing/performing/working - I have a very solid career/salary/level.

The key is - and unfortunately, this is the part that can't be bought - to be good at what you do. You can work really hard, but if you're not good, it may not pay off anyway. But if you're good, doesn't matter the field - they may be laying off computer programmers, but if you're among the best in the field, you'll have work. Firms just laid off a bunch of lawyers - do you think they laid off the best ones?

As odd as it may sound, truly good employees are hard to find - good attitude, work ethic, abilities, and that little something that bridges the gap between ability/personality/ability to deal with clients, as well as reliability, trust worthiness, then there's inventiveness, ability to come up with new ideas, have a vision... if you have all of these things, they'll pay off eventually, even if you start out in some different direction. I got where I am taking a temp job meant to last a month.

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bumblebeetoona
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Re: Why You Should Go To Law School

Postby bumblebeetoona » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:07 pm

MTal wrote:The reason I hang around here is to provide a counterpoint to your wildly idealistic and naive perspective which I believe is all too prevalent and leads people down a primrose path to poverty.


I like you.




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